OBAMA/TRUMPCARE MEGATHREAD

[Reddy]

Yea, we dont need an entire generation filling that quota.

I constitute an entire generation!? I'm frankly honored.

[StrangeSox]

It's not possible. There are way too many factors to consider. Family size, married or single, lifestyle, where you live, etc...

 

There is no one-size-fits-all "living wage".

It's not impossible to define. We already define per diem by county across the entire country, and look at taxes and other differently based on number of children,etc.

 

Alternatively, we could simplify with a non-means-tested universal basic income.

[StrangeSox]

Yea, we dont need an entire generation filling that quota.

There's not an entire generation that wants to be actors, though.

 

Implicit in your argument is that we have and should support an economic system that forces people to give up substantial portions of their lives doing things they get no enjoyment or fulfillment out of just to survive, at the same time as others are enriched by their efforts. I believe that economic systems should serve humanity, not the other way around.

[Jenksismyhero]

I know, you say this same thing every time. You can read more about basic income if you want, there's lots of literature out there. The city of delphine ran an experiment a while back and found positive results.

 

What I've read doesn't provide a hard number, nor does it answer my concern - you provide a basic level of income, and it's not enough. Just like....the minimum wage. It's a great idea in theory but in practice it doesn't work because people are never satisfied. So long as there are billionaires out there people will want everything they have. And if they don't have it, it's not fair, so they should get it.

[Reddy]

What I've read doesn't provide a hard number, nor does it answer my concern - you provide a basic level of income, and it's not enough. Just like....the minimum wage. It's a great idea in theory but in practice it doesn't work because people are never satisfied. So long as there are billionaires out there people will want everything they have. And if they don't have it, it's not fair, so they should get it.

the reason people are never satisfied is because a NATIONAL minimum wage truly makes no sense when one person lives in Iowa and the other NYC.

[illinilaw08]

And society already does that. So again, what's a basic income/living wage that you all want. I want a dollar figure.

 

Edit to your edit: kids are not a right! if you can't afford them YOU SHOULD BE PUT IN JAIL FOR CHILD ABUSE.

 

Jenks, I've noticed that you frequently express your frustration with people that have kids they can't afford. I share that frustration, but I think you are simplifying the problem.

 

The solution to that problem, however (and, again, I agree that it is a problem), is not to make life more terrible for the kid. Maybe the solution is to make access to basic birth control more readily available (since kids are going to have sex - birth control and condoms aren't cheap). The Conservative wing of this country cares a lot about providing rights to the unborn (and I'm not taking a position on that argument here) and then complain about the kids people can't afford to have. That logic derives from a place that believes people can and will abstain from their impulses to have sex when birth control isn't available. Kids aren't a right, well that's fine. But you can't stop them from having kids. So you punish the kids for the poor decision of that parent? And putting the parents in jail for child abuse (which I assume was made in jest) makes things even WORSE for the kid.

 

I don't know what the solution to that particular problem is, but to me anyway, the solution is not to stand up and say "well, so and so, you just shouldn't have had a kid in the first place!" So what's your solution?

[Reddy]

Jenks, I've noticed that you frequently express your frustration with people that have kids they can't afford. I share that frustration, but I think you are simplifying the problem.

 

The solution to that problem, however (and, again, I agree that it is a problem), is not to make life more terrible for the kid. Maybe the solution is to make access to basic birth control more readily available (since kids are going to have sex - birth control and condoms aren't cheap). The Conservative wing of this country cares a lot about providing rights to the unborn (and I'm not taking a position on that argument here) and then complain about the kids people can't afford to have. That logic derives from a place that believes people can and will abstain from their impulses to have sex when birth control isn't available. Kids aren't a right, well that's fine. But you can't stop them from having kids. So you punish the kids for the poor decision of that parent? And putting the parents in jail for child abuse (which I assume was made in jest) makes things even WORSE for the kid.

 

I don't know what the solution to that particular problem is, but to me anyway, the solution is not to stand up and say "well, so and so, you just shouldn't have had a kid in the first place!" So what's your solution?

I like you.

[Jenksismyhero]

the reason people are never satisfied is because a NATIONAL minimum wage truly makes no sense when one person lives in Iowa and the other NYC.

 

That still doesn't address my issue, which is that whatever number we come up - make a thousand different variations depending on your location - and there will ALWAYS be people arguing that it's not enough.

 

 

[Balta1701]

That still doesn't address my issue, which is that whatever number we come up - make a thousand different variations depending on your location - and there will ALWAYS be people arguing that it's not enough.

Then peg it to inflation, so that it stops "no longer being enough" every couple years.

[Reddy]

That still doesn't address my issue, which is that whatever number we come up - make a thousand different variations depending on your location - and there will ALWAYS be people arguing that it's not enough.

So that's your argument for doing nothing? It's a sound one.

[Jenksismyhero]

Jenks, I've noticed that you frequently express your frustration with people that have kids they can't afford. I share that frustration, but I think you are simplifying the problem.

 

The solution to that problem, however (and, again, I agree that it is a problem), is not to make life more terrible for the kid. Maybe the solution is to make access to basic birth control more readily available (since kids are going to have sex - birth control and condoms aren't cheap). The Conservative wing of this country cares a lot about providing rights to the unborn (and I'm not taking a position on that argument here) and then complain about the kids people can't afford to have. That logic derives from a place that believes people can and will abstain from their impulses to have sex when birth control isn't available. Kids aren't a right, well that's fine. But you can't stop them from having kids. So you punish the kids for the poor decision of that parent? And putting the parents in jail for child abuse (which I assume was made in jest) makes things even WORSE for the kid.

 

I don't know what the solution to that particular problem is, but to me anyway, the solution is not to stand up and say "well, so and so, you just shouldn't have had a kid in the first place!" So what's your solution?

 

I don't know the solution either (i've offered voluntary sterilization programs in the past), but I do know that paying a family a "basic income" or "living wage" isn't going to magically solve the problem either. I don't think the money helps at all. You've raised their standard of living slightly, but not enough to stop the generational problem. And again, as is, before becoming a socialists wet dream, we already take care of those kids. They have every opportunity in the world to get out of those terrible situations and succeed.

 

And why can't we stop them from having kids? I'm 100% serious when I say that if you become a parent and you can't support your kids you should be charged with child abuse. Maybe the kids need to be taken away. If you purposefully choose to be a stay at home mom to have a 3rd kid and then sign up for welfare (as a cousin of mine did recently) you should be charged with a crime.

 

I'm less concerned with the two teenagers that make a stupid mistake than I am with the grown adult working a full time job at mcdonalds with four kids b****ing about how she isn't making enough money.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Then peg it to inflation, so that it stops "no longer being enough" every couple years.

 

That's a tweak I can get behind, but it's still not going to provide the lifestyle you guys seem to think is a right.

[Jenksismyhero]

So that's your argument for doing nothing? It's a sound one.

 

The argument that we've tried it before and it didn't solve the problem so we shouldn't waste a ton of money and make the country/rest of society worse by doing so? Yeah, that's pretty much what i'm saying.

[cabiness42]

This is my solution to the problem, though it encompasses far more than health care.

 

First of all, yes, contraception should be widely available, but find some other way than forcing people who have religious objections to provide it. That's an absolutely terrible way to go about it. Planned Parenthood gets hundreds of millions of dollars in government money and tens of millions more in political donations, so if they're going to continue to get that money, make them responsible for providing it.

 

Secondly, nationwide, but especially in poor areas, we need a dramatic increase in education spending. Getting a kid a basic education and high school graduation is the best way to reduce the chances that he'll be a drain on government resources the rest of his life. Aside from teachers, schools need paraprofessionals whose job it is to be out in the community interacting with parents and making sure kids are at school when they're supposed to be. Also aside from teachers, schools need child care facilities that take kids age 3 and up from 6am to 9pm, so that parents can be free to have jobs without worrying about who will be caring for their kids. Yes, this is going to cost a lot of money, but a combination of cutting pork from the budget, modest tax increases, and the expected decrease in the need for other entitlement spending can cover this.

 

Thirdly, let's pass a law that automatically pegs the minimum wage to the cost of living. Having to have Congress argue about it every couple years doesn't help anybody.

 

There's probably more, but this is a start.

[pettie4sox]

This is my solution to the problem, though it encompasses far more than health care.

 

First of all, yes, contraception should be widely available, but find some other way than forcing people who have religious objections to provide it. That's an absolutely terrible way to go about it. Planned Parenthood gets hundreds of millions of dollars in government money and tens of millions more in political donations, so if they're going to continue to get that money, make them responsible for providing it.

 

Secondly, nationwide, but especially in poor areas, we need a dramatic increase in education spending. Getting a kid a basic education and high school graduation is the best way to reduce the chances that he'll be a drain on government resources the rest of his life. Aside from teachers, schools need paraprofessionals whose job it is to be out in the community interacting with parents and making sure kids are at school when they're supposed to be. Also aside from teachers, schools need child care facilities that take kids age 3 and up from 6am to 9pm, so that parents can be free to have jobs without worrying about who will be caring for their kids. Yes, this is going to cost a lot of money, but a combination of cutting pork from the budget, modest tax increases, and the expected decrease in the need for other entitlement spending can cover this.

 

Thirdly, let's pass a law that automatically pegs the minimum wage to the cost of living. Having to have Congress argue about it every couple years doesn't help anybody.

 

There's probably more, but this is a start.

 

Sad that a non politician like yourself can come up with ideas like this but the politicians in Washington are so inept.

 

[Balta1701]

The argument that we've tried it before and it didn't solve the problem so we shouldn't waste a ton of money and make the country/rest of society worse by doing so? Yeah, that's pretty much what i'm saying.

How have you established that a higher minimum wage "didn't solve the problem"? We've dramatically cut the minimum wage relative to inflation over the past 40 years or so and thus it shouldn't be surprising that we're judging it to be a much bigger problem now than it was previously.

 

My favorite example of this continues to be the Tennessee congresswoman who said we didn't need to raise the minimum wage because the $2.15 or so she received when she worked a minimum wage job in the late 60's was just fine...and when you adjusted that value for inflation it turned out to be about $14.

[Y2HH]

Sad that a non politician like yourself can come up with ideas like this but the politicians in Washington are so inept.

 

We already have dramatically high education spending.

 

Higher than anyone in the world.

 

A lot of good it's doing.

 

...and what the hell is the "cost of living", anyway?

Edited November 21, 2013 by Y2HH

[Texsox]

Im going to try my best here to not be insulting.

 

We really dont need you. At all, even if I were using the term "you" broadly to address the many others living near identical lives. We need lawyers (sadly), geologists, truck drivers and sad office drones. We dont need dreamchasing actors. America would keep chugging along in their absence.

 

Theres really no nobility to it either. But if I go further down that road Im afraid Ill have no choice but to insult so Ill stop here.

 

American movies are one of our greatest exports and generate nice incomes for a lot of people.

 

You do have great company in your ideas so I do not want to totally dismiss them. None other than Karl Marx felt that a capitalistic society will devolve into only doing what is necessary and ignore all things like art, literature, etc.

[Jenksismyhero]

This is my solution to the problem, though it encompasses far more than health care.

 

First of all, yes, contraception should be widely available, but find some other way than forcing people who have religious objections to provide it. That's an absolutely terrible way to go about it. Planned Parenthood gets hundreds of millions of dollars in government money and tens of millions more in political donations, so if they're going to continue to get that money, make them responsible for providing it.

 

Secondly, nationwide, but especially in poor areas, we need a dramatic increase in education spending. Getting a kid a basic education and high school graduation is the best way to reduce the chances that he'll be a drain on government resources the rest of his life. Aside from teachers, schools need paraprofessionals whose job it is to be out in the community interacting with parents and making sure kids are at school when they're supposed to be. Also aside from teachers, schools need child care facilities that take kids age 3 and up from 6am to 9pm, so that parents can be free to have jobs without worrying about who will be caring for their kids. Yes, this is going to cost a lot of money, but a combination of cutting pork from the budget, modest tax increases, and the expected decrease in the need for other entitlement spending can cover this.

 

Thirdly, let's pass a law that automatically pegs the minimum wage to the cost of living. Having to have Congress argue about it every couple years doesn't help anybody.

 

There's probably more, but this is a start.

 

I'm pretty sure No. 1 already happens. Birth control is either free or relatively cheap. And usually it's readily available.

 

No. 2 I still don't think is going to work. We've tried throwing money into schools over the last several decades and it's not helping. It's not like a brand new school with Harvard educated teachers in the middle of Austin is going to change those kids. I could get behind the day care stuff, that makes sense and wouldn't cost much in the grand scheme.

 

No. 3 - i still don't know what that means. What lifestyle do you think people should have as a minimum?

[Balta1701]

We already have dramatically high education spending.

 

Higher than anyone in the world.

 

A lot of good it's doing.

 

...and what the hell is the "cost of living", anyway?

Just so it's pointed out, we're close to the top but this isn't health care.

 

We're also below the OECD average on spending for teacher salaries, to throw that into the pot as well (I read that as saying a whole lot of that education spending goes to administration, which sounds pretty accurate to me since tests aren't cheap).

[cabiness42]

We already have dramatically high education spending.

 

Higher than anyone in the world.

 

A lot of good it's doing.

 

...and what the hell is the "cost of living", anyway?

 

US education spending is high, but not the highest in the world, and that figure includes the ridiculously expensive private schools.

 

As for cost of living: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_living_index

[Y2HH]

US education spending is high, but not the highest in the world, and that figure includes the ridiculously expensive private schools.

 

As for cost of living: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_living_index

 

That's a theory.

[Balta1701]

I'm pretty sure No. 1 already happens. Birth control is either free or relatively cheap. And usually it's readily available.

I'm sure you'll find this hilarious, but once again, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act thanks you for your support.

 

(In case you haven't paid attention, the requirements that all plans provide no-cost birth control and access to education/support/family planning resources has been the subject of quite a few court cases already. So for a lot of people...it isn't currently available...particularly at low income levels.)

[Y2HH]

I'm sure you'll find this hilarious, but once again, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act thanks you for your support.

 

(In case you haven't paid attention, the requirements that all plans provide no-cost birth control and access to education/support/family planning resources has been the subject of quite a few court cases already. So for a lot of people...it isn't currently available...particularly at low income levels.)

 

...and watch when they STILL don't use it.

[Texsox]

What's a living wage? Please define it. I consider minimum wage a living wage. You can absolutely "live" on 15-20k a year. Easily.

 

So the next question is, what kind of minimal lifestyle should people have. That's where we all clearly disagree.

 

Really? Would you care to write a budget that allows someone to live self sufficiently on $15,000 in America?