OBAMA/TRUMPCARE MEGATHREAD

[Y2HH]

Absolutely

 

Lawyers should make 0 profit. In fact if I really had my way lawyers would be far more regulated and their salaries would be fixed. That way we can ensure that everyone actually gets justice, not that one side has a lot more money so they have a disproportionate advantage.

 

Why don't you just go all the way and say you want to live in Orwellian world.

 

No thanks.

[Jenksismyhero]

Absolutely

 

Lawyers should make 0 profit. In fact if I really had my way lawyers would be far more regulated and their salaries would be fixed. That way we can ensure that everyone actually gets justice, not that one side has a lot more money so they have a disproportionate advantage.

 

I don't really see that as a concern in the PI/Med Mal/WD arena that we're talking about.

[Soxbadger]

But despite these things, we HAVE improved human existence. A LOT.

 

Sure things have improved.

 

And I can make them better. Good enough may be okay for people like you, but its not for me.

 

 

Why don't you just go all the way and say you want to live in Orwellian world.

 

No thanks.

 

Really? Orwellian? Do you even know what that means? Id be pretty much the exact opposite of big brother. I hate regulations/restrictions. I want no rules.

 

 

[Y2HH]

Sure things have improved.

 

And I can make them better. Good enough may be okay for people like you, but its not for me.

 

 

 

 

Really? Orwellian? Do you even know what that means? Id be pretty much the exact opposite of big brother. I hate regulations/restrictions. I want no rules.

 

Then stop asking for rules to regulate everyones pay/profit margin, how money is distributed, etc.

 

Da fuq?

 

You JUST said that you think these should all be zero profit industries.

 

Then you pretend you want no rules and restrictions?

 

Yes, I know what Orwellian means, and it's exactly what you want, only you think you don't.

 

You don't hate regulations/restrictions, you love them. That's exactly what you've been asking for here, over and over.

 

I think you've lost it, and/or have confused yourself at this point.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Y2HH

[Soxbadger]

I don't really see that as a concern in the PI/Med Mal/WD arena that we're talking about.

 

You were the one that asked if attorneys should make profit. I answered that in no area should they make profit. In a better world the reason people become lawyers/drs is to use their abilities to help others, not to make money.

 

My original response was to y2hh because he said insurance companies dont make a lot of profit, and I just happen to have a little bit of insight into how you can make a lot of money, but show very little profit. So I wanted to make sure it was clear that there are plenty of people in the insurance game making millions upon millions.

[Soxbadger]

Then stop asking for rules to regulate everyones pay/profit margin, how money is distributed, etc.

 

Da fuq?

 

You JUST said that you think these should all be zero profit industries.

 

Then you pretend you want no rules and restrictions?

 

Yes, I know what Orwellian means, and it's exactly what you want, only you think you don't.

 

You don't hate regulations/restrictions, you love them. That's exactly what you've been asking for here, over and over.

 

I think you've lost it, and/or have confused yourself at this point.

 

 

Where did I say that the govt should regulate it?

 

I said "This is what I think". Just because I believe that the world should be better, doesnt mean I think that the govt should force it upon people.

 

Those are 2 different issues, perhaps you have confused yourself.

 

Unless you can find where I said "The govt should enforce this".

 

Prove me wrong.

[Y2HH]

You were the one that asked if attorneys should make profit. I answered that in no area should they make profit. In a better world the reason people become lawyers/drs is to use their abilities to help others, not to make money.

 

My original response was to y2hh because he said insurance companies dont make a lot of profit, and I just happen to have a little bit of insight into how you can make a lot of money, but show very little profit. So I wanted to make sure it was clear that there are plenty of people in the insurance game making millions upon millions.

 

They're making millions because the slice of the pie medical care covers is astoundingly massive. But their profit margins are still very low.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Y2HH

[Y2HH]

Where did I say that the govt should regulate it?

 

I said "This is what I think". Just because I believe that the world should be better, doesnt mean I think that the govt should force it upon people.

 

Those are 2 different issues, perhaps you have confused yourself.

 

Unless you can find where I said "The govt should enforce this".

 

Prove me wrong.

 

If a government doesn't enforce it, the free market enforces it. That means profit. What you're saying is akin to being a little bit pregnant. Either you want something to govern with all power, or you don't. There is no in between.

 

If it's utopia you want, why bother having a conversation? That's a dream world, and it's not happening, ever...so stop wasting everyones time by injecting it into the real world conversation we're having.

[Soxbadger]

They're making millions because the slice of the pie medical care covers is astoundingly massive. But their profit margins are still very low.

 

Do you understand "profit margin" is a meaningless term if I am sticking "hundreds of millions of dollars of compensation" into the cost?

 

Profit is Revenue minus expenses. Thus if I put things like "trip for CEOs to Hawaii" into expenses, I made less profit.

[Y2HH]

Do you understand "profit margin" is a meaningless term if I am sticking "hundreds of millions of dollars of compensation" into the cost?

 

Profit is Revenue minus expenses. Thus if I put things like "trip for CEOs to Hawaii" into expenses, I made less profit.

 

It's you that doesn't understand how profit margin works, as companies do not "hide" profits by paying executives to this extent, as it shows up on the public record, and the investors (shareholders) would demand answers.

 

If a publicly traded company was burying profits by giving them all to their executives, they'd all get voted out by the shareholders. It's as simple as that.

 

What you're saying simply isn't reality. Yes, they make millions...but that's not very much considering the massive revenues and payouts to care.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Y2HH

[Soxbadger]

If a government doesn't enforce it, the free market enforces it. That means profit. What you're saying is akin to being a little bit pregnant. Either you want something to govern with all power, or you don't. There is no in between.

 

If it's utopia you want, why bother having a conversation? That's a dream world, and it's not happening, ever...so stop wasting everyones time by injecting it into the real world conversation we're having.

 

Because I want people to choose for themselves to make less money so that everyone gets more.

 

That is what I want. I dont want the govt to tell you what the right thing is to do, I want you to look deep inside and realize what the right thing is to do.

 

I want a free market. You dont. Are you okay with no immigration rules, no minimum wage, no labor laws? No. Am I? Yes.

 

Why bother having the conversation?

 

Because I hope that I can make people think for themselves. Instead of just parroting what they read/see. Because Im tired of the lies and deceit from people who are all about themselves and only want more money/power whatever.

 

Why talk about utopia?

 

Because it never hurts to aim for the stars. Its a lot more interesting than the nonsense hide the ball arguments that most people are accustomed to.

[Jenksismyhero]

*shakes head in massive confusion*

[Soxbadger]

It's you that doesn't understand how profit margin works.

 

No I actually do understand how they work.

 

You just have yet to articulate why "profit margin" actually matters.

 

So please, explain to stupid old me, why it matters if the insurance company has a "low profit margin" when the insurance market is dominated by an oligarchy.

Thanks for playing.

[Y2HH]

No I actually do understand how they work.

 

You just have yet to articulate why "profit margin" actually matters.

 

So please, explain to stupid old me, why it matters if the insurance company has a "low profit margin" when the insurance market is dominated by an oligarchy.

Thanks for playing.

 

Because people erroneously think insurance companies are a massive for profit business, and it's not. The margins are quite thin in the medical landscape. Profit margins for drug companies and land ownership that lease to hospitals, however, are astoundingly high (20-40% in most cases), as compared to the margins of 3-5% for insurance companies.

 

And again, profits are NOT hidden simply by paying out lavish salaries and bonuses to executives. Most of these are publicly traded companies, and investors don't take kindly to profits being drained away by executives as you're claiming.

 

Just doesn't happen to that extent, nor for the reasons you claim.

[Soxbadger]

*shakes head in massive confusion*

 

You asked me a theoretical question about whether lawyers/drs should make profit.

 

I gave you a theoretical answer.

 

Then y2hh started to make it some sort of large point about how I want govt intervention. It was a massive leap on his part and has caused much confusion.

 

If he simply would have stuck to the original point:

 

Insurance companies are making considerable money and paying their executives a lot of money.

 

No one would be confused. But y2hh is now trying to change the subject into something completely different because he doesnt want to address the actual question:

 

Do you think its okay for insurance executives to make millions of dollars while we have some people in the US who cant afford even basic health care?

 

Its not about the govt, its about what you as a human think.

[Jenksismyhero]

You were the one that asked if attorneys should make profit. I answered that in no area should they make profit. In a better world the reason people become lawyers/drs is to use their abilities to help others, not to make money.

 

My original response was to y2hh because he said insurance companies dont make a lot of profit, and I just happen to have a little bit of insight into how you can make a lot of money, but show very little profit. So I wanted to make sure it was clear that there are plenty of people in the insurance game making millions upon millions.

 

IMO your concern of unfair justice doesn't present itself in this area of the law. The best of the best plaintiffs' attorneys get paid zero dollars until they obtain something for their client. And they can (and do) go up against the best of the best defense lawyers who get paid a set rate, regardless of the money involved.

[Soxbadger]

Because people erroneously think insurance companies are a massive for profit business, and it's not. The margins are quite thin in the medical landscape. Profit margins for drug companies and land ownership that lease to hospitals, however, are astoundingly high (20-40% in most cases), as compared to the margins of 3-5% for insurance companies.

 

And again, profits are NOT hidden simply by paying out lavish salaries and bonuses to executives. Most of these are publicly traded companies, and investors don't take kindly to profits being drained away by executives as you're claiming.

 

Just doesn't happen to that extent, nor for the reasons you claim.

 

I never said that other areas dont make more profit. I merely pointed out that when you count profit, you have already deducted the massive CEO salaries (thats a fact).

 

Im not sure what the rest of it has to do with anything.

[Soxbadger]

IMO your concern of unfair justice doesn't present itself in this area of the law. The best of the best plaintiffs' attorneys get paid zero dollars until they obtain something for their client. And they can (and do) go up against the best of the best defense lawyers who get paid a set rate, regardless of the money involved.

 

Id agree. Of all the areas Med Mal is probably one that has the most even battles between attorneys.

[Jenksismyhero]

You asked me a theoretical question about whether lawyers/drs should make profit.

 

I gave you a theoretical answer.

 

Then y2hh started to make it some sort of large point about how I want govt intervention. It was a massive leap on his part and has caused much confusion.

 

If he simply would have stuck to the original point:

 

Insurance companies are making considerable money and paying their executives a lot of money.

 

No one would be confused. But y2hh is now trying to change the subject into something completely different because he doesnt want to address the actual question:

 

Do you think its okay for insurance executives to make millions of dollars while we have some people in the US who cant afford even basic health care?

 

Its not about the govt, its about what you as a human think.

 

The issue is we were having a discussion about the real world, you interjected with a theoretical opinion and Y2HH and I continue to debate things that are real. That's fine if you want to have a theoretical debate, but his point is the only way to get to your theoretical world is to have massive government intervention, which you stated you don't want. Hence the disconnect here.

 

[Y2HH]

I never said that other areas dont make more profit. I merely pointed out that when you count profit, you have already deducted the massive CEO salaries (thats a fact).

 

Im not sure what the rest of it has to do with anything.

 

While part of the calculation, you are claiming that publicly traded insurance companies are artificially lowering their profit margins by paying out to executives...and again, no, that's just not the case. Investors wouldn't accept that, as it's their money, and they have the collective power, not some CEO inflating his salary to "hide profits".

 

That's just laughable.

[Y2HH]

The issue is we were having a discussion about the real world, you interjected with a theoretical opinion and Y2HH and I continue to debate things that are real. That's fine if you want to have a theoretical debate, but his point is the only way to get to your theoretical world is to have massive government intervention, which you stated you don't want. Hence the disconnect here.

 

Exactly how I felt.

 

If this was a theoretical discussion, I think anyone would be hard pressed to not want said utopia. Yes, it would be amazing to live in a world where nobody cares about profit, and where sickness/disease are eradicated...and that everyone is nice to everyone, and uses whatever skills they have for the betterment of all mankind.

 

That's not much of a discussion, however...because there is no reason to NOT want that.

[Soxbadger]

The issue is we were having a discussion about the real world, you interjected with a theoretical opinion and Y2HH and I continue to debate things that are real. That's fine if you want to have a theoretical debate, but his point is the only way to get to your theoretical world is to have massive government intervention, which you stated you don't want. Hence the disconnect here.

 

Well the problem is that without people voluntarily choosing to do the right thing, you need someone else to force them to do it. Which is ultimately why I dont really get involved in these discussions. I dont have a real answer for how you provide everyone with healthcare but at the same time dont create more rules/govt.

 

I understand its hypocritical, which is why instead of focusing on that, I want to try and find out if there is a baseline. If 99% of Americans felt that "everyone should get basic medical care" I have a lot less issue with govt trying to help make that happen. Now I understand that this can ultimately lead to the scenario in "Brave New World" but these are the type of things I struggle with.

 

Which is why once again, I really only started off commenting about the fact that 1) insurance executives are making a lot of money and 2) that for the most part is not considered profit.

 

 

While part of the calculation, you are claiming that publicly traded insurance companies are artificially lowering their profit margins by paying out to executives...and again, no, that's just not the case. Investors wouldn't accept that, as it's their money, and they have the collective power, not some CEO inflating his salary to "hide profits".

 

That's just laughable.

 

I actually never claimed any of that.

 

What I did do, was point out facts:

 

1) CEO compensation is a cost.

 

2) CEO's of insurance companies have been compensated very highly.

 

3) Profit is what is left over after revenue minus expenses.

 

4) A company can manipulate profit.

 

I never said that the insurance companies were "hiding" or doing anything. I simply pointed out actual facts.

 

Because you dont want to really address the issue, you keep trying to obscure the argument.

[Soxbadger]

Exactly how I felt.

 

If this was a theoretical discussion, I think anyone would be hard pressed to not want said utopia. Yes, it would be amazing to live in a world where nobody cares about profit, and where sickness/disease are eradicated...and that everyone is nice to everyone, and uses whatever skills they have for the betterment of all mankind.

 

That's not much of a discussion, however...because there is no reason to NOT want that.

 

Once again, instead of actually address the REAL WORLD topic, you want to confuse everyone.

 

This is a thread about healthcare in the United States.

 

The question is simply, do you think that everyone in the United States deserves a basic level of healthcare.

 

Thats not "Can we eradicate disease" thats not "can we eliminate all profit", "should people be nice" its just a simple yes or no question.

 

If you dont think that is an important question to ask in this thread, I dont know what is.

[southsider2k5]

Why do you always assume i'm an unintelligent boob that can't think for himself and just listens to what Hannity tells me (note: I do NOTE listen to Hannity)?

 

I consider an "everyone pays into the collective pool regardless of how much you take out" system socialistic. The only thing that's missing is the single entity owning everything, but when every entity involved is forced to do something as mandated by the single entity, it's the same thing.

 

And the key is to that system is that 9 out of 10 people will NEVER need to pay the large deductible. You're saving money for those people that don't use it, money that could be better spent on other goods and services.

 

We're getting there, step by step.

[illinilaw08]

While part of the calculation, you are claiming that publicly traded insurance companies are artificially lowering their profit margins by paying out to executives...and again, no, that's just not the case. Investors wouldn't accept that, as it's their money, and they have the collective power, not some CEO inflating his salary to "hide profits".

 

That's just laughable.

 

There is an incentive for any for profit insurance company to NOT pay claims, or to not insure people who, by virtue of losing life's lottery, have conditions that would cost the insurance company more to insure. Further, there's an incentive to shareholders to have the insurance companies maximize profit (the rationale behind the massive bonuses and salaries that CEOs and other high level executives obtain). When the insurance companies control the access to health care and are motivated by profit, the unlucky are excluded. That's why for profit, publicly traded, health insurance is a poor system to build a national health care system on.