Offseason gameplan

[typewritermender]

I think there's a few things we need to turn this team around. One is a bit of a shakeup. That means good, new players. The other is young talent that we can develop & keep around for a long time.

 

So, my new idea for an offseason gameplan: let Paulie walk. Let AJ walk. Go hard after Crawford, or Werth as a backup plan, and do whatever it takes to sign one of them. Trade Floyd (& maybe some throwins?) to Arizona for Montero and Brandon Allen. Use CQ as DH, Teahan as supersub/3B platoon with Morel. Resign Freddy and let him and Sale battle it out in ST for the 5th starter spot. Tank at 1B with Allen & Teahen as backups. I think this makes our lineup younger, more versitile, better defensively, and hopefully better offensively.

 

Any thoughts on a cohesive offseason gameplan?

[greg775]

I think there's a few things we need to turn this team around. One is a bit of a shakeup. That means good, new players. The other is young talent that we can develop & keep around for a long time.

 

So, my new idea for an offseason gameplan: let Paulie walk. Let AJ walk. Go hard after Crawford, or Werth as a backup plan, and do whatever it takes to sign one of them. Trade Floyd (& maybe some throwins?) to Arizona for Montero and Brandon Allen. Use CQ as DH, Teahan as supersub/3B platoon with Morel. Resign Freddy and let him and Sale battle it out in ST for the 5th starter spot. Tank at 1B with Allen & Teahen as backups. I think this makes our lineup younger, more versitile, better defensively, and hopefully better offensively.

 

Any thoughts on a cohesive offseason gameplan?

 

I agree the team needs to be remade a bit. I would trade one starter (either Mark Buehrle or Jackson) and let AJ walk. Using a Rongey term, we can survive with one position being a weak hitter (let Castro start with Flowers the backup). However we will need some lefthanded pop somewhere. I have no idea what the plan should be, but I'd deal one starting hurler with the hopes of bolstering our lineup somewhere.

I do believe Paulie is gone so that's gonna have to be addressed as well. I guess move Tank to first and hope for the best there. It might not be so bad if somebody teaches him to scoop.

Edited November 2, 2010 by greg775

[Eminor3rd]

That's a rebuild, not a contender. Just sayin'

[Jerksticks]

Not saying you said this, but I think it needs to be said: Trading one of our starters for a huge bat does not hurt this ball club or put us into rebuild mode.

 

I feel like I've bought in to the company line that our SP is our strength and we should not compromise it at any cost. While it is nice to have a team with 5 dominant starters, the fact remains that teams win the world series each an every year without 5 greats.

 

Balance is the key to most things in life...

 

What's wrong with trading a SP and just signing Garcia again?

 

I hate that I can't remember any laugher-games from last year. I can remember countless 7IP 1 ER performances that ended in no decisions though. We've had a bad offense for 5 years now.

[chw42]

The Sox aren't going to sign anybody too noteworthy.

 

But I think going after somebody like an Austin Kearns as a RF might be a safe move. A move that might be one step up from that is trading for Ryan Ludwick.

 

TBH, I think one of the most important positions that needs to be addressed is right field. We can't have Quentin hobbling around out there. It devalues him a lot, both as a hitter and a fielder. Stick Quentin at DH or have him platoon there with somebody else (he can't hit right handed pitchers).

 

I think a lot of us feel that Paul Konerko is number one priority and I will have to strongly agree. Retaining Konerko is huge. However, if we don't get him back, we can always try somebody like Carlos Pena, who after a pretty bad year, could come at a similar price to Konerko. Aubrey Huff is also an option. The left handed options at 1B are aplenty.

 

Out of all our free agents, A.J. is the least of my worries. I think Tyler Flowers can produce what he did last season. The defense might not be the same and Flowers will have to adjust to calling games, but offensively, the two can't differ by much and Flowers actually does have upside.

 

Jenks needs to be non-tendered, paying him nearly $10 million when this team is short on money would be absolutely crazy. Instead, give some of the money to Putz (his struggles late in the year might help us get him back at a decent price). Have either Putz or Thornton start off as the closer. Eventually, that might be a role for Chris Sale to settle into. Either way, you have three solid guys at the back end of the bullpen in Sale, Thornton, and Putz.

 

The Sox don't need that many new additions, they just need to spend whatever cash they have wisely. A majority of that cash should be spent on Konerko and Putz. Whatever's left should be focused on getting a full-time right fielder to move Quentin to the DH role. And if they can, maybe go after a 3B option that can backup Morel in case he fails (Felipe Lopez, maybe? Just throwing a name out there off the top of my head).

Edited November 3, 2010 by chw42

[Chicago White Sox]

The Sox aren't going to sign anybody too noteworthy.

 

But I think going after somebody like an Austin Kearns as a RF might be a safe move. A move that might be one step up from that is trading for Ryan Ludwick.

 

TBH, I think one of the most important positions that needs to be addressed is right field. We can't have Quentin hobbling around out there. It devalues him a lot, both as a hitter and a fielder. Stick Quentin at DH or have him platoon there with somebody else (he can't hit right handed pitchers).

 

I think a lot of us feel that Paul Konerko is number one priority and I will have to strongly agree. Retaining Konerko is huge. However, if we don't get him back, we can always try somebody like Carlos Pena, who after a pretty bad year, could come at a similar price to Konerko. Aubrey Huff is also an option. The left handed options at 1B are aplenty.

 

Out of all our free agents, A.J. is the least of my worries. I think Tyler Flowers can produce what he did last season. The defense might not be the same and Flowers will have to adjust to calling games, but offensively, the two can't differ by much and Flowers actually does have upside.

 

Jenks needs to be non-tendered, paying him nearly $10 million when this team is short on money would be absolutely crazy. Instead, give some of the money to Putz (his struggles late in the year might help us get him back at a decent price). Have either Putz or Thornton start off as the closer. Eventually, that might be a role for Chris Sale to settle into. Either way, you have three solid guys at the back end of the bullpen in Sale, Thornton, and Putz.

 

The Sox don't need that many new additions, they just need to spend whatever cash they have wisely. A majority of that cash should be spent on Konerko and Putz. Whatever's left should be focused on getting a full-time right fielder to move Quentin to the DH role. And if they can, maybe go after a 3B option that can backup Morel in case he fails (Felipe Lopez, maybe? Just throwing a name out there off the top of my head).

I disagree on the A.J. part. His bat may be expendable, but losing his game-calling ability would be significant. With the amount of money we're paying our rotation, I want our everyday catcher to be a good game-caller. I definitely do not want to thrust Flowers into a starting role without him having some time to work with our staff beforehand.

[pktmotion]

trade for Jacoby Ellsbury(Quentin+Flowers or Floyd/Jackson+filler)

 

Sign Adam LaRoche

 

re-Sign Konerko, Putz, Danks, Alexei

 

 

 

Tender contracts to: (assuming they get non tendered)

 

Russell Martin(replaces Flowers; sacrificing power/hitting for defense)

 

Wil Ledezma( LHRP; in my opinion would benefit from a good defense behind him)

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Ellsbury CF

Beckham 2B

Rios RF

Konerko 1B

LaRoche DH

Viciedo 3B

Martin C

Ramirez SS

Pierre LF

 

 

Bench: De Aza/4th OF, Teahen, Castro, Vizquel

 

 

Danks

Peavy

Buehrle

Jackson

Floyd

 

 

Marquez

Linebrink

Ledezma

Santos

Sale

Putz

Thornton

Edited November 3, 2010 by pktmotion

[Eminor3rd]

Not saying you said this, but I think it needs to be said: Trading one of our starters for a huge bat does not hurt this ball club or put us into rebuild mode.

 

I feel like I've bought in to the company line that our SP is our strength and we should not compromise it at any cost. While it is nice to have a team with 5 dominant starters, the fact remains that teams win the world series each an every year without 5 greats.

 

Balance is the key to most things in life...

 

What's wrong with trading a SP and just signing Garcia again?

 

I hate that I can't remember any laugher-games from last year. I can remember countless 7IP 1 ER performances that ended in no decisions though. We've had a bad offense for 5 years now.

 

I agree with you completely. I would love to trade a SP for a major bat. But the OP suggested trading a SP for Brandon Allen and Miguel Montero, and running Viciedo and Morel out as starters, and letting Sale fill the SP hole.

 

C Montero/Flowers/Castro

1B Viciedo/Allen

2B Beckham

SS Ramirez

3B Morel/Teahen

LF Crawford/Pierre

CF Rios

RF Quentin/Teahen

 

That's not a contender, unfortunately.

 

But I agree with your main point.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Eminor3rd

[Eminor3rd]

trade for Jacoby Ellsbury(Quentin+Flowers or Floyd/Jackson+filler)

 

Sign Adam LaRoche

 

re-Sign Konerko, Putz, Danks, Alexei

 

 

 

Tender contracts to: (assuming they get non tendered)

 

Russell Martin(replaces Flowers; sacrificing power/hitting for defense)

 

Wil Ledezma( LHRP; in my opinion would benefit from a good defense behind him)

 

That's a significant payroll increase.

[pktmotion]

That's a significant payroll increase.

 

I know I'm still keeping my fingers crossed on Konerko returning although it probably won't happen

[dmbjeff]

i assume paulie walks too. he is going to want big money to come back and considering what you can get for about half the price, huff or laroche, they will give you similar production and of course gives us the much needed LH bat plus financial flexibility to fulfill other needs. the other 6 million will have to go to a closer/bullpen help or RF help if Q moves to DH like he should.

[Jerksticks]

I don't think KW will throw left over money at RF. I'm seeing a significant move there. Or another CF to slide Rios over. I'm totally cool with Rios playing CF for the length of his contract though; I'd actually prefer that because that would mean a stronger bat is in right.

[Fantl916]

Just for fun...

 

Move #1: Buerhle + Morel for Rasmus and Penny - Buerhle's contract is nulled by the fact that we take one of their worst contracts in Penny, and with Buerhle St Louis would still have 6 starters without penny (wainwright, carpenter, garcia, suppan, and lohse). Morel would have some value for the Cards as another potential young piece at 3b, letting him battle it out with Freese. This would give us a nice LH OF whom is young and talented. hefty price to pay but one that should be worth it.

 

Move #2: Sign Danks long term - Give him 12$ mil a year over 5-6 years and call it good. i know he's taking it slow but locking him up ensure this staff has a rock solid piece at its front end for years to come.

 

Move(s) #3: Re-sign Konerko, re-sign Garcia, offer AJ arbitration and see what happens - Almost a given, but letting Konerko go anywhere would almost immediately make us 10 wins worse. Between Penny and Garcia we should get good production out of the 5th rotation spot, as well as a good long man in Freddy. If AJ accepts arb then fine, if he doesnt we get draft picks and move on with Flowers/Castro. Chances are he'd accept unless hes convinced a multi=year deal awaits him, which i think he can find from someone like the Rangers, Rockies, Mets, etc.

 

Move #4: Jenks + Lillibridge+Santeliz for Figgins - I think a lot of people would think this isnt possible because Jenks sucks and is expensive, but Seattle might consider itself in need of a different direction and Figgins is on the books for 3 more seasons at a bit of an overpay considering his production last year. If you think like a basketball fan, this is an "expiring contract" + some spare parts for a decent player with a somewhat bad long term deal. Figgins can play 3b extremely well and serve as either a #2 hitter, alternative leadoff guy to pierre, or a second leadoff hitter in the #9 hole, while fitting Ozzie's personality of speed and defense to a T.

 

Move #5: Make Sale the closer: this is gross... i already know, but it worked for Texas with Feliz, and it can work for us. It stymies his growth for sure, but he can be dominant as a closer, and let's everyone else slide into place as far as bullpen roles. If we sign a couple MRs to fill the 6th innings or so we'll be fine.

 

Overall payroll increases slightly (subtract Buerhle, Jenks, and fillers while adding increases for Paulie and AJ, plus the adds of Penny/Rasmus/Figgins) and talent improves overall IMO.

 

LF Pierre

3b Figgins

RF Rios

1b Konerko

DH Quentin

CF Rasmus

2b Beckham

C AJP

SS Alexei

Bench: Visquel, Castro, Viciedo, De Aza, Teahan

 

Staff: Danks, Peavy, Floyd, Edwin, Penny

Long: Garcia

Closer: Sale

Setups: Thornton, Santos

MRs: Nunez, Pena, + fillers

[witesoxfan]

Just for fun...

 

Move #1: Buerhle + Morel for Rasmus and Penny - Buerhle's contract is nulled by the fact that we take one of their worst contracts in Penny, and with Buerhle St Louis would still have 6 starters without penny (wainwright, carpenter, garcia, suppan, and lohse). Morel would have some value for the Cards as another potential young piece at 3b, letting him battle it out with Freese. This would give us a nice LH OF whom is young and talented. hefty price to pay but one that should be worth it.

 

Buehrle has virtually no trade value, not with the season he is coming off and due $14 mill next year. He's more attractive than Barry Zito...that's about as far as I'll go. On top of that, Brad Penny is a free agent. If the Sox were to acquire a mediocre starter from the Cardinals, it would be Kyle Lohse. Lohse is worse than Buehrle and has another year on top of his current contract. The Cardinals can also go with David Freese at 3B, or any other number of cheap alternatives, and really have no reason to deal Rasmus considering he has stated that he has mended fences with LaRussa.

 

Move #2: Sign Danks long term - Give him 12$ mil a year over 5-6 years and call it good. i know he's taking it slow but locking him up ensure this staff has a rock solid piece at its front end for years to come.

 

If Buehrle can get $14 mill a year, Danks can get atleast that too, and probably more. Danks signing a 6 year, $90 million deal really isn't unfathomable, especially considering that his worst injuries have been blisters.

 

Move(s) #3: Re-sign Konerko, re-sign Garcia, offer AJ arbitration and see what happens - Almost a given, but letting Konerko go anywhere would almost immediately make us 10 wins worse. Between Penny and Garcia we should get good production out of the 5th rotation spot, as well as a good long man in Freddy. If AJ accepts arb then fine, if he doesnt we get draft picks and move on with Flowers/Castro. Chances are he'd accept unless hes convinced a multi=year deal awaits him, which i think he can find from someone like the Rangers, Rockies, Mets, etc.

 

Konerko is probably going to cost $12 mill a year again, over 2-3 years. Garcia pitched himself to atleast one more solid payday, probably around $5-7 mill. Offering Pierzynski arbitration guarantees him around $7 million, and with the Type A status attached to his name, that makes him far less attractive on the free agent market and even likelier to resign with the White Sox, especially considering that Pierzynski doesn't have any (known) bad blood with the White Sox organization like Orlando Cabrera did.

 

Move #4: Jenks + Lillibridge+Santeliz for Figgins - I think a lot of people would think this isnt possible because Jenks sucks and is expensive, but Seattle might consider itself in need of a different direction and Figgins is on the books for 3 more seasons at a bit of an overpay considering his production last year. If you think like a basketball fan, this is an "expiring contract" + some spare parts for a decent player with a somewhat bad long term deal. Figgins can play 3b extremely well and serve as either a #2 hitter, alternative leadoff guy to pierre, or a second leadoff hitter in the #9 hole, while fitting Ozzie's personality of speed and defense to a T.

 

Even though the Mariners may want to get out of the Figgins contract, they aren't going to take junk for him. Jenks is going to end up getting around $8 mill next year if he were to be offered arbitration (he won't be), so Seattle wouldn't see any short-term savings. Lillibridge, as fun as he is, is a terrible player who has no trade value. Santeliz is a fringe prospect. Seattle would keep him, even if they hated him, as opposed to getting an $8 million setup man, a utility player, and a minor league arm.

 

Move #5: Make Sale the closer: this is gross... i already know, but it worked for Texas with Feliz, and it can work for us. It stymies his growth for sure, but he can be dominant as a closer, and let's everyone else slide into place as far as bullpen roles. If we sign a couple MRs to fill the 6th innings or so we'll be fine.

 

That is very gross. Texas did it because they have about 50 million arms in the minor league system, wanted to get him pitching at the MLB level, and could afford to do it, especially when they had a solid rotation. Sale needs to be in the minors next year stretching out his arm, because he is going to be a starting pitcher in 2012 and could make some starts in 2011.

 

Overall payroll increases slightly (subtract Buerhle, Jenks, and fillers while adding increases for Paulie and AJ, plus the adds of Penny/Rasmus/Figgins) and talent improves overall IMO.

 

The Sox have about $88 million tied up with about 14 players next year, and that doesn't include the $20 or so that would be due to Jenks and Konerko, nor the $7 mill due to Pierzynski. Resigning Vizquel bumps that up to about $90 mill between 15. Swapping Lohse for Buehrle is a loss of $3, leaving them at $87; swapping Jenks and junk for Figgins is a gain of $1, but is also unaccounted for initially; that puts the Sox at $97. Add in the $12 you have to Konerko, the $6 for Garcia (to be a freaking mopup reliever), and the $7 for Pierzynski, and you were looking at about a 25% increase in payroll up to $122 million guaranteed to about 17-18 players. Add in the additional raises to other players the Sox currently have, and that total is closer to $125 million, and perhaps closer to $130 depending on how much Danks would make in that extension. That's not exactly a slight increase, is it?

 

LF Pierre

3b Figgins

RF Rios

1b Konerko

DH Quentin

CF Rasmus

2b Beckham

C AJP

SS Alexei

Bench: Visquel, Castro, Viciedo, De Aza, Teahan

 

Staff: Danks, Peavy, Floyd, Edwin, Penny

Long: Garcia

Closer: Sale

Setups: Thornton, Santos

MRs: Nunez, Pena, + fillers

 

and I'm still not sure that team wins the division, especially with that bullpen.

[typewritermender]

I really think this team is too scared to give prospects a real shot at the bigs. We're getting better about it, as Beckham and Sale have shown that we're willing to let young guys work through their problems at the big league level without freaking out and sending them down or trading them. But on the whole, it seems like we are always extremely eager to trade or best prospects or let them rot in AAA instead of promoting them and seeing if they're worth a damn. What we've all seen of Dayan suggests that he has some real offensive stuff, and I personally could see him as a viable ROY candidate, with 30HR and 85RBI if we give him a full season to prove himself to us. Granted, his AVG and OBP may not be great, but that's something that will come with more exposure to big league pitching.

 

Apart from Ozzie's horrible managing, the biggest philosphical gap I have with this team is that we love the ailing veteran and are scared of our cheap, high potential prospects. What have we got to lose at this point?? The Giants just won the World Series fergodsake. We have a great pitching staff, lets run out the young guys that we actually have confidence in, fill the gaps in with GOOD (that's important) FA's, make a smart trade or two, and try to build a team that can IMPROVE over the next few years without having to constantly tinker, and add a big piece here, and add a big piece there, and spend too much money on old vets at the deadline, etc. I honestly don't think that's the way to win anymore. TB, SF, Philly, these are the teams we need to emulate.

 

As per my OP, I think with our staff, the following lineup could give us a decent shot at contending this year, as well as a lasting & continually improving team for the next 1/2 decade:

 

Crawford

Beckham

Rios

Quentin

Viciedo

Ramirez

Montero

Morel

Pierre

[greg775]

Not saying you said this, but I think it needs to be said: Trading one of our starters for a huge bat does not hurt this ball club or put us into rebuild mode.

 

I feel like I've bought in to the company line that our SP is our strength and we should not compromise it at any cost. While it is nice to have a team with 5 dominant starters, the fact remains that teams win the world series each an every year without 5 greats.

 

Balance is the key to most things in life...

 

What's wrong with trading a SP and just signing Garcia again?

 

I hate that I can't remember any laugher-games from last year. I can remember countless 7IP 1 ER performances that ended in no decisions though. We've had a bad offense for 5 years now.

 

Great post about buying into the company line about our starters being the group that should not be broken up at any cost.

Baumgarner??? WS hero?

We need some new bats and trading Jackson or Mark would be smart to get the right bat. I disagree Mark has no trade value. I just don't see that being the case. He'd have to be dealt to one of the teams with money though. Yankees, Boston, Mets don't want him?? Yankees continue to throw a lot of aging ragarms out there.

Edited November 3, 2010 by greg775

[Balta1701]

Great post about buying into the company line about our starters being the group that should not be broken up at any cost.

Baumgarner??? WS hero?

We need some new bats and trading Jackson or Mark would be smart. I disagree Mark has no trade value. I just don't see that being the case. He'd have to be dealt to one of the teams with money though. Yankees, Boston, Mets don't want him?? Yankees continue to throw a lot of aging ragarms out there.

The Mets have essentially declared they are not adding salary this offseason.

[witesoxfan]

Great post about buying into the company line about our starters being the group that should not be broken up at any cost.

Baumgarner??? WS hero?

We need some new bats and trading Jackson or Mark would be smart to get the right bat. I disagree Mark has no trade value. I just don't see that being the case. He'd have to be dealt to one of the teams with money though. Yankees, Boston, Mets don't want him?? Yankees continue to throw a lot of aging ragarms out there.

 

Well that limits his tradeability then, doesn't it?

 

For all intents and purposes, Mark Buehrle is a league average pitcher who is going to be due $14 million next year. If the White Sox want to trade him, they will either trade him for nothing, or they will take on someone else's bad contract.

[greg775]

Well that limits his tradeability then, doesn't it?

 

For all intents and purposes, Mark Buehrle is a league average pitcher who is going to be due $14 million next year. If the White Sox want to trade him, they will either trade him for nothing, or they will take on someone else's bad contract.

 

Well if we can't move him, then I'd deal Edwin. Mark is still a good pitcher to have on the Sox IMO, I'm just saying we need to trade a starter to improve our lineup.

If the Sox lose Paulie and AJ and add a couple average bats in return like Buck and LaRoche, we're not going to contend with the postseason chokers (I prefer that name to the Twins), we just won't.

Edited November 3, 2010 by greg775

[Balta1701]

Well if we can't move him, then I'd deal Edwin. Mark is still a good pitcher to have on the Sox IMO, I'm just saying we need to trade a starter to improve our lineup.

If the Sox lose Paulie and AJ and add a couple average bats in return like Buck and LaRoche, we're not going to contend with the postseason chokers (I prefer that name to the Twins), we just won't.

I just don't see the Sox adding anything better than an average bat by trading Jackson.

[Lemon_44]

Well that limits his tradeability then, doesn't it?

 

For all intents and purposes, Mark Buehrle is a league average pitcher who is going to be due $14 million next year. If the White Sox want to trade him, they will either trade him for nothing, or they will take on someone else's bad contract.

I could see Buehrle being sent to the Mets in a deal for Beltran. That's two overprcied contracts and the Mets would actually save money.I'm assuming Beltran is healthy again. I also could see Konerko being gone and being replaced with Dunn at 1b.

 

LF-Pierre

CF-Rios

RF-Beltran

3b-Morel

SS-Ramirez

2b-Beckham

1B-Dunn

C-Castro

DH-Quentin

 

bench:Teahen, Vizquel, Viciedo, DeAza, Flowers

 

SP:Danks, Floyd, Peavy, Jackson, Sale

BP: Thornton,Putz, Linebrink,Santos, Infante,long guy(Harrell?)

[Balta1701]

I could see Buehrle being sent to the Mets in a deal for Beltran. That's two overprcied contracts and the Mets would actually save money.I'm assuming Beltran is healthy again. I also could see Konerko being gone and being replaced with Dunn at 1b.

Why would Mark approve that type of deal?

[Jerksticks]

Why would Mark approve that type of deal?

 

No way he does. I only think there's 1 place he'd accept a trade to. He's our boy and he does amazing things sometimes. If I'm KW, there is always a rotation spot for MB; he's an above average #4-#5.

[Balta1701]

No way he does. I only think there's 1 place he'd accept a trade to. He's our boy and he does amazing things sometimes. If I'm KW, there is always a rotation spot for MB; he's an above average #4-#5.

Do you have any idea how bad the average numbers are for a #4 starter? Your typical #4 starter gives you something like 125 innings, 21 starts, and an ERA close to 5.

[Jerksticks]

Do you have any idea how bad the average numbers are for a #4 starter? Your typical #4 starter gives you something like 125 innings, 21 starts, and an ERA close to 5.

 

Exactly. A guaranteed 200 IP of 4.00 ERA (but usually better) out of the #4 is amazing. Plus he's a wonderful change of pace from whoever pitches before and after him.

 

If Buehrle were a pitch, he'd be a changeup.