OBAMA/TRUMPCARE MEGATHREAD

[NorthSideSox72]

You have to deal in absolutes or you'll run into major inconsistencies with what you want. Say whatever you want about me (yes Im an asshole in person too) but I know for a fact Im consistent. That matters, you call it intellectual simplicity but I think it takes a lot of fortitude to use the "screw em all" approach.

No, what it takes is a combination of intellectual laziness (not lack of intellect - important difference), and simple callousness. There is nothing related to fortitude or courage. It is the easy path. You may also call it the RIGHT path, but it doesn't any special courage any more than saying "free income and health care for all!" (which I also disagree with).

 

As for dealing in absolutes, trying to find more subtle solutions does not in any way cause inconsistencies in what you want. It causes imperfect solutions - but it doesn't change what I want at all. And I prefer an imperfect solution to simply sweeping everyone off the table.

 

[Y2HH]

I think it's a good thing if society can allow for people to pursue engaging and rewarding careers instead of having to take whatever grudging job they can just to subsist.

 

Universal health care and a basic income for everyone.

 

The problem with this is, it requires people such as myself that do NOT chase their dreams, to support those that do, who cannot afford to be doing so.

 

I think that's the point Duke is trying to make, and the point NorthSide made more clearly.

 

And I'm forced to agree.

[Reddy]

The problem with this is, it requires people such as myself that do NOT chase their dreams, to support those that do, who cannot afford to be doing so.

 

I think that's the point Duke is trying to make, and the point NorthSide made more clearly.

 

And I'm forced to agree.

 

But what's the alternative? Society requires people like me to exist as well (whether or not I succeed)

[Jenksismyhero]

Noted socialist Fredrick Hayek and communist Milton Friedman endorsed universal basic income. And a ps4 for every American.

 

I'd like to know what a "basic income" would entail. Because you know as soon as you set that line, that hand will be out flat again asking for more.

[Y2HH]

But what's the alternative? Society requires people like me to exist as well (whether or not I succeed)

 

I don't include you in that, as you aren't playing the chosen role of starving artist. YOU, specifically, are doing something about it via freelance instead of completely leaning on the system, as many do (I know a few starving artists...and they choose to get by on the backs of others instead of doing anything about it, such as freelancing).

[pettie4sox]

Duke I think you're being some what stubborn about this topic. Think of it like this, college and insurance are very similar volatile topics.

 

In college, you either had your parents pay, took out loans, or were subsidized via financial aid. The very few were given scholarships. Your tax money is spent to help poor people go to school so that they may have a chance some day. Some people, take advantage of it fully and will become productive members of society and the cycle will start again since they will be paying into the system.

 

Insurance, now, is working in a similar way. It's trying to give everyone a chance. Not everyone has the same deck of cards. Reddy is chasing his dream and if he succeeds, that subsidized insurance he got will be a drop in the bucket compared to how they'll tax his multi million dollar paycheck. Of course this is hypothetically speaking. Don't look at everything as black and white as they will only cloud your view. Sometimes you just need a little grey to see a greater perspective.

 

All in all, don't let the losers who milk the system ruin it for those who could benefit. I for one am happy my tax dollars goes to help people instead of the rotten corrupt politicians in Washington.

[DukeNukeEm]

But what's the alternative? Society requires people like me to exist as well (whether or not I succeed)

Im going to try my best here to not be insulting.

 

We really dont need you. At all, even if I were using the term "you" broadly to address the many others living near identical lives. We need lawyers (sadly), geologists, truck drivers and sad office drones. We dont need dreamchasing actors. America would keep chugging along in their absence.

 

Theres really no nobility to it either. But if I go further down that road Im afraid Ill have no choice but to insult so Ill stop here.

[Jenksismyhero]

Let's see. I pay for my cell phone. I don't own an xbox or a car or a house or kids, and probably wont until I can AFFORD to have those things.

 

Why do you equate an Xbox with a living wage?

 

What's a living wage? Please define it. I consider minimum wage a living wage. You can absolutely "live" on 15-20k a year. Easily.

 

So the next question is, what kind of minimal lifestyle should people have. That's where we all clearly disagree.

[Reddy]

I don't include you in that, as you aren't playing the chosen role of starving artist. YOU, specifically, are doing something about it via freelance instead of completely leaning on the system, as many do (I know a few starving artists...and they choose to get by on the backs of others instead of doing anything about it, such as freelancing).

The vast, vast majority of people I know in this city pursuing a career in the arts work incredibly hard, most of the time anywhere from 2 to 4 jobs. The thing Duke doesn't seem to realize, is that no one in this industry succeeds unless they work incredibly hard (discounting celebrities who become so because of family ties). The type of person who's driven and motivated enough to DO this work is not the type of person to be on food stamps or other government assistance programs. I work my ass off, and I deserve health care, and I appreciate that the government agrees with me. I pay taxes, I pay into social security though I'll never see a dime of it, so yes, I think as a human being and a citizen of the USA, asking for health care is not an outlandish request.

[Reddy]

Im going to try my best here to not be insulting.

 

We really dont need you. At all, even if I were using the term "you" broadly to address the many others living near identical lives. We need lawyers (sadly), geologists, truck drivers and sad office drones. We dont need dreamchasing actors. America would keep chugging along in their absence.

 

Theres really no nobility to it either. But if I go further down that road Im afraid Ill have no choice but to insult so Ill stop here.

 

This is where you are wrong. Point me to a culture or a civilization throughout all of history that was completely devoid of art

[DukeNukeEm]

No, what it takes is a combination of intellectual laziness (not lack of intellect - important difference), and simple callousness. There is nothing related to fortitude or courage. It is the easy path. You may also call it the RIGHT path, but it doesn't any special courage any more than saying "free income and health care for all!" (which I also disagree with).

 

As for dealing in absolutes, trying to find more subtle solutions does not in any way cause inconsistencies in what you want. It causes imperfect solutions - but it doesn't change what I want at all. And I prefer an imperfect solution to simply sweeping everyone off the table.

Youre actually correct, I confused courage with righteousness trying to galvanize myself. Im not going to argue with you there.

 

But I do believe for every exception you create more windows for abuse, and in a country this big that abuse can get costly in a hurry. So, do away with all of it.

[Balta1701]

You can absolutely "live" on 15-20k a year. Easily.

If someone else is picking up the health care costs and retirement costs. And you don't have any kids.

[Y2HH]

What's a living wage? Please define it. I consider minimum wage a living wage. You can absolutely "live" on 15-20k a year. Easily.

 

So the next question is, what kind of minimal lifestyle should people have. That's where we all clearly disagree.

 

Therein lies the rub.

 

A living wage and what people think is a minimal lifestyle are NOT the same thing, and are often melded together as if they are.

 

I could live on very very little. Would I want too? No. That's why I choose to NOT try to live on minimum wage jobs and do something about it. I could have done nothing. We all know people who had all the privilege in the world and did or are doing exactly that...nothing.

 

But I don't think a person working at McDonald's deserves more than very little...as they are doing very little, and the work itself takes very little skill in any regard.

[Jenksismyhero]

If someone else is picking up the health care costs and retirement costs.

 

And society already does that. So again, what's a basic income/living wage that you all want. I want a dollar figure.

 

Edit to your edit: kids are not a right! if you can't afford them YOU SHOULD BE PUT IN JAIL FOR CHILD ABUSE.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

And society already does that. So again, what's a basic income/living wage that you all want. I want a dollar figure.

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care act thanks you for coming out in strong support of it.

[Jenksismyhero]

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care act thanks you for coming out in strong support of it.

 

Cute.

[Iwritecode]

What's a living wage? Please define it.

 

It's not possible. There are way too many factors to consider. Family size, married or single, lifestyle, where you live, etc...

 

There is no one-size-fits-all "living wage".

 

[DukeNukeEm]

Duke I think you're being some what stubborn about this topic. Think of it like this, college and insurance are very similar volatile topics.

 

In college, you either had your parents pay, took out loans, or were subsidized via financial aid. The very few were given scholarships. Your tax money is spent to help poor people go to school so that they may have a chance some day. Some people, take advantage of it fully and will become productive members of society and the cycle will start again since they will be paying into the system.

 

Insurance, now, is working in a similar way. It's trying to give everyone a chance. Not everyone has the same deck of cards. Reddy is chasing his dream and if he succeeds, that subsidized insurance he got will be a drop in the bucket compared to how they'll tax his multi million dollar paycheck. Of course this is hypothetically speaking. Don't look at everything as black and white as they will only cloud your view. Sometimes you just need a little grey to see a greater perspective.

 

All in all, don't let the losers who milk the system ruin it for those who could benefit. I for one am happy my tax dollars goes to help people instead of the rotten corrupt politicians in Washington.

Heres the issue I have,

 

You provide college free, as so many here seem to want. They call it an investment and we'll get our money back.

 

Then you create a big plan to provide basic income, so listless 20-somethings dont have to worry. Its an investment, we'll get our money back.

 

Now theyre getting a little older. Their bodies are developing some issues that cost money to fix. But it keeps them working, its an investment we'll get our money back.

 

Soon they make an oops. Credit card debt, foreclosure, they get laid off. We'll take care of that too, its an investment we'll get our money back.

 

Now theyre 50, knocking on the door of retirement. They demand the SS and Medical coverage because they paid into it. They dont want to work anymore, either. Our investment? More like a Ponzi Scheme.

[DukeNukeEm]

This is where you are wrong. Point me to a culture or a civilization throughout all of history that was completely devoid of art

Yea, we dont need an entire generation filling that quota.

[Jenksismyhero]

It's not possible. There are way too many factors to consider. Family size, married or single, lifestyle, where you live, etc...

 

There is no one-size-fits-all "living wage".

 

Bingo. Which is why the whole concept is dumb. We have a minimum wage. We provide protections and services for the poor. There's nothing else society can or should do. The rest is up to individual resolve and self responsibility.

 

(this is a general comment. i'm sure there are tweaks and changes to our current system that are necessary. we don't need to become socialists like SS)

[Balta1701]

Cute.

It's a serious reply, all things considered. When we have people making minimum wage, they're often not eligible for Medicaid and they're stuck into the horrible indivudual market where it's virtually impossible to actually get reasonable coverage. That market was a disaster, and I hope you're not going to give me the "oh they can just go to the ER to get their heart medication" joke.

 

In Tennessee, many of those people wind up lining up for hours waiting for "Remote Area Medical" free clinics when they're held, just to get basic things like a tooth pulled from the kind of doctors who should be helping out 3rd world countries but found one within the united states.

 

The way we're actually going to cover those people's health care to make life actually livable on those wages is the PPACA.

[pettie4sox]

Heres the issue I have,

 

You provide college free, as so many here seem to want. They call it an investment and we'll get our money back.

 

Then you create a big plan to provide basic income, so listless 20-somethings dont have to worry. Its an investment, we'll get our money back.

 

Now theyre getting a little older. Their bodies are developing some issues that cost money to fix. But it keeps them working, its an investment we'll get our money back.

 

Soon they make an oops. Credit card debt, foreclosure, they get laid off. We'll take care of that too, its an investment we'll get our money back.

 

Now theyre 50, knocking on the door of retirement. They demand the SS and Medical coverage because they paid into it. They dont want to work anymore, either. Our investment? More like a Ponzi Scheme.

 

Who is the hypothetically "they" you speak of? The generalizations are detrimental to the points you're trying to make.

[Balta1701]

Now theyre 50, knocking on the door of retirement. They demand the SS and Medical coverage because they paid into it. They dont want to work anymore, either. Our investment? More like a Ponzi Scheme.

You realize that a person near 50 has nearly 2 decades to go before they qualify for full OASDI benefits and 1.5 decades to go before Medicare?

[StrangeSox]

I'd like to know what a "basic income" would entail. Because you know as soon as you set that line, that hand will be out flat again asking for more.

I know, you say this same thing every time. You can read more about basic income if you want, there's lots of literature out there. The city of delphine ran an experiment a while back and found positive results.

[StrangeSox]

Im going to try my best here to not be insulting.

 

We really dont need you. At all, even if I were using the term "you" broadly to address the many others living near identical lives. We need lawyers (sadly), geologists, truck drivers and sad office drones. We dont need dreamchasing actors. America would keep chugging along in their absence.

 

Theres really no nobility to it either. But if I go further down that road Im afraid Ill have no choice but to insult so Ill stop here.

Culture and the arts are worthless. Humanity should only focus on production and consumption of tangible goods.