OBAMA/TRUMPCARE MEGATHREAD

[Y2HH]

The problem with his statement was that he ignored 99% of what creates a business and praised the 1% society provides (teachers/roads/etc) all while ignoring that the business owner still pays for that 1%, so it's not like some free service he/she got.

 

The internet is a good example. The government created the "internet" as part of the military, then academia took it over and then capitalism took over. The government has little involvement in 99% of why the internet is what it is.

 

The government also tried to give AT&T the internet, flat out, full ownership if they took over the project. Thankfully AT&T refused on the premise that nobody would ever need such a thing.

[Jenksismyhero]

Also to add onto what Alpha Dog brought up a few pages ago, with my kid that I recently had, "we" (my insurance company and I) paid out the ass for her doctor. Every visit was a $450 charge - $150 for the doctor, $300 for the ultrasound machine. Multiply that by about 12 visits prior to delivery and i'd say she spent a TOTAL of an hour meeting with my wife (generous). An hour of talk and a quick scan for $5,400 bucks. That's insane.

 

What really cracks me up though is that people don't understand that we already have a universal healthcare system. It's just done indirectly. That money i pay to the doctor goes straight to the hospital (in this case Rush), who then turns around and uses their cut to fund their public clinics and programs. That happens at the majority of hospitals.

[Y2HH]

Al Gore never claimed he invented the internet, that's something conservatives invented and the media uncritically repeated.

 

Actually, yes, he did.

 

[StrangeSox]

The problem with his statement was that he ignored 99% of what creates a business and praised the 1% society provides (teachers/roads/etc) all while ignoring that the business owner still pays for that 1%, so it's not like some free service he/she got.

 

But the business owner can only operate his successful business because of the roads and infrastructure and research and education that are in place. It's a symbiotic relationship. At the bare minimum, government (fed, state, local) provides ~40% GDP. That is simply direct budget spending and doesn't take into account the benefits of things like functional roadways and airports, reliable judicial systems, police and an educated populace.

 

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/total_spending_2010USrn

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_gdp_history

 

The internet is a good example. The government created the "internet" as part of the military, then academia took it over and then capitalism took over. The government has little involvement in 99% of why the internet is what it is.

 

This is a false history of the development of the internet. I hope you're not relying on that really inaccurate, widely refuted (including by the people he cited) WSJ editorial from a month or so ago.

 

The government's development of the initial concepts stretches throughout the entire history of the internet up through the commercialization in the early 90's. The government has heavy involvement in why the internet is what it is instead of a a bunch of little Compuserve-esque domains and why there's a "World Wide Web."

[Y2HH]

This is a false history of the development of the internet. I hope you're not relying on that really inaccurate, widely refuted (including by the people he cited) WSJ editorial from a month or so ago.

 

The government's development of the initial concepts stretches throughout the entire history of the internet up through the commercialization in the early 90's. The government has heavy involvement in why the internet is what it is instead of a a bunch of little Compuserve-esque domains and why there's a "World Wide Web."

 

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[StrangeSox]

Also to add onto what Alpha Dog brought up a few pages ago, with my kid that I recently had, "we" (my insurance company and I) paid out the ass for her doctor. Every visit was a $450 charge - $150 for the doctor, $300 for the ultrasound machine. Multiply that by about 12 visits prior to delivery and i'd say she spent a TOTAL of an hour meeting with my wife (generous). An hour of talk and a quick scan for $5,400 bucks. That's insane.

 

What really cracks me up though is that people don't understand that we already have a universal healthcare system. It's just done indirectly. That money i pay to the doctor goes straight to the hospital (in this case Rush), who then turns around and uses their cut to fund their public clinics and programs. That happens at the majority of hospitals.

 

Millions of people do not have reliable access to healthcare for anything but acute illnesses. We do not have UHC under any reasonable definition of the word. Free clinics are not widely and regularly available and cannot treat all illnesses, especially long-term or chronic illness that requires regular medication and/or therapy.

[StrangeSox]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Where and how? The WWW and web browsers were developed at CERN and UIUC, both government entities.

[Y2HH]

Where and how? The WWW and web browsers were developed at CERN and UIUC, both government entities.

 

The world wide web is not the Internet.

 

And I know where it was invented.

 

You've cherry picked one thing from a huge sentence you had written now.

[StrangeSox]

Actually, yes, he did.

 

 

Actually, no, he didn't, and the pioneers of the field think that attack was ridiculous. Al Gore was promoting the value of the internet before anyone else in Congress and was crucial in securing funding for the expansion and commercialization. He correctly took credit for that foresight, but he didn't claim to have invented the internet.

[StrangeSox]

The world wide web is not the Internet.

 

And I know where it was invented.

 

You've cherry picked one thing from a huge sentence you had written now.

 

I picked that because I knew that off the top of my head without having to go link-finding.

[Y2HH]

Actually, no, he didn't, and the pioneers of the field think that attack was ridiculous. Al Gore was promoting the value of the internet before anyone else in Congress and was crucial in securing funding for the expansion and commercialization. He correctly took credit for that foresight, but he didn't claim to have invented the internet.

 

Watch the f***ing video. He says it right there.

 

Was it what he actually meant? No. But he DID, in fact, say it that way. So while it was taken out of context, it WAS something he said.

 

He says he took the initiave in creating the internet...and he had nothing to do with the initial "creation" of DARPANET...NONE...ZERO.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Y2HH

[Jenksismyhero]

Millions of people do not have reliable access to healthcare for anything but acute illnesses. We do not have UHC under any reasonable definition of the word. Free clinics are not widely and regularly available and cannot treat all illnesses, especially long-term or chronic illness that requires regular medication and/or therapy.

 

100% bulls***.

[StrangeSox]

Michael Hiltzik: Who Invented The Internet?

 

So the bottom line is that the Internet as we know it was indeed born as a government project. In fact, without ARPA and Bob Taylor, it could not have come into existence. Private enterprise had no interest in something so visionary and complex, with questionable commercial opportunities. Indeed, the private corporation that then owned monopoly control over America's communications network, AT&T, fought tooth and nail against the ARPANet. Luckily for us, a far-sighted government agency prevailed.

 

It's true that the Internet took off after it was privatized in 1995. But to be privatized, first you have to be government-owned. It's another testament to people often demeaned as "government bureaucrats" that they saw that the moment had come to set their child free.

 

There's a bunch more where that came from if you want me to dig them up. There was a deluge after that terrible WSJ editorial referenced in the article.

[Y2HH]

Michael Hiltzik: Who Invented The Internet?

 

 

 

There's a bunch more where that came from if you want me to dig them up. There was a deluge after that terrible WSJ editorial referenced in the article.

 

I'm not arguing the government created the initial concept...nor is anyone else.

 

The post you initially replied too said the government created it, it was handed off to academia, and then the private industry...and that's exactly what happened.

[StrangeSox]

Watch the f***ing video. He says it right there.

 

Was it what he actually meant? No. But he DID, in fact, say it that way. It's right there in the video I posted.

 

He says he took the initiave in creating the internet...and he had nothing to do with the initial "creation" of DARPANET...NONE...ZERO.

 

DARPANET is not the internet as we know it or as people knew it in 1999, and he didn't claim to have invented the internet. He claimed to have taken the initiative in creating The Internet, which his policy and legislative record (and pioneers of the field) supports.

[Y2HH]

DARPANET is not the internet as we know it or as people knew it in 1999, and he didn't claim to have invented the internet. He claimed to have taken the initiative in creating The Internet, which his policy and legislative record (and pioneers of the field) supports.

 

Actually, yes it is.

 

DARPANET became ARPANET became INTERNET.

 

They aren't new networks...they're the same packet switching concept renamed.

[StrangeSox]

I'm not arguing the government created the initial concept...nor is anyone else.

 

The post you initially replied too said the government created it, it was handed off to academia, and then the private industry...and that's exactly what happened.

 

Jenks said that the government had nothing to do with 99% of it, which is plainly wrong. And academia is mostly government or government-funded anyway.

[Balta1701]

Jenks said that the government had nothing to do with 99% of it, which is plainly wrong. And academia is mostly government or government-funded anyway.

(Well, that and more and more paid for by college students as the government funding gets cut back).

[Jenksismyhero]

Michael Hiltzik: Who Invented The Internet?

 

 

 

There's a bunch more where that came from if you want me to dig them up. There was a deluge after that terrible WSJ editorial referenced in the article.

 

Yeah, his last line is my point. What the internet is today has nothing to do with what the government created in the beginning. So to come back later and tell Google or Amazon that they didn't build the internet because in reality the government started it is completely disingenuous.

 

and it's worse in the example of real businesses when you're talking about education and roads and whatnot because those businesses actually contribute to those services. The internet, or at least the skeleton of the internet and WWW was provided to private business.

[StrangeSox]

You know what, I'm not going to argue with someone who still clings to the "Al Gore invented the internet!" This post has been edited by the Soxtalk staff to remove objectionable material. Soxtalk encourages a free discussion between its members, but does not allow personal attacks, threats, graphic sexual material, nudity, or any other materials judged offensive by the Administrators and Moderators. Thank you.

 

If you want to talk about the government's role in the development of the internet, I'm fine with that.

[Jenksismyhero]

Jenks said that the government had nothing to do with 99% of it, which is plainly wrong. And academia is mostly government or government-funded anyway.

 

Yes, please hold me to my made up 99% figure.

 

The point is the vast majority of the internet has nothing to do with the government. The government created the skeleton at most, but everything since is private innovation.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, his last line is my point. What the internet is today has nothing to do with what the government created in the beginning. So to come back later and tell Google or Amazon that they didn't build the internet because in reality the government started it is completely disingenuous.

 

and it's worse in the example of real businesses when you're talking about education and roads and whatnot because those businesses actually contribute to those services. The internet, or at least the skeleton of the internet and WWW was provided to private business.

 

But it wasn't just ARPA that the government created. It was central in the development and privatization of the internet into the mid-90's.

 

It's not worse in the example of physical businesses. The whole point (yes, ss2k5, there is one!) is that there's a symbiotic relationship and abandoning that relationship because you fail to recognize that nobody is a completely self-made person and everyone relies on society in some way will only hurt the economy and individuals in the long run.

[Y2HH]

Jenks said that the government had nothing to do with 99% of it, which is plainly wrong. And academia is mostly government or government-funded anyway.

 

I think it's pretty clear that the concept of packet switching was created via government funding...but that was merely scratching the surface of the internet.

 

You can even give CERN/UIUC credit (part government/part academia) for creating the initial http1 spec Web/Web Browser.

 

But from there, private industry drove most of the innovation you see today.

 

Are you still using Mosiac? No. You're using a modern browser created by PRIVATE industry, be it Safari, Chrome, IE, etc. Flash, private. ActiveX, private. H264, private.

 

Nobody is refuting the initial concept of packet switching was driven by government funding...it's the backbone of TCP/IP.

 

If we had left it up to the government, and private industry did nothing to push innovation...you'd probably still be in the late 90's web...which was garbage in comparison.

[Y2HH]

But it wasn't just ARPA that the government created. It was central in the development and privatization of the internet into the mid-90's.

 

It's not worse in the example of physical businesses. The whole point (yes, ss2k5, there is one!) is that there's a symbiotic relationship and abandoning that relationship because you fail to recognize that nobody is a completely self-made person and everyone relies on society in some way will only hurt the economy and individuals in the long run.

 

I do NOT disagree with you on this.

 

There is no self made man/woman/child. That we agree on. IMO government IS necessary...it's reach, however, is where we seem to disagree.

[StrangeSox]

Yes, please hold me to my made up 99% figure.

 

The point is the vast majority of the internet has nothing to do with the government. The government created the skeleton at most, but everything since is private innovation.

 

But that point is wrong. The Internet remains an excellent example of beneficial government spending and the symbiotic relationship between public and private.