OBAMA/TRUMPCARE MEGATHREAD

[Jenksismyhero]

Really so if a Dr prescribes me 1 of the 4 birth control that hobby lobby objects to, hobby lobby has to pay for it?

 

Its all fun and games when your religion is the one that is preferred.

 

(edit)

 

No its alarming that the govt would give a thumbs up to any religion.

 

No, it's inaccurate because no one is stopping them from getting the contraception they want. They might be making it more difficult, but they're not "stopping" them.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Typical. Nobody cares if they offend people over religious issues. Thanks for the confirmation.

I'm genuinely offended that you refuse to even read people's replies to you when they say you are flat out wrong. And you don't care either.

[Soxbadger]

Typical. Nobody cares if they offend people over religious issues. Thanks for the confirmation.

 

 

Exactly.

 

Religious freedoms mean that people have the right to believe or not believe.

 

I dont force my beliefs on believers, why should they get to force their beliefs on me?

 

That seems fair.

[Jenksismyhero]

That is an accurate description of the owners of Hobby Lobby's complaint.

 

Well, that's probably true, but they have better, longer-standing law on their side. You guys are acting like some right that we've had for 200 years is suddenly being taken away.

[Jake]

Funny:

 

http://plannedparenthood.tumblr.com/post/2...oes-an-iud-cost

 

 

 

I'm sorry, you guys are really grasping at straws here to make this a much bigger deal than it is.

 

You act like dropping a grand on anything is feasible for your average Hobby Lobby employee

[Soxbadger]

No, it's inaccurate because no one is stopping them from getting the contraception they want. They might be making it more difficult, but they're not "stopping" them.

 

If they cant afford it, they are 100% being stopped. Its entirely the same idea.

 

If this is allowable, a business run by Jehova's Witness should also be allowed not to pay for blood transfusions through insurance.

 

But like I said, as long as its your religion/position that is winning, you really seem to not care about the consequence.

 

[StrangeSox]

You act like dropping a grand on anything is feasible for your average Hobby Lobby employee

Hey, it's not like the owners of Hobby Lobby were claiming that paying an insurance company to provide a plan that would pay for contraceptives if an employee needed them was a substantial burden....oh, right.

 

Hey, at least when it comes to the actually substantial burdens that numerous states have imposed on abortion services providers that effectively eliminate them from the state, courts have swiftly and strongly declared that these represent substantial burdens on people seeking an abortion. Right?

[Soxbadger]

Well, that's probably true, but they have better, longer-standing law on their side. You guys are acting like some right that we've had for 200 years is suddenly being taken away.

 

Well for the majority of history separation of church and state was not common, but then again, I also dont think we should go back to an era when the Catholic church got to put scientists to death for daring to question their authority.

 

But hey, always works well when religion tells drs/scientists whats best.

 

CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE, CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE!

[Jenksismyhero]

You act like dropping a grand on anything is feasible for your average Hobby Lobby employee

 

So drop the employer plan you don't want and sign up for Obamacare. Problem solved.

 

[StrangeSox]

So drop the employer plan you don't want and sign up for Obamacare. Problem solved.

I'm guessing you don't understand how the exchange plan subsidies would work under that scenario.

[Jenksismyhero]

If they cant afford it, they are 100% being stopped. Its entirely the same idea.

 

If this is allowable, a business run by Jehova's Witness should also be allowed not to pay for blood transfusions through insurance.

 

But like I said, as long as its your religion/position that is winning, you really seem to not care about the consequence.

 

Go to planned parenthood. If you can't afford it, they'll let you have it. It's really not difficult. 90% of 18 year old females in college do it.

 

As to your second point, maybe they should? You're Mr. Free Market capitalist, why are you backing legislation that forces employers to do something they don't want to do?

 

And while Christianity is my religion, and I do believe that abortion is wrong, i'm not sure I go to the level of contraception=abortion like these guys. But i'll defend their right to run their business as they see fit.

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm guessing you don't understand how the exchange plan subsidies would work under that scenario.

 

Probably not as well as you, that's true.

[Jenksismyhero]

Religious freedoms mean that people have the right to believe or not believe.

 

I dont force my beliefs on believers, why should they get to force their beliefs on me?

 

That seems fair.

 

Jesus, I missed this. Balta 2.0. No one is forcing these employees to believe anything.

 

[Balta1701]

Jesus, I missed this. Balta 2.0. No one is forcing these employees to believe anything.

I can't think of any other case where having to pay an additional ~$1000 or so is termed anything like an "individual mandate", can anyone help me out?

[Soxbadger]

Go to planned parenthood. If you can't afford it, they'll let you have it. It's really not difficult. 90% of 18 year old females in college do it.

 

As to your second point, maybe they should? You're Mr. Free Market capitalist, why are you backing legislation that forces employers to do something they don't want to do?

 

And while Christianity is my religion, and I do believe that abortion is wrong, i'm not sure I go to the level of contraception=abortion like these guys. But i'll defend their right to run their business as they see fit.

 

Jenks,

 

1) Im not sure you understand the ruling. Hobby Lobby does not have to provide the following, regardless of Dr's advice:

 

Plan B (“The Morning After Pill”)

Ella (a similar type of “emergency contraception”)

Copper Intra-Uterine Device

IUD with progestin

 

Ill just take the first one I found:

 

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-in...rth-control/iud

 

You need to see a health care provider to get an IUD. Your health care provider can help you decide if an IUD is right for you. You can find a health care provider who can help you with getting an IUD at your local Planned Parenthood health center or at other clinics.

 

The IUD is the most inexpensive long-term and reversible form of birth control you can get. Unlike other forms of birth control, the IUD only costs money in the beginning. The cost for the medical exam, the IUD, the insertion of the IUD, and follow-up visits to your health care provider can range from $500 to $1,000. That cost pays for protection that can last from 5 to 12 years, depending on which IUD you choose. In general, hormonal IUDs costs more than the ParaGard.

 

Planned Parenthood works to make health care accessible and affordable. Some health centers are able to charge according to income. Most accept health insurance. If you qualify, Medicaid or other state programs may lower your health care costs.

 

Call your local Planned Parenthood health center to get specific information on costs.

 

 

Where is that free?

 

2) Separation of church and state is more important than free market. I dont care if Hobby Lobby doesnt have to provide the above, as long as you agree its okay if Jehova's Witness dont want to provide for transfusions, etc etc.

 

3) No youll defend your belief system. If this was a non-christian religion it would never have been allowed.

 

 

Jesus, I missed this. Balta 2.0. No one is forcing these employees to believe anything.

 

Yes they are. They are forcing employees to not receive certain treatments because of their faith.

 

But I get it, your just defending your team, its the same old religion > science that has been going on for the last 1500 years.

 

[StrangeSox]

Probably not as well as you, that's true.

...is this some kind of a burn?

 

Either way, I'm pretty sure that, because her employer offers a plan that complies with the mandatory minimums plus special "eww icky" exemptions, she would not be entitled to any subsidies. Your solution of buying an exchange plan would be no cheaper than paying $1000+ for an IUD out of pocket.

[StrangeSox]

Jenks,

 

1) Im not sure you understand the ruling. Hobby Lobby does not have to provide the following, regardless of Dr's advice:

 

Plan B (“The Morning After Pill”)

Ella (a similar type of “emergency contraception”)

Copper Intra-Uterine Device

IUD with progestin

 

Important to note is that with some rulings/actions yesterday, they clarified that the RFRA "sluts and their birth control" exemption extends to any and all forms of birth control, not just the four that the owners of Hobby Lobby incorrectly claim cause abortions.

[StrangeSox]

Jesus, I missed this. Balta 2.0. No one is forcing these employees to believe anything.

 

Nobody forces the owners of Hobby Lobby to believe in abortion (or what they think causes abortion) by requiring them to offer a health insurance plan as part of their employee compensation that includes contraceptives.

[Jenksismyhero]

Jenks,

 

1) Im not sure you understand the ruling. Hobby Lobby does not have to provide the following, regardless of Dr's advice:

 

Plan B (“The Morning After Pill”)

Ella (a similar type of “emergency contraception”)

Copper Intra-Uterine Device

IUD with progestin

 

Ill just take the first one I found:

 

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-in...rth-control/iud

 

You need to see a health care provider to get an IUD. Your health care provider can help you decide if an IUD is right for you. You can find a health care provider who can help you with getting an IUD at your local Planned Parenthood health center or at other clinics.

 

The IUD is the most inexpensive long-term and reversible form of birth control you can get. Unlike other forms of birth control, the IUD only costs money in the beginning. The cost for the medical exam, the IUD, the insertion of the IUD, and follow-up visits to your health care provider can range from $500 to $1,000. That cost pays for protection that can last from 5 to 12 years, depending on which IUD you choose. In general, hormonal IUDs costs more than the ParaGard.

 

Planned Parenthood works to make health care accessible and affordable. Some health centers are able to charge according to income. Most accept health insurance. If you qualify, Medicaid or other state programs may lower your health care costs.

 

Call your local Planned Parenthood health center to get specific information on costs.

 

 

Where is that free?

 

2) Separation of church and state is more important than free market. I dont care if Hobby Lobby doesnt have to provide the above, as long as you agree its okay if Jehova's Witness dont want to provide for transfusions, etc etc.

 

3) No youll defend your belief system. If this was a non-christian religion it would never have been allowed.

 

 

 

 

Yes they are. They are forcing employees to not receive certain treatments because of their faith.

 

But I get it, your just defending your team, its the same old religion > science that has been going on for the last 1500 years.

 

1) I never said it was free, i said they could go to planned parenthood where they charge based on income. If they can't afford it, it's provided to most people.

 

2) I love that separation of church and state only applies the one direction but not the other. What's the point of saying you have the freedom to exercise your religion if you can't exercise your religion?

 

3) I'm not exactly the most devote Christian out there. I haven't been to church in years. I'm MUCH more accepting of other religions and more than happy to point out the problems with Christianity, moreso than 90% of Christians out there, but this really comes down to government interference vs. personal freedom. I dislike nearly all laws that force you to do things you don't want to do. You should have a very compelling reason to do that to people. Providing birth control is not a compelling enough reason when other alternatives exist.

 

4) No, they're still not being FORCED to BELIEVE something they don't want to believe. They may be inconvenienced by this, they may have to get a new job or pay for their own birth control, they are not being FORCED to BELIEVE that contraception = abortion.

 

This has nothing to do with a science over religion argument.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[Jenksismyhero]

...is this some kind of a burn?

 

Either way, I'm pretty sure that, because her employer offers a plan that complies with the mandatory minimums plus special "eww icky" exemptions, she would not be entitled to any subsidies. Your solution of buying an exchange plan would be no cheaper than paying $1000+ for an IUD out of pocket.

 

No, it wasn't.

 

And ok? So what? She has an alternative, go utilize it.

[StrangeSox]

4) No, they're still not being FORCED to BELIEVE something they don't want to believe. They may be inconvenienced by this, they may have to get a new job or pay for their own birth control, they are not being FORCED to BELIEVE that contraception = abortion.

 

Interestingly enough, the Greens aren't FORCED to BELIEVE in the moral correctness of abortions or contraceptives by being required to pay for an insurance plan, either.

[Jenksismyhero]

Nobody forces the owners of Hobby Lobby to believe in abortion (or what they think causes abortion) by requiring them to offer a health insurance plan as part of their employee compensation that includes contraceptives.

 

The law doesn't force them to believe that abortions are NOT caused by contraception, but it does force them to support something financially that they don't agree with based on their religious beliefs.

[StrangeSox]

No, it wasn't.

 

And ok? So what? She has an alternative, go utilize it.

 

The Greens have an alternative of closing up shop if they don't like the law (or at least that's they way it should be). This ruling will deprive people of access to health care they would otherwise have received. That's a hell of a lot more of a substantial burden than anything the Greens faced.

[Jenksismyhero]

Interestingly enough, the Greens aren't FORCED to BELIEVE in the moral correctness of abortions or contraceptives by being required to pay for an insurance plan, either.

 

This has nothing to do with beliefs (again, a moronic argument started by Balta). It's about being forced to perform an action that's against your beliefs, in this case supporting something financially.

[StrangeSox]

The law doesn't force them to believe that abortions are NOT caused by contraception, but it does force them to support something financially that they don't agree with based on their religious beliefs.

 

So what? It doesn't actually force them to change their religious beliefs. Quakers aren't exempt from taxation just because a substantial portion of our money goes to the DoD.

 

Also, again, they already support those things financially by providing matching funds to their 401k plan that invests in the companies that make those things. The employees choose whether or not to invest in those plans just as they choose whether or not to utilize contraceptives, so they are functionally identical scenarios.