America Votes 2010

[StrangeSox]

One good thing to see was the failure of a lot of the Tea Party candidates.

[Chisoxfn]

WTF? They don't like when their representatives do nothing?

 

This has been one of the most productive Congresses in terms of passing legislation in decades. You have to go back to Johnson's first term to see a Congress that did this many major bills.

 

You can look at it 2 ways. You can either tell me that the Dems totally overreached, or you can tell me that the Dems didn't go nearly far enough, but if people don't like representatives that do nothing, then they'd have loved this Congress.

Ya, they've passed legislation that had major holes and it is pretty evident that America wasn't happy with what had been passed for the most part.

[Soxbadger]

Its not about the coasts, its about urban versus rural.

 

And I think that there is definitely truth in the idea that the Democrats have become an urban party. There are exceptions, but if you look at the last few elections the major urban centers, NY, Chicago, LA, etc have been dominated by Democrats. From the founding of the United States you had tension between agrarian and industrial ideals, these tensions will continue to manifest themselves in a large country that is a republic or democracy.

 

I believe that we are beginning to see a real fundamental problem in the United States, and that it started post Cold War. In the absence of a unifying enemy or common goal, we lose site of our similarities and begin to focus on the differences. I have begun to lose hope that a govt that is best for me, will be the best for some one else or vice-versa. And if that is the case, that we as a country can not reconcile our differences, then we have to begin to look to alternative solutions.

 

At this point the only thing that a majority of Americans can seemingly agree upon is that the system isnt working.

[StrangeSox]

Ya, they've passed legislation that had major holes and it is pretty evident that America wasn't happy with what had been passed for the most part.

 

America was pretty ignorant in general about what was passed thanks to bulls*** like "DEATH PANELS!"

[Chisoxfn]

To me, how the Republicans won the house is simple:

Do everything you can in your power to completely obstruct the political desires of the opposition (democrats), scream bloody murder that the system is broken (even though you were the ones breaking it), say that if you are elected/re-elected you will fight for real Americans (while being the back pockets of big business), and continue to do everything in your power to completely obstruct the political desires of the opposition to the point where absolutely NO legislation to fix the economy is passed, there by sinking the President, and getting your man (or woman) in there in 2012.

 

See, it's that simple.

No, it is as simple as the democrats pushed everything they could through for the past 2 years and never reached out for any sort of olive branch. Obama never had any conversations with the minority republican leaders.

 

It was pretty much an FU given by the democrats to the republicans. They didn't want to work with the repubs and had the power to do so because America had voted them in. Well, that has changed significantly now.

[BigSqwert]

No, it is as simple as the democrats pushed everything they could through for the past 2 years and never reached out for any sort of olive branch. Obama never had any conversations with the minority republican leaders.

 

It was pretty much an FU given by the democrats to the republicans. They didn't want to work with the repubs and had the power to do so because America had voted them in. Well, that has changed significantly now.

Oh my. You need to stop tuning into Rush on the way to work.

[NorthSideSox72]

Ya, they've passed legislation that had major holes and it is pretty evident that America wasn't happy with what had been passed for the most part.

That's more accurate.

 

And part of that has some truth. The health care reform bill is a huge cost with some major problems, though it will also save money in some areas. The stimulus bill most certainly helped keep more people working and improved infrastructure, but it also failed to do much in the way of sustainable job growth because it was far too short-term in its approach.

 

TARP though, was a huge success.

 

But here is where we hit part of the issue, and that is that the American people have a wholesale lack of understanding of economics and the concept of time. Most people you talk to point to TARP and say what a huge waste it was. If they actually worked with the facts, they'd see the government did not spend $700B, in fact, they MADE MONEY on it, AND helped stave off true financial disaster.

 

That is the "marketing" problem Obama has referred to, but really, he shouldn't have said that, because it makes things worse. He should be out there talking succinctly and directly about these things, instead of providing platitudes and a general air of superiority, both of which are killing him.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

No, it is as simple as the democrats pushed everything they could through for the past 2 years and never reached out for any sort of olive branch. Obama never had any conversations with the minority republican leaders.

 

It was pretty much an FU given by the democrats to the republicans. They didn't want to work with the repubs and had the power to do so because America had voted them in. Well, that has changed significantly now.

That is complete B.S. Obama tried that route multiple times and was rebuffed. The lack of cooperation is absolutely a two-way street, and the GOP has just as much blame for it as the Dems or Obama do.

 

[Chisoxfn]

Oh my. You need to stop tuning into Rush on the way to work.

As far as I'm concerned its the truth. Generalized a bit, certainly, but what I said above is the absolute truth. I'm not saying the republicans would have acted any different in there shoes, but the republicans taking the house is good for America. America works and functions best when there are multiple parties in control and power.

 

While I fully buy into the republican way of thought and republican economic policies I would not state that they acted perfectly over the 2nd 4 year reign that ended in 08. At the same time, I think Obama is one of the worse presidents in our countries history.

 

Just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions

[StrangeSox]

No, it is as simple as the democrats pushed everything they could through for the past 2 years and never reached out for any sort of olive branch. Obama never had any conversations with the minority republican leaders.

 

It was pretty much an FU given by the democrats to the republicans. They didn't want to work with the repubs and had the power to do so because America had voted them in. Well, that has changed significantly now.

 

Eh, no. The democrats did plenty to compromise. They did plenty to not push through any sort of actual progressive agenda. They didn't push things through--healthcare took 18 months, the stimulus bill was almost half tax cuts. The Republicans simply made it their mission to not let Obama and the Democrats accomplish any of their legislative objectives. They were given concessions and given opportunities and still refused to vote for anything. The held up record numbers of appointments. Filed record numbers of obstructionist motions.

 

If anything, the Democrats were took weak and too unwilling to push a progressive agenda. It'll be interesting to see if Obama and the Senate do take a "f*** you" tactic at this point, but they clearly haven't so far.

[Chisoxfn]

That is complete B.S. Obama tried that route multiple times and was rebuffed. The lack of cooperation is absolutely a two-way street, and the GOP has just as much blame for it as the Dems or Obama do.

Show me where it happened. Show me where any sort of serious discussions happened. The dem's threw a middle finger to the repubs after 2008. They had all the mandate they needed from the voters and could push through whatever they wanted. All the repubs could do is try to block the progress and sit around and do whatever they could to slow the stuff that they didn't believe in from going through.

 

And well, they had little ability to impact or stop it and the bills pushed through are all the evidence I need to support my opinion.

[StrangeSox]

As far as I'm concerned its the truth. Generalized a bit, certainly, but what I said above is the absolute truth.

 

It is clearly, objectively not true.

 

I'm not saying the republicans would have acted any different in there shoes, but the republicans taking the house is good for America. America works and functions best when there are multiple parties in control and power.

 

This is not necessarily true, and especially when politics are as caustic and hyperbolic as they are now. Compromise is impossible when you paint the President as an evil Communist Marxist Socialist Nazi Muslim Kenyan and leading the evil Democrats bent on destroying America.

 

Just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions

 

Yeah, some are based on facts, some aren't...

[Chisoxfn]

I should note, I'm not saying the republicans wouldn't have done it any different between 2008 and 2010 with that mandate. But what happened happened and a lot of flawed legislation was passed which a decent part of Americans don't agree with in full or have issues with.

 

Why else do we have a 3rd party showing up and to an extent this tea party movement is more a party. Hell, there are varying degrees to what tea partiers stand for. Some consider them an extension of republicans but they also want to make it clear that they have their own thoughts and beliefs and to be frank, some could argue that some of there core beliefs go back to some of the things our country was founded upon (which was small government).

 

The revolution happened for many reasons but by and large my personal belief is in a small government that ensures certain necessities but by and large stays out of your way.

 

Again, all of the above is my complete and utter opinion and nothing more.

[knightni]

Looks like the merry-go-round gets pushed back to the right.

 

All of this "change" is making me dizzy.

[StrangeSox]

Show me where it happened. Show me where any sort of serious discussions happened. The dem's threw a middle finger to the repubs after 2008. They had all the mandate they needed from the voters and could push through whatever they wanted. All the repubs could do is try to block the progress and sit around and do whatever they could to slow the stuff that they didn't believe in from going through.

 

And well, they had little ability to impact or stop it and the bills pushed through are all the evidence I need to support my opinion.

 

Cap and Trade. Public Option/UHC. Jobs Bills. A Stimulus focused on jobs and spending and not tax cuts. Dozens of administrative appointments.

 

Yes, the Dems did manage to get some major legislation passed over historic opposition from a minority party completely unwilling to compromise on anything. That doesn't mean they were completely unwilling to work with Republicans.

 

Republicans seem to have this strange idea that, when in power, they get to pass anything they want. And, when they're not in power, the Dems should still pass what the Reps want. Compromising with a party with a super majority means you're not going to get a lot of your policies enacted. So they decided to actively oppose everything and anything they did and to demonize Obama, the Democrats and government in general.

[Soxy]

The revolution happened for many reasons but by and large my personal belief is in a small government that ensures certain necessities but by and large stays out of your way.

Revolution? I don't think so. Anymore than 2008 was a revolution. Cycle, maybe. Pendulum, maybe. Revolution, hardly.

[knightni]

Revolution? I don't think so. Anymore than 2008 was a revolution. Cycle, maybe. Pendulum, maybe. Revolution, hardly.

Merry-Go-Round

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Show me where it happened. Show me where any sort of serious discussions happened. The dem's threw a middle finger to the repubs after 2008. They had all the mandate they needed from the voters and could push through whatever they wanted. All the repubs could do is try to block the progress and sit around and do whatever they could to slow the stuff that they didn't believe in from going through.

 

And well, they had little ability to impact or stop it and the bills pushed through are all the evidence I need to support my opinion.

 

First, look at the bills that DID pass. The Stimulus bill was half tax breaks, which was not the Dems' intention, that was a concession to the GOP. The Health Care bill had all sorts of modifications to it to make it palatable. Clearly, concessions were made for votes.

 

Second, its been well-reported that Obama and his cohorts have reached out to GOP leaders in Congress, and were basically told that there was no interest in compromise.

 

 

I should note, I'm not saying the republicans wouldn't have done it any different between 2008 and 2010 with that mandate. But what happened happened and a lot of flawed legislation was passed which a decent part of Americans don't agree with in full or have issues with.

 

Why else do we have a 3rd party showing up and to an extent this tea party movement is more a party. Hell, there are varying degrees to what tea partiers stand for. Some consider them an extension of republicans but they also want to make it clear that they have their own thoughts and beliefs and to be frank, some could argue that some of there core beliefs go back to some of the things our country was founded upon (which was small government).

 

The revolution happened for many reasons but by and large my personal belief is in a small government that ensures certain necessities but by and large stays out of your way.

 

Again, all of the above is my complete and utter opinion and nothing more.

Revolution? Hardly. They took the house, and couldn't take the Senate despite how bad everything is.

 

And did you seriously say Obama is one of the worst Presidents in history? He's not even the worst President in the past decade.

 

[Soxy]

Merry-Go-Round

 

Merry-go-rounds are fun. This is more like the mood swings of a toddler.

[Soxbadger]

While I fully buy into the republican way of thought and republican economic policies

 

I know that you are a lot better with numbers than me, but I have a serious problem with Republican "economic policies".

 

I understand no one wants to pay taxes, but how are we going to get out of a deficit without both cutting spending and increasing income? I just have yet to hear a plan that we can some how magically make more money while taxing less. Its also easy to say that you are going to cut spending, but no one can ever seem to agree on what to cut. Some people would slash the defense budget, other people might want to cut welfare, and so on and so forth.

 

I just have some reservations because there is little historical or economic evidence to suggest that higher taxes hurt the economy or that lower taxes help the economy. The second problem with Republican economic policies, is that they start to blend social policies with economic policies, case and point would be illegal immigration.

 

If you truly believe in capitalism, and by that I mean the least govt interference, then you should be adamantly against any govt interference with the work supply. You should allow business's to hire anyone at any price because that would let the market control. By artificially reducing supply of the work force and at the same time artificially increasing the price of the supply, you have created a system where labor is to expensive and therefore you see manufacturing and other jobs going to other countries.

 

But at the same time this is the inevitable progression of a world economy. The US grew because we were cheap labor compared with England or France, we had less govt rules on labor and we allowed labor to work at extremely cheap prices and long hours, with very little control over business. The problem was that there were social costs to not having the govt set some guidelines.

 

Perhaps we have gone to far. Perhaps in all of the workforce protection we have priced ourselves out of the market. But I dont believe our economy is faltering because of taxes or govt spending, there just is very little correlation. Our economy is faltering because we arent the only industrial nation who can produce goods anymore. And when there is competition, you have to compete back. The problem is that the a country like China is willing to compete in a way the US wont.

 

Im not sure there is a solution, but at the end of the day I really dont think either party is going to drastically change the course of the American economy. There is a fundamental issue that can not be solved by taxes or spending. We eventually are going to have to look in the mirror and ask ourselves "Do we want to work hard", because as long as other countries will work harder, longer and cheaper, not much of a chance we can compete on prices. So perhaps it is time for the US to reinvent itself, because otherwise we will just keep pricing ourselves out.

[NorthSideSox72]

Revolution? I don't think so. Anymore than 2008 was a revolution. Cycle, maybe. Pendulum, maybe. Revolution, hardly.

Thank you.

 

This goes for the economy too, BTW. The eeyore crowd is driving me nuts. People seem so attached to the idea that we're headed for disaster that they are willing to ignore both the data and the history saying otherwise.

 

[Chisoxfn]

Revolution? I don't think so. Anymore than 2008 was a revolution. Cycle, maybe. Pendulum, maybe. Revolution, hardly.

Biggest swing since social security was passed. I'd say the biggest swing in 60+ years is a pretty powerful mandate of sorts.

[knightni]

Merry-go-rounds are fun. This is more like the mood swings of a toddler.

Not if the motor in it is dead and you have to manually push it.

[StrangeSox]

First, look at the bills that DID pass. The Stimulus bill was half tax breaks, which was not the Dems' intention, that was a concession to the GOP. The Health Care bill had all sorts of modifications to it to make it palatable. Clearly, concessions were made for votes.

 

Second, its been well-reported that Obama and his cohorts have reached out to GOP leaders in Congress, and were basically told that there was no interest in compromise.

 

To be fair, some of those concessions were made to get Blue Dog Democrats, aka conservative Democrats who vote Republican on just about every major issue, to go along. But still, the way Jason is painting history is clearly not accurate.

 

[knightni]

Biggest swing since social security was passed. I'd say the biggest swing in 60+ years is a pretty powerful mandate of sorts.

...and it will swing back the other way by about 2014.