Eduardo Escobar featured on MILB.com

[fathom]

Balta, with your theory about freeing up money, how do you feel about the Sox basically unloading Buehrle and his huge contract for minimal parts this offseason?

[Balta1701]

Just like with Swisher, it seemed that KW jumped at the first offer that came across the phone for Vazquez. Now, you might say there's no way to know if that is true or not. However, for him to make a deal so early into the offseason, he must have had some interest in Flowers. The deal is a huge failure if Flowers is a bust because the organization acquired him with thoughts of him being their catcher of the future. We're a team with a 100 million dollar payroll, so we shouldn't be happy just to unload a player's salary for nothing.

Frankly, I would have jumped at the first offer that came across the plate where I didn't have to pay for Vazquez's contract either.

 

Of course, you're the one making the assumption here; that KW did either not give time to solicit other offers or passed up the chance to get better offers.

 

At least in the world I remember after the 08 season, I recall a situation where any team that was willing to take on the next 2 years of Javy's deal would have gotten him on a silver platter.

[RockRaines]

I'll be honest, to me, this seems like a very homeristic view of things to excuse KW for a bad trade. This could be what J4Life was talking about, but I don't want to speak for him. I'm sure KW had higher expectations for the trade than simply freeing up Javy's salary.

His expectations were most likely getting a starting catching prospect, some players with MLB potential and more money to add other impact pieces. At the time it was a very good move, and it could still very well end up being a decent move if Flowers ever becomes a everyday player. You cant evaluate trades in a vacuum in hindsight because not only do players change, but market conditions change as well.

[RockRaines]

Balta, with your theory about freeing up money, how do you feel about the Sox basically unloading Buehrle and his huge contract for minimal parts this offseason?

What do they do with the freed up salary? And what do you call "minimal parts?" If you mean possibly an MLB caliber minor leaguer ranked in the top 100 prospects list plus some other decent pieces, then yes, I would be in favor of it if they used his deferred salary wisely. If they needed his money to bring back Konerko and in the process pulled in some other potential impact players that require some seasoning, then it may actually be a good move. Of course based on the posts above, we couldnt even begin to evaluate the deal until 4-5 years down the line when hindsight can actually be used to grade the deal.

[Jordan4life_2007]

What do they do with the freed up salary? And what do you call "minimal parts?" If you mean possibly an MLB caliber minor leaguer ranked in the top 100 prospects list plus some other decent pieces, then yes, I would be in favor of it if they used his deferred salary wisely. If they needed his money to bring back Konerko and in the process pulled in some other potential impact players that require some seasoning, then it may actually be a good move. Of course based on the posts above, we couldnt even begin to evaluate the deal until 4-5 years down the line when hindsight can actually be used to grade the deal.

Isn't that the ultimate copout? If a trade ends badly it's ok because it looked good at the time?

[SoxAce]

Other than Ranger and elrockinmt, I don't know of anyone who posts here that fits your description of a chronic homer.

 

Shack and Greg for sure. I'd even put Heads on that list.

 

I'm sure I'm viewed as a pretty big homer around here, and I can't really dispute that.

 

Carry on...

[RockRaines]

Isn't that the ultimate copout? If a trade ends badly it's ok because it looked good at the time?

Define "ends badly". Trading bloated salaries for prospects and then reinvesting the money in the team is usually going to be very good short term. Of course alot of that will be forgotten if the team doesnt win the World Series immediately and if the prospects dont pan out to be the All Stars that everyone expects them to be.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Well, how did you want me to interpret this:

 

 

 

In the context of our argument, I assumed you meant that Vizquel's superior defense is what made this team start winning. If you meant something else, please do clarify.

 

Honestly if you read that far into it, there isn't really much to discuss, because you are going to read what you want to out of it anyway.

[NorthSideSox72]

Shack and Greg for sure. I'd even put Heads on that list.

 

 

 

Carry on...

Greg? Seriously? He's already talking about how badly the Twins will beat the Sox for the next decade.

 

[gatnom]

Honestly if you read that far into it, there isn't really much to discuss, because you are going to read what you want to out of it anyway.

 

Well, if you throw out sentences with apparently no meaning other than to contradict those with "chronic negativity," I can definitely agree with you on that.

[iamshack]

Shack and Greg for sure. I'd even put Heads on that list.

 

 

 

Carry on...

The thing is, I'm not like that with other sports. I am very critical of the Bears and Bulls.

 

I just happen to absolutely agree with Kenny's philosophy and management style.

 

On the other hand, I'm not just blindly supporting our players or trying to hang-on to fan favorites. I'm very critical of our players, just not our front office. Case in point, I have been advocating a John Danks trade since probably May and that is certainly not a viewpoint shared by most "chronic homers."

[witesoxfan]

Just to give a different perspective on Tyler Flowers season, here is JP Arencibia's first year in AAA (in the PCL) after he was rated the #43 prospect in the minors

.236/.284/.444/.728, K/BB of ~5, ~ 9.5 PA/XBH

 

In his second go around at AAA pitching this year, he destroyed the ball.

 

And here's Flowers first full year in AAA, after having a little success in AAA the year before

.220/.334/.434/.768, K/BB of ~2, ~10.5 PA/XBH

 

More strikeouts, but also more walks.

 

I don't think you can judge catchers quite the same in regards to other prospects simply because they have to deal with pitchers too, and in AAA, they are starting to deal with veteran pitchers who have already established themselves...I imagine they're harder to work with opposed to younger pitchers who are still learning how to throw and harness their stuff and that the catcher will spend more time with them learning what it's like to catch a pitcher with an established repertoire and not as much time figuring out their stroke.

 

Flowers is also only going to be 25 next season...not that he's really young or anything, but there is still time for him to establish himself at the major league level. I'm not worried about him yet, but the Sox really shouldn't trade him at this point with his stock as low as it is.

Edited October 21, 2010 by witesoxfan

[rockren]

Flowers is also only going to be 25 next season...not that he's really young or anything, but there is still time for him to establish himself at the major league level. I'm not worried about him yet, but the Sox really shouldn't trade him at this point with his stock as low as it is.

 

Would you make Ty Flowers the man or would you bring back AJ for 1yr/6 mil? (not sure if that's possible but I believe it would be).

 

I'd cut ties with AJ (one of my all time favorite WSox) and go to Spring Training with Flowers, Lucy and Phegley.

[witesoxfan]

Would you make Ty Flowers the man or would you bring back AJ for 1yr/6 mil? (not sure if that's possible but I believe it would be).

 

I'd cut ties with AJ (one of my all time favorite WSox) and go to Spring Training with Flowers, Lucy and Phegley.

 

There's no way I'm going into Spring Training with a catcher crew with that little experience. At the very least, I'd bring back Castro just to have an option that is semi-proven, and if Flowers works his way onto the roster, then that's the optimal scenario.

 

I also don't bring back AJ at that price...if I were to bring Pierzynski back, it would be at about $4 million. The Sox could also offer him arbitration and hope and pray that he signs elsewhere and the Sox get picks with him coming back for one more season if he does not sign elsewhere (which ultimately isn't the worst idea I've ever heard, though going that route seems to be about $3 million too expensive).

 

I don't think that Williams and company have enough confidence in Flowers to give him the reins next season.

[rockren]

I don't think that Williams and company have enough confidence in Flowers to give him the reins next season.

 

Me, either.

[witesoxfan]

Me, either.

 

I'm right there too. I think Flowers can be a starting catcher in the majors, but considering the Sox want to be competitive next year, and there are already as many holes as there are, you can't afford to have a black hole in that lineup anywhere, and Flowers could easily be that for the first month or two.

[rockren]

I'm right there too. I think Flowers can be a starting catcher in the majors, but considering the Sox want to be competitive next year, and there are already as many holes as there are, you can't afford to have a black hole in that lineup anywhere, and Flowers could easily be that for the first month or two.

 

I think what management is afraid of is the drop-off in calling the game behind the plate. If Flowers was given the shot from day 1...I don't think there would be much of a drop off it all from AJ offensively. Sure there would be a drop-off in average, but Flowers power at the Cell would be an upgrade over AJ IMHO.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think what management is afraid of is the drop-off in calling the game behind the plate. If Flowers was given the shot from day 1...I don't think there would be much of a drop off it all from AJ offensively. Sure there would be a drop-off in average, but Flowers power at the Cell would be an upgrade over AJ IMHO.

Guys like Castro, and even Lucy, should be able to help Flowers with the game calling aspect, if he's willing to learn. Castro has been around quite a while in the majors, and Lucy has been noted for years as being a guy that pitchers love to work with.

 

[bmags]

It's a valid point.

 

No, it really isn't.

[macsandz]

Escobar continues to impress: .342./.390/.526/.917 hit his second HR in 10 games yesterday.

[macsandz]

Baseball Prospectus taking notice:

 

Eduardo Escobar, SS, White Sox (AFL: Saguaros):

 

Shortstop prospects who really are shortstops are a rarity, and it's surprising the Escobar doesn't warrant more attention. The 21 year-old Venezuelan has above-average range and a plus-plus arm, and his bat started to show some signs of life in 2010, as Escobar showed a surprising ability to drive balls into the gap. In a system desperate for prospects, as a good defender with some offensive value, Escobar is the real deal.

[macsandz]

Hopefully he does pan out, but it's pretty hard to get excited about a guy who had a breakout year with a .315 OBP in single A, with not much power and who strikes out alot.

 

Prospect? Yes. Potential? Sure, mostly because of his defense. Rate of prospect? Average.

 

Not anymore.

 

Leads the AFL with 4HRS.

 

Baseball Prospectus "The more scouts see him, the more there is to like with plus defense and enough hitting ability to play every day."

Edited October 31, 2010 by bucket-of-suck

[bigruss]

Not anymore.

 

Leads the AFL with 4HRS.

 

Baseball Prospectus "The more scouts see him, the more there is to like with plus defense and enough hitting ability to play every day."

Lol, "enough hitting ability" still means the jury is out whether or not he'll make it as a fulltime player because of his bat. 4 home runs in the AFL does not change my stance at all that he needs to hit better at higher levels to prove he's going to be anything more than a UT.

[witesoxfan]

Ozzie Guillen had enough hitting ability to play at SS and he never had an OPS+ higher than 85.

[lostfan]

Ozzie Guillen had enough hitting ability to play at SS and he never had an OPS+ higher than 85.

Barely.