R. Soriano, Fielder, Kemp mentioned in connection w/ Sox

[Balta1701]

I'd be shocked if they add the $45M in payroll you are suggesting.

 

I could be wrong, we'll see in April.

Frankly, I don't think there's a payroll number Detroit could put up next year that would surprise me. They could put up $70 million, a $60 million decrease from last year, and I'd think "Yeah, that makes sense". They could sign everyone and I'd think "Yeah, that makes sense". I don't think I'd ever have expected that franchise to race their team salary from $46 million in 2004 to $137 million in 2008, but it happened.

[balfanman]

People here tend to think that a person's high net worth means that they can, or will, spend a ton of money. First of all, a big part of Illitch's net worth is tied up in corporations - and therefore not highly liquid, or even usable in the way you describe. Second, if you read articles the past year or two, the Tigers have made clear they are losing more and more money on the Tigers and won't be spending tons of money. Being rich doesn't mean you have a ton of money to spend, and even if you do, you may not want to.

 

Isn't there some kind of rule among the owners that you cannot spend wildly without the revenue coming in? In other words the franchise has to be at least close to breaking even.

 

The Yankees, for example, spend lots of money, but they also have a lot coming in.

[3E8]

People here tend to think that a person's high net worth means that they can, or will, spend a ton of money. First of all, a big part of Illitch's net worth is tied up in corporations - and therefore not highly liquid, or even usable in the way you describe. Second, if you read articles the past year or two, the Tigers have made clear they are losing more and more money on the Tigers and won't be spending tons of money. Being rich doesn't mean you have a ton of money to spend, and even if you do, you may not want to.

The articles have been clear that the Tigers have lost money, almost $30M in 2009 to be exact, yet their actions have not indicated they will curtail spending. After a $30M loss in '09, the Tigers committed to over $100M in new contracts in the '10 offseason between Verlander, Valverde, Damon, and Laird. Last week they signed Inge to a new 2-year/$11.5M deal. Detroit as a city has been hit hard. But so far we've seen it hasn't affected Ilitch's willingness to pour money into the organization (which he played for) and I don't see why we should believe they are going to cut back given recent history

[NorthSideSox72]

Isn't there some kind of rule among the owners that you cannot spend wildly without the revenue coming in? In other words the franchise has to be at least close to breaking even.

 

The Yankees, for example, spend lots of money, but they also have a lot coming in.

I don't know of such a rule, and I doubt that would be enforceable due to contracts on the books. In the case of DET for example, if they see a big drop in revenue, they still have expensive contracts on the books. Nothing can really be done about that.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

The articles have been clear that the Tigers have lost money, almost $30M in 2009 to be exact, yet their actions have not indicated they will curtail spending. After a $30M loss in '09, the Tigers committed to over $100M in new contracts in the '10 offseason between Verlander, Valverde, Damon, and Laird. Last week they signed Inge to a new 2-year/$11.5M deal. Detroit as a city has been hit hard. But so far we've seen it hasn't affected Ilitch's willingness to pour money into the organization (which he played for) and I don't see why we should believe they are going to cut back given recent history

I see what you are saying, I guess I just see something different going on. We'll see soon how this goes.

 

[balfanman]

I don't know of such a rule, and I doubt that would be enforceable due to contracts on the books. In the case of DET for example, if they see a big drop in revenue, they still have expensive contracts on the books. Nothing can really be done about that.

 

I thought that I read somewhere, this board I thought, that a team can only lose money on an average of 2 out of 10 years or something like that. Maybe I'm just imaging it. They do say that the first thing that you lose as you get older is your memory and the second is ..........I can't remember the other 2. Oh well.

[bigruss]

I thought that I read somewhere, this board I thought, that a team can only lose money on an average of 2 out of 10 years or something like that. Maybe I'm just imaging it. They do say that the first thing that you lose as you get older is your memory and the second is ..........I can't remember the other 2. Oh well.

The second is....caring?

 

 

[southsider2k5]

I'd be shocked if they add the $45M in payroll you are suggesting.

 

I could be wrong, we'll see in April.

 

The big problem is that all of that spending has gotten them nothing. I can't see it keeping up with the crash in the economy there.

[Balta1701]

The big problem is that all of that spending has gotten them nothing. I can't see it keeping up with the crash in the economy there.

I don't know if I'd say it's gotten them "Nothing". 7 years ago, that team lost 120 games. They were the legit laughingstock of every team in the MLB except for the one team they beat 10 times. They went out from that point saying they were willing to overpay to get back to a level of respectability, and they had to do so repeatedly (IRod, Ordonez). They got themselves a world series appearance out of it, and are now considered a regular player in the AL Central, even if they've struggled to close the deal. The team's value increased from $240 million in 2004 to $375 million last year, according to Forbes.

[southsider2k5]

I don't know if I'd say it's gotten them "Nothing". 7 years ago, that team lost 120 games. They were the legit laughingstock of every team in the MLB except for the one team they beat 10 times. They went out from that point saying they were willing to overpay to get back to a level of respectability, and they had to do so repeatedly (IRod, Ordonez). They got themselves a world series appearance out of it, and are now considered a regular player in the AL Central, even if they've struggled to close the deal. The team's value increased from $240 million in 2004 to $375 million last year, according to Forbes.

 

0 World Series titles 0 division titles 1 playoff birth.

 

Also the teams value is exactly worthless when it comes to how much payroll a team can, or will, spend.

[Balta1701]

0 World Series titles 0 division titles 1 playoff birth.

 

Also the teams value is exactly worthless when it comes to how much payroll a team can, or will, spend.

But you can't say they got "Nothing" in return.

[southsider2k5]

But you can't say they got "Nothing" in return.

 

That is exactly what is said about our run since 2006. how is that any different?

[bigruss]

That is exactly what is said about our run since 2006. how is that any different?

We haven't been back to the World Series?

[Balta1701]

That is exactly what is said about our run since 2006. how is that any different?

Well, for one, we were starting with a playoff-caliber team while they were starting at 120 losses. They also have had to deal with a much bigger economic hit to their city. And anyway...I'm not one of the ones saying the Sox haven't accomplished anything since 05, because they've been competitive almost every year.

[iamshack]

I really don't understand how anyone with knowledge of the White Sox payroll committments could believe we would be major players this offseason. Barring some sequence of huge trades, we'll be signing a few guys off the scrap heap and maybe signing PK.

 

The money just isn't there this offseason.

 

Now that doesn't mean KW doesn't pull off a deal for a player such as Kemp, but it would have to be a high-risk/high-reward type deal for someone like Kemp or BJ Upton or someone who is not quite meeting his capabilities and management is impatient with him.

[greg775]

The Sox have plenty of money to spend. Especially if PK is off the books.

 

 

I really don't understand how anyone with knowledge of the White Sox payroll committments could believe we would be major players this offseason. Barring some sequence of huge trades, we'll be signing a few guys off the scrap heap and maybe signing PK.

 

The money just isn't there this offseason.

 

Now that doesn't mean KW doesn't pull off a deal for a player such as Kemp, but it would have to be a high-risk/high-reward type deal for someone like Kemp or BJ Upton or someone who is not quite meeting his capabilities and management is impatient with him.

 

If Konerko is off the books we have another major hole to fill. Viciedo seems to me to be a DH more than a 1B. Our 1B defense will be atrocious.

I agree with shack's post. I just hope we get rid of this year's scrap heap guys and add a new cast of characters. No Jones please. Find a way to get rid of Juan Pierre. Omar needs to be a coach; Oz will be too tempted to play him every day. He's too old for that.

 

Of all the names you mentioned, I want Fielder.

Edited October 28, 2010 by greg775

[Balta1701]

If Konerko is off the books we have another major hole to fill. Viciedo seems to me to be a DH more than a 1B. Our 1B defense will be atrocious.

I agree with shack's post. I just hope we get rid of this year's scrap heap guys and add a new cast of characters. No Jones please. Find a way to get rid of Juan Pierre. Omar needs to be a coach; Oz will be too tempted to play him every day. He's too old for that.

 

Of all the names you mentioned, I want Fielder.

First point:

 

1. How on Earth can we judge what Viciedo's 1b defense would be like? He's barely played there, he bounced back and forth between 1b and 3b this season to get at bats, despite his size he's probably going to wind up having better reactions/instincts/speed/range than PK14 because he is somewhat athletic.

 

2. How on Earth can you say "our 1b defense will be atrocious" and "I want Fielder" in the same post? Either you care about 1b defense or you don't.

[Balta1701]

I really don't understand how anyone with knowledge of the White Sox payroll committments could believe we would be major players this offseason. Barring some sequence of huge trades, we'll be signing a few guys off the scrap heap and maybe signing PK.

 

The money just isn't there this offseason.

 

Now that doesn't mean KW doesn't pull off a deal for a player such as Kemp, but it would have to be a high-risk/high-reward type deal for someone like Kemp or BJ Upton or someone who is not quite meeting his capabilities and management is impatient with him.

It all depends on what the Sox are willing to do. The Sox's payroll came in at $120 million in 2008, with some money coming in to help offset Thome...even if you count that though, we've already seen a substantial total payroll cut for 2009 and 2010 from where we were in 08. On top of that, presumbably at some level we're now entering more of an economic recovery phase, so at least the possibility of huge ad-deal losses has decreased. This team is back into a position where if it wins games, it can count on substantial revenue growth again, and while we're not down $70 million in commitments like the Tigers, there has the potential to be some maneuvering room.

[balfanman]

First point:

 

1. How on Earth can we judge what Viciedo's 1b defense would be like? He's barely played there, he bounced back and forth between 1b and 3b this season to get at bats, despite his size he's probably going to wind up having better reactions/instincts/speed/range than PK14 because he is somewhat athletic.

 

2. How on Earth can you say "our 1b defense will be atrocious" and "I want Fielder" in the same post? Either you care about 1b defense or you don't.

 

I'm one who cares big time about 1st base defense. Ramirez would not of had a stand out defensive season in my opinion if it wsn't for Paul Konerko. If Ramirez would have been charged with a few more errors because our 1st basemen couldn't handle his throws, then his confidence probably goes out the window and we would of seen a much worse version of him. Not to mention the effect that all of those extra outs would of put on an already mediocre (results wise) pitching staff.

 

I believe that we won a game this year because a 1st baseman, namely Washingtons' Adam Dunn was a complete hack at 1st base. If we somehow acquire Dunn and he plays even 1 inning in the field I personally would not be happy. We wouldn't even play Thome at 1st and he was at least adequate.

 

I, for one, think that 1st base defense is highly under valued. JMHO

[Balta1701]

We wouldn't even play Thome at 1st and he was at least adequate.

Not playing Thome there had nothing to do with defense or stubbornness. It was entirely about the condition of his back.

[balfanman]

Not playing Thome there had nothing to do with defense or stubbornness. It was entirely about the condition of his back.

 

I realize that, I'm just sayin'.

[Jerksticks]

I'm one who cares big time about 1st base defense. Ramirez would not of had a stand out defensive season in my opinion if it wsn't for Paul Konerko. If Ramirez would have been charged with a few more errors because our 1st basemen couldn't handle his throws, then his confidence probably goes out the window and we would of seen a much worse version of him. Not to mention the effect that all of those extra outs would of put on an already mediocre (results wise) pitching staff.

 

I believe that we won a game this year because a 1st baseman, namely Washingtons' Adam Dunn was a complete hack at 1st base. If we somehow acquire Dunn and he plays even 1 inning in the field I personally would not be happy. We wouldn't even play Thome at 1st and he was at least adequate.

 

I, for one, think that 1st base defense is highly under valued. JMHO

 

I don't think anybody here would be happy with Dunn at 1B for 3 years. That defense is SOOOOOO bad it almost makes you forget about his offense and the 40 garbage-time homers.

[Balta1701]

I don't think anybody here would be happy with Dunn at 1B for 3 years. That defense is SOOOOOO bad it almost makes you forget about his offense and the 40 garbage-time homers.

Adam Dunn's career numbers close and late: 47 HR, .858 OPS. High leverage: 77 HR, 925 OPS. Career OPS in Extra innings: 1.291.

 

You can make a case that he isn't that great in the 8th and 9th innings overall, but the close and late stats and the leverage-stats suggest he'll do damage when it counts. The one thing taht will hurt him is that he has an .817 career OPS against LHP, which is good but nothing like the damage he does against righties.

 

The "40 garbage time home runs" line makes you look worse than Adam Dunn's defense.

[chw42]

Adam Dunn's career numbers close and late: 47 HR, .858 OPS. High leverage: 77 HR, 925 OPS. Career OPS in Extra innings: 1.291.

 

You can make a case that he isn't that great in the 8th and 9th innings overall, but the close and late stats and the leverage-stats suggest he'll do damage when it counts. The one thing taht will hurt him is that he has an .817 career OPS against LHP, which is good but nothing like the damage he does against righties.

 

The "40 garbage time home runs" line makes you look worse than Adam Dunn's defense.

 

That says a lot.

Edited October 28, 2010 by chw42

[Jerksticks]

Adam Dunn's career numbers close and late: 47 HR, .858 OPS. High leverage: 77 HR, 925 OPS. Career OPS in Extra innings: 1.291.

 

You can make a case that he isn't that great in the 8th and 9th innings overall, but the close and late stats and the leverage-stats suggest he'll do damage when it counts. The one thing taht will hurt him is that he has an .817 career OPS against LHP, which is good but nothing like the damage he does against righties.

 

The "40 garbage time home runs" line makes you look worse than Adam Dunn's defense.

 

 

Not really. He hit .217/.335/.427/.762 with RISP this year, and a paltry .169/.344/.366/.710 with RISP and 2 out- add to that a total of almost 100 strikeouts in those 2 situations. Those are the stats that count to me. He's not a horrible offensive player, he just isn't great. His defense IS horrible. I'd take PK any day of the week over that dude.