OBAMA/TRUMPCARE MEGATHREAD

[Jenksismyhero]

What? No, of course not.You're still coupling income with employment, when a UBI specifically decouples them. Everyone gets a basic income check from the government, enough to ensure a basic or subsistence-level life style. Whatever other employment you have on top of that is your own issue.

 

People would start working because most people want to be and enjoy being productive, active members of society. I could quit my current job, reduce my stress levels and take a less-taxing job earning less money, but I don't because I generally enjoy what I do and the added income. They might not work horrible jobs for s*** pay with asshole bosses and companies that treat them like dirt, but I see that as a 100% positive thing.

 

Where does the money come to fund this? Why not just get rid of taxes?

[StrangeSox]

Where does the money come to fund this? Why not just get rid of taxes?

 

The money would come from taxation, I thought that was obvious.

 

Getting rid of taxes would be quite the boon for the wealthy, but it wouldn't help the poor and middle class all that much. Neither would the global collapse of society.

 

edit: I also don't see how eliminating taxes would do anything to change the balance of power in the labor market, either.

Edited November 21, 2013 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

The money would come from taxation, I thought that was obvious.

 

Getting rid of taxes would be quite the boon for the wealthy, but it wouldn't help the poor and middle class all that much. Neither would the global collapse of society.

 

edit: I also don't see how eliminating taxes would do anything to change the balance of power in the labor market, either.

 

You could tax the wealthy 100% and not get enough revenue to pay for this.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[Iwritecode]

You could tax the wealthy 100% and not get enough revenue to pay for this.

 

15K X 3 billion

[NorthSideSox72]

15K X 3 billion

Where does the 3 billion number come from?

 

[NorthSideSox72]

By the way, 15k times 300M (population of the country) is $4.5T. That is far more than the entire annual national budget. Tax rates would have to skyrocket to far higher rates than we have ever seen to cover it.

 

Far, far better to make the minimum wage more livable, make sure you continue welfare and UE programs, and SDI/disability. And do more for health care, which is underway. Basically most of these things are already done, though minimum wage should be improved and PPACA needs work.

 

[DukeNukeEm]

By the way, 15k times 300M (population of the country) is $4.5T. That is far more than the entire annual national budget. Tax rates would have to skyrocket to far higher rates than we have ever seen to cover it.

 

Far, far better to make the minimum wage more livable, make sure you continue welfare and UE programs, and SDI/disability. And do more for health care, which is underway. Basically most of these things are already done, though minimum wage should be improved and PPACA needs work.

Youre not even counting the absolutely massive bureaucracy requied to administer it.

[StrangeSox]

By the way, 15k times 300M (population of the country) is $4.5T. That is far more than the entire annual national budget. Tax rates would have to skyrocket to far higher rates than we have ever seen to cover it.

 

Far, far better to make the minimum wage more livable, make sure you continue welfare and UE programs, and SDI/disability. And do more for health care, which is underway. Basically most of these things are already done, though minimum wage should be improved and PPACA needs work.

 

Possibly. It's an obviously pie-in-the-sky idealistic position which has zero chance of ever being a political possibility in this country.

 

But I don't necessarily have a problem with skyrocketing taxes. We've got an enormous amount of wealth in this country, but skyrocketing inequality. There's more than enough wealth to guarantee every person a basic income, to eliminate poverty in this country, if we choose to do so.

[StrangeSox]

Youre not even counting the absolutely massive bureaucracy requied to administer it.

A check mailed out to every citizen with no means-testing wouldn't require that much of a bureaucracy. I'd be substantially less cumbersome to combine the various social programs into one.

[DukeNukeEm]

A check mailed out to every citizen with no means-testing wouldn't require that much of a bureaucracy. I'd be substantially less cumbersome to combine the various social programs into one.

These are the same people who cant make a website.

[StrangeSox]

These are the same people who cant make a website.

The people who couldn't make a website were several private contractors.

 

The government currently has multiple programs that mail out checks (or vouchers, or debit cards, etc.) to millions of people. IRS refunds, food stamps, housing funds, contractor payments, payroll, etc. I don't know why you think healthcare.gov is representative of the entirety of the concept of government.

 

edit: the Medicaid (ie government) parts of the PPACA are working pretty well because it's much less of a mess than interfacing with a bunch of private insurers.

Edited November 22, 2013 by StrangeSox

[DukeNukeEm]

So in order to prove me wrong that it wouldnt require a massive bureaucracy you list a bunch of massive bureaucracies. Do do dodododo do do dooodooo.

 

I mean the plan is flawed for a million reasons, but the overarching one to me is if we live in a country of such wealth and resources how can anyone really be so pathetic as to not make a living themselves. And do those people really deserve a $15k reward every year?

[StrangeSox]

I pointed out that those bureaucracies would be consolidated, and that contrary to your insistence, the website for Obama care isn't representative of the entirety of government.

 

I can't believe you actually made that second argument in good faith because it's so silly.

[Reddy]

I pointed out that those bureaucracies would be consolidated, and that contrary to your insistence, the website for Obama care isn't representative of the entirety of government.

 

I can't believe you actually made that second argument in good faith because it's so silly.

This is Duke we're talking about.

[Reddy]

So in order to prove me wrong that it wouldnt require a massive bureaucracy you list a bunch of massive bureaucracies. Do do dodododo do do dooodooo.

 

I mean the plan is flawed for a million reasons, but the overarching one to me is if we live in a country of such wealth and resources how can anyone really be so pathetic as to not make a living themselves. And do those people really deserve a $15k reward every year?

did you watch the video i posted? probably not.

 

The bottom 60% of Americans have 7% of the wealth. The top 1% of Americans have 40% of the wealth.

 

You want to know why people can be so pathetic as not to make a living? That's why.

[StrangeSox]

The bottom 40% have negative net wealth.

[DukeNukeEm]

did you watch the video i posted? probably not.

 

The bottom 60% of Americans have 7% of the wealth. The top 1% of Americans have 40% of the wealth.

 

You want to know why people can be so pathetic as not to make a living? That's why.

Punish success, reward sloth. America, all better now!

 

Seriously, its hard to take you seriously anymore. Now that I know youre just a parasitic drain its not fun, it just kind of makes me ill. Can you leave me alone or something? Like as a favor. I just dont like being reminded you exist.

 

Edit- I'd like remind everyone that I put that very politely as to not offend. Its just a request.

Edited November 22, 2013 by DukeNukeEm

[DukeNukeEm]

I pointed out that those bureaucracies would be consolidated, and that contrary to your insistence, the website for Obama care isn't representative of the entirety of government.

 

I can't believe you actually made that second argument in good faith because it's so silly.

I can see it now, the Big Mother Bureaucracy presiding over its little baby bureaucracies. "Guys, we got letters to mail", and an army of millions to do it.

 

Unless you would actually support getting rid of the other bureaucracies (which you'll say now you agree with) but I know you wouldnt throw a federal worker on his ass if youre life depended on it. Lets not kid ourselves, you dont want to get rid of anything government.

[Reddy]

Punish success, reward sloth. America, all better now!

 

Seriously, its hard to take you seriously anymore. Now that I know youre just a parasitic drain its not fun, it just kind of makes me ill. Can you leave me alone or something? Like as a favor. I just dont like being reminded you exist.

 

Edit- I'd like remind everyone that I put that very politely as to not offend. Its just a request.

 

you truly believe that 60% of this country are just lazy? Really?

 

EDIT: Oh, and I've never taken you seriously so don't worry babydoll

Edited November 22, 2013 by Reddy

[StrangeSox]

I can see it now, the Big Mother Bureaucracy presiding over its little baby bureaucracies. "Guys, we got letters to mail", and an army of millions to do it.

 

Unless you would actually support getting rid of the other bureaucracies (which you'll say now you agree with) but I know you wouldnt throw a federal worker on his ass if youre life depended on it. Lets not kid ourselves, you dont want to get rid of anything government.

For as much as you insult other people, you seem to lack basic reading comprehension capabilities. I have already said, multiple times, that a ubi would combine various existing programs.

[Jake]

Milton Friedman has long advocated a UBI and his implementation alleviates many of the concerns had here while also saving the government money.

 

http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_1_income-tax.html

 

The above link explains it pretty well. The NIT/UBI replaces a good deal of the welfare spending; the main thing you need to keep is healthcare provisions, since they'll spend their entire income on that otherwise.

 

Basically, the government covers the gap between your income and a minimum threshold of income. In the example given in the article, if that number is $10,000, you get $5,000 if you earn nothing. It covers 50% of the gap. So if you start to earn $2,000/year, now you get $4,000 in NIT. If you earn $5,000, you earn $2,500 in NIT. This gives you incentive to earn more (of course, most proponents suggest a much higher income threshold, but the math is easier here). There is no "welfare trap" or "poverty trap" because there is no moment where you suddenly earn too much to benefit from the program. Being progressive is meant to preserve a financial incentive to work at every stage of the game.

 

While there is a great deal of talk about bureaucracy here, libertarians like this for the very reason of bureaucracy -- if you all you're doing is sending out money, the bureaucratic costs are minimal. From an economist standpoint, there is no more efficient benefit than money, as well.

[DukeNukeEm]

you truly believe that 60% of this country are just lazy? Really?

 

EDIT: Oh, and I've never taken you seriously so don't worry babydoll

But here's the thing man..

 

I really am serious.

 

Some poor guy in an awful decaying industrial town who doesnt really go to the doctor is paying like 4 times what he should be so you can live in New York chasing the dream and getting your vocal chords checked on the cheap. Thats not ever going to end, thats a lifetime for him. He's down at the plant and youre trying to be an actor the big city. Forever.

 

Hes got dreams too. Maybe he really wants to restore an old Mustang or he really likes the Lord of the Rings movies and wants to go to New Zealand. It could be anything, the key point is because you living your dream requires a subsidy he cannot live his.

 

You say your appreciate it (you f***ing better) and that youd do likewise to someone else if you had enough money. But you dont, and you cant. Thats what makes everything you say so hollow. I mean its easy for you to say you'd be all magnanimous but when youre living on the backs of someone elses hard work to chase a dream youve already established a strong disconnect from reality.

 

Its wrong. On a lot of levels. And you cant justify it by spitting out your fantasy world hypotheticals because this is actually happening. Its here, you are living your dream and hes stuck wishing. Maybe he should make more, maybe the rich are f***ing people over and maybe your big socialist dreamworld will make it all better. I feel strongly that it wont but I entertain the notion that I could be mistaken.

 

This, the money youre getting and the unbelievable f***ing nerve you have to brag about it, is totally and unequivocally wrong. I am 100% certain there is no ethical framework short of sociopathy that accomodates it. It enrages me, makes me sad, makes me feel physically ill just thinking about it.

 

So seriously, evaluate yourself. My grandparents who worked for Inland and US Steel for 40 years would disown me if I was doing what youre doing. My big liberal parents wouldnt invite me to Thanksgiving. Not that I would ever even think about taking the money anyways, I just couldnt sleep at night knowing what I was doing.

 

[DukeNukeEm]

For as much as you insult other people, you seem to lack basic reading comprehension capabilities. I have already said, multiple times, that a ubi would combine various existing programs.

What happens when the white trash buys a jet ski with the money then cant pay the rent or buy food?

 

Dont go all DukeNukeEm on me now, you want to help this people remember.

[StrangeSox]

That is an interesting non sequitor.

[Texsox]

Punish success, reward sloth. America, all better now!

 

Seriously, its hard to take you seriously anymore. Now that I know youre just a parasitic drain its not fun, it just kind of makes me ill. Can you leave me alone or something? Like as a favor. I just dont like being reminded you exist.

 

Edit- I'd like remind everyone that I put that very politely as to not offend. Its just a request.

 

It's a shame that discussions here drop to this level. There was some intelligent conversation and ideas being presented on both sides. Look at the post you quoted, I don't see an insult. Instead another poster tried to offer independent evidence and facts to support his claims. You then lower the conversation by calling him a parasitic drain. I would suggest that if you can't take someone seriously anymore (your words) that you cease to respond instead of calling people names to make your case. Better would be a counter argument that someone would actually benefit from reading.