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[fathom]

we give up premium talent to get these guys and then dump 'em off on another team when ozzie doesn't like them for mediocre packages.

 

I couldn't agree more, it's probably been the most frustrating part of the last 3 years.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

we give up premium talent to get these guys and then dump 'em off on another team when ozzie doesn't like them for mediocre packages.

 

Really? Chris Young hasn't exactly been a star. He's had a couple decent seasons but i wouldn't say he's premium talent. Plus, it's not like Javy didn't continually s*** the bed in the clutch when he was here. Flowers and Gilmore were both highly thought of prospects from an organization that historically drafts well. It's hard to really complain too much about either end of that trade.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Really? Chris Young hasn't exactly been a star. He's had a couple decent seasons but i wouldn't say he's premium talent. Plus, it's not like Javy didn't continually s*** the bed in the clutch when he was here. Flowers and Gilmore were both highly thought of prospects from an organization that historically drafts well. It's hard to really complain too much about either end of that trade.

Young was viewed as a premium talent universally before we traded him. And he had been inconsistent until this year. Nowhere but by Whitesox people have Flowers and Gilmore been viewed as premium prospects.

[Balta1701]

Really? Chris Young hasn't exactly been a star. He's had a couple decent seasons but i wouldn't say he's premium talent. Plus, it's not like Javy didn't continually s*** the bed in the clutch when he was here. Flowers and Gilmore were both highly thought of prospects from an organization that historically drafts well. It's hard to really complain too much about either end of that trade.

In hindsight yeah...it's not like we were going to get better for Jittery Javy (we coulda had Melky Cabrera!), there's still some chance Flowers pans out, but overall, Young has been worth 8.2 WAR for the D-Backs, Javy contributed 14.9 WAR for the Sox. Javy got paid more but Young earned a big contract early that the D-Backs are "stuck with" if he doesn't pick it up.

 

You're going to be hard pressed to succeed arguing that either side won big time there.

[Balta1701]

Young was viewed as a premium talent universally before we traded him. And he had been inconsistent until this year. Nowhere but by Whitesox people have Flowers and Gilmore been viewed as premium prospects.

Tyler Flowers was #60 on Baseball America's list coming into 2010. Chris Young was ranked at #23 the season that we traded him away.

[iamshack]

I'm sure I'm viewed as a pretty big homer around here, and I can't really dispute that.

 

I think it's pretty difficult to honestly say that Kenny hasn't done a pretty solid job for us in terms of deals at the major league level though. Sure, there are some moves we would like to take back in hindsight, but I think that applies to every GM in baseball over the course of a long tenure like Kenny has had.

 

That being said, I find it a bit disappointing that when a prospect of ours is hyped a bit, there are those that will immediately discount him as flawed and overrated.

 

Even more disappointing to me is the fact that often times, those posters that pointed out the flaws in those prospects are the first to criticize Kenny when that player is later traded.

 

Seems a bit hypocritical in my opinion.

[bigruss]

I'm sure I'm viewed as a pretty big homer around here, and I can't really dispute that.

 

I think it's pretty difficult to honestly say that Kenny hasn't done a pretty solid job for us in terms of deals at the major league level though. Sure, there are some moves we would like to take back in hindsight, but I think that applies to every GM in baseball over the course of a long tenure like Kenny has had.

 

That being said, I find it a bit disappointing that when a prospect of ours is hyped a bit, there are those that will immediately discount him as flawed and overrated.

 

Even more disappointing to me is the fact that often times, those posters that pointed out the flaws in those prospects are the first to criticize Kenny when that player is later traded.

 

Seems a bit hypocritical in my opinion.

A fan will almost always critiicze their own prospects more than others because they hear about them the most and will have the chance to see or read about the flaws.

 

Just because one points out a flaw or doesn't agree that the prospect is a top 50 or whatever, doesn't mean that they feel like the trade was the best option for the team.

[iamshack]

A fan will almost always critiicze their own prospects more than others because they hear about them the most and will have the chance to see or read about the flaws.

 

Just because one points out a flaw or doesn't agree that the prospect is a top 50 or whatever, doesn't mean that they feel like the trade was the best option for the team.

I'm certainly not one to think the two opinions are mutually exclusive.

 

All I'm saying is that the "extreme" perspective some have mentioned from time to time comes from some that immediately and many times unfairly discount the talents of some of our prospects while they remain in our system, and then once that player is traded, those flaws seem to disappear in the minds of those who criticize the deal. There has to be a certain reasonableness that seems to be missing when it comes to evaluating our organization and those in positions of decision-making authority.

[bigruss]

I'm certainly not one to think the two opinions are mutually exclusive.

 

All I'm saying is that the "extreme" perspective some have mentioned from time to time comes from some that immediately and many times unfairly discount the talents of some of our prospects while they remain in our system, and then once that player is traded, those flaws seem to disappear in the minds of those who criticize the deal. There has to be a certain reasonableness that seems to be missing when it comes to evaluating our organization and those in positions of decision-making authority.

Some people love to hate and criticize, they just do. Just like some people will take whatever KW, JR, or Ozzie take as the one and only truth.

[fathom]

That being said, I find it a bit disappointing that when a prospect of ours is hyped a bit, there are those that will immediately discount him as flawed and overrated.

 

Even more disappointing to me is the fact that often times, those posters that pointed out the flaws in those prospects are the first to criticize Kenny when that player is later traded.

 

Seems a bit hypocritical in my opinion.

 

There's been plenty of prospects that I've been on the bandwagon for, most notably Beckham and others. What frustrates me is when some of the people on this board don't realize that just because a player is a decent prospect in our system, that doesn't mean they're actually considered a prospect in the overall scheme of MLB. One of my favorite things to say during trade deadline talk is that we shouldn't trade some of our prospects (perfect example is Morel), as the player is probably more valuable to the Sox than they are as a throw-in in another deal because the other team won't value them as high. I do have to say that Morel's #11 ranking in BA for his minor league division (AA, I think) was impressive, as the list was loaded with prospect superstars.

[Balta1701]

There's been plenty of prospects that I've been on the bandwagon for, most notably Beckham and others. What frustrates me is when some of the people on this board don't realize that just because a player is a decent prospect in our system, that doesn't mean they're actually considered a prospect in the overall scheme of MLB. One of my favorite things to say during trade deadline talk is that we shouldn't trade some of our prospects (perfect example is Morel), as the player is probably more valuable to the Sox than they are as a throw-in in another deal because the other team won't value them as high. I do have to say that Morel's #11 ranking in BA for his minor league division (AA, I think) was impressive, as the list was loaded with prospect superstars.

But that argues quite effectively that the statement Morel should not be a throw-in in another deal is 100% correct.

[fathom]

But that argues quite effectively that the statement Morel should not be a throw-in in another deal is 100% correct.

 

No idea what this is asking, and now I'm concerned I didn't articulate my post as accurately as I wanted. Another thing that frustrates me about how some perceive our minor league system is an argument like this "we might not have good starting pitching in the minors, but we have a handful of good relief arms". No one really cares about relievers in the minors.

[Balta1701]

No idea what this is asking, and now I'm concerned I didn't articulate my post as accurately as I wanted. Another thing that frustrates me about how some perceive our minor league system is an argument like this "we might not have good starting pitching in the minors, but we have a handful of good relief arms". No one really cares about relievers in the minors.

You said:

 

1. People say "Morel shouldn't be used as a throw-in in a trade because he has a lot of value to us".

2. This statement angers you.

3. You point out that other people actually do seem to value Morel somewhat highly, based on the ranking you gave.

4. You took this to mean that Morel has value to other teams.

5. The step you missed...if Morel has significant value to other teams, then going back to 1; he shouldn't be used just as a "Throw-in" in a deal. He ought to be only dealt if he nets something of value back directly.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

In hindsight yeah...it's not like we were going to get better for Jittery Javy (we coulda had Melky Cabrera!), there's still some chance Flowers pans out, but overall, Young has been worth 8.2 WAR for the D-Backs, Javy contributed 14.9 WAR for the Sox. Javy got paid more but Young earned a big contract early that the D-Backs are "stuck with" if he doesn't pick it up.

 

You're going to be hard pressed to succeed arguing that either side won big time there.

 

My point was countering the argument that it was another of KW's "awful moves"

 

[fathom]

You said:

 

1. People say "Morel shouldn't be used as a throw-in in a trade because he has a lot of value to us".

2. This statement angers you.

3. You point out that other people actually do seem to value Morel somewhat highly, based on the ranking you gave.

4. You took this to mean that Morel has value to other teams.

5. The step you missed...if Morel has significant value to other teams, then going back to 1; he shouldn't be used just as a "Throw-in" in a deal. He ought to be only dealt if he nets something of value back directly.

 

I probably shouldn't have used Morel as my example, as his status actually blew up this season as a prospect. A better example would have been Flowers after last season. His stock dropped around baseball, but he was actually still a very important prospect for the Sox due to the impending FA status of AJP. There were a lot of other catching prospects ranked above Flowers (the 100 Yankees catching prospects, Ramos, Castro, etc.), so if he was in a deal, it might seem to the Sox like they're giving up a lot but the other teams likely don't value him as much.

[fathom]

My point was countering the argument that it was another of KW's "awful moves"

 

Can't we just say the Javy deal was awful because we got virtually no Major League production so far from the 4 players we acquired, with the center piece of the deal being a bust so far?

[Balta1701]

Can't we just say the Javy deal was awful because we got virtually no Major League production so far from the 4 players we acquired, with the center piece of the deal being a bust so far?

Well, no, because we still moved $22 million/2 years of salary, and while we lost potentially good production in 2009, we avoided paying that kind of money for a guy worth about as much as Kotsay in 2010.

[fathom]

Well, no, because we still moved $22 million/2 years of salary, and while we lost potentially good production in 2009, we avoided paying that kind of money for a guy worth about as much as Kotsay in 2010.

 

I'll be honest, to me, this seems like a very homeristic view of things to excuse KW for a bad trade. This could be what J4Life was talking about, but I don't want to speak for him. I'm sure KW had higher expectations for the trade than simply freeing up Javy's salary.

[Balta1701]

I'll be honest, to me, this seems like a very homeristic view of things to excuse KW for a bad trade. This could be what J4Life was talking about, but I don't want to speak for him. I'm sure KW had higher expectations for the trade than simply freeing up Javy's salary.

After jow Javy pitched down the stretch in 2008, "Dumping Javy Vazquez's salary on someone else for whatever beans we can get" was at the top of everyone's list, probably including yours. Getting a backup or two and maybe a guy with a little bit of catching talent would be a solid bonus.

[gatnom]

So where did I say that it did?

 

Well, how did you want me to interpret this:

 

Not really. We have a team full of ground ball pitchers. The difference in this team between Vizquel and Teahen was night and day.

 

In the context of our argument, I assumed you meant that Vizquel's superior defense is what made this team start winning. If you meant something else, please do clarify.

 

[iamshack]

I'll be honest, to me, this seems like a very homeristic view of things to excuse KW for a bad trade. This could be what J4Life was talking about, but I don't want to speak for him. I'm sure KW had higher expectations for the trade than simply freeing up Javy's salary.

The key to that deal is and always will be Tyler Flowers. This is how every trade for prospects works out, and why it is so difficult to deal with prospects. Some of them pan out, some of them don't.

 

I've been trying to hammer this point through to the "pro-development" guys around here over and over, but not one ever addresses the downsides of trying to develop your own talent with assets that have a huge fail rate. There are so many costs associated with this beyond what anyone here has pointed out. What we have seen with Beckham and Flowers, amongst some others, is nothing compared to trying to keep 6-8 guys in the picture and have any clue what your collective team is going to perform like.

 

Anyways, I digress...I'm not willing to write off Flowers just yet. Let's see where he is 4-5 years from now before we really know what we've got here.

[Jordan4life_2007]

After jow Javy pitched down the stretch in 2008, "Dumping Javy Vazquez's salary on someone else for whatever beans we can get" was at the top of everyone's list, probably including yours. Getting a backup or two and maybe a guy with a little bit of catching talent would be a solid bonus.

No, that's not a bonus. And who is everyone? Us? As Ozzie likes to remind us whenever he's questioned: he

making millions while the rest of us kill ourselves for minimum wage, or whatever it was he said. In other words the fans don't matter. Well that is until KW starts crying bankruptcy. But that's another story.

[fathom]

The key to that deal is and always will be Tyler Flowers. This is how every trade for prospects works out, and why it is so difficult to deal with prospects. Some of them pan out, some of them don't.

 

I've been trying to hammer this point through to the "pro-development" guys around here over and over, but not one ever addresses the downsides of trying to develop your own talent with assets that have a huge fail rate. There are so many costs associated with this beyond what anyone here has pointed out. What we have seen with Beckham and Flowers, amongst some others, is nothing compared to trying to keep 6-8 guys in the picture and have any clue what your collective team is going to perform like.

 

Anyways, I digress...I'm not willing to write off Flowers just yet. Let's see where he is 4-5 years from now before we really know what we've got here.

 

I'm not ready to write off Flowers either, but sadly, the Sox very well could be. We heard how down they were about him during ST of last year, and after this year's dismal season, who knows what opportunities they'll give him. Like you said, Flowers was the key to the deal, and if he doesn't pan out, then the trade was a huge failure.

[Balta1701]

I'm not ready to write off Flowers either, but sadly, the Sox very well could be. We heard how down they were about him during ST of last year, and after this year's dismal season, who knows what opportunities they'll give him. Like you said, Flowers was the key to the deal, and if he doesn't pan out, then the trade was a huge failure.

How in the world would you have called that a huge failure? Was keeping Javy Vazquez in 2009 a better option, or were there people who were going to pay a better price?

[fathom]

How in the world would you have called that a huge failure? Was keeping Javy Vazquez in 2009 a better option, or were there people who were going to pay a better price?

 

Just like with Swisher, it seemed that KW jumped at the first offer that came across the phone for Vazquez. Now, you might say there's no way to know if that is true or not. However, for him to make a deal so early into the offseason, he must have had some interest in Flowers. The deal is a huge failure if Flowers is a bust because the organization acquired him with thoughts of him being their catcher of the future. We're a team with a 100 million dollar payroll, so we shouldn't be happy just to unload a player's salary for nothing.