White Sox offer arbitration to Konerko, Putz.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Journeyman backup/platoon catcher Yorvit Torrealba gets $6.25M guaranteed over 2 years. Still think not offering arb to AJ was a dumb move, especially since the no draft pick cost will just raise his market price. Now the Sox risk goes up from a potential overpayment on a 1-year deal to a lesser overpayment on a 2-3 year deal.

 

Maybe the SoxTalk sources are right and the Sox really don't want him back, and the no arb offer was meant as a nice gesture that will increase his next contract amount and also give them a good excuse for not bringing him back. If that's the case I'm not happy, and Kenny better have something better up his sleeve than Tyler Flowers.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Amen and amen to everyone sticking up for AJ!

Thank you kind sir.

 

I'll wait and see who we have starting. But I'm guessing we're going to take a step down at this position, but the club will make more money.

I really hope you're wrong. If we're going to take a step back, let's do it in 2012 if we blow it in 2011 and are forced to reload. Let's not do it now. This may be our last shot at a title for the next few years.

 

Some of the comments on the board may make it seem like a dominant starting rotation is simple to put together, but this is the most talented group of starters I've ever seen in my life as a Sox fan. It's not often you get this kind of raw talent and potential on one staff.

[witesoxfan]

Journeyman backup/platoon catcher Yorvit Torrealba gets $6.25M guaranteed over 2 years. Still think not offering arb to AJ was a dumb move, especially since the no draft pick cost will just raise his market price. Now the Sox risk goes up from a potential overpayment on a 1-year deal to a lesser overpayment on a 2-3 year deal.

 

Maybe the SoxTalk sources are right and the Sox really don't want him back, and the no arb offer was meant as a nice gesture that will increase his next contract amount and also give them a good excuse for not bringing him back. If that's the case I'm not happy, and Kenny better have something better up his sleeve than Tyler Flowers.

 

So a player who put up an OPS better than AJ did last year in a worse hitters environment who is generally considered to be a pretty good developer and handler of not only other young catchers but of young pitching staffs too gets less over a 2 year contract than AJ would have in a 1 year contract, and you still think NOT offering arbitration was a mistake? If anything, this pretty much confirms what the Sox and everyone else believed in that teams aren't going to spend out the wazoo to get mediocre catchers. If the Sox want AJ back, they can bring him back at the $7-8 mill over 2 years, and if he doesn't accept it, then they can find someone else. AJ is running out of options already considering the main two spots I figured he'd be interested in were Texas and Florida, and they both filled their vacancies almost immediately.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

So a player who put up an OPS better than AJ did last year...

 

The world does not revolve around OPS and FA contracts aren't given out simply because of a previous year's performance. Torrealba has put up good numbers the last two years, but that's in 605 total PA. AJ's career stands on its own.

 

...in a worse hitters environment...

 

This argument is supposed to apply to power hitters which Torrealba is not. Big parks like PetCo can turn singles into doubles and doubles into triples, especially when visiting teams that are built for smaller parks with less emphasis on defense come to town. It hurts players like Paulie for instance who don't have massive AGon power by taking away homers and turning them into doubles and triples, but that's not Yorvit's game.

 

...who is generally considered to be a pretty good developer and handler of not only other young catchers but of young pitching staffs too...

 

This is what got him that money IMO.

 

...gets less over a 2 year contract than AJ would have in a 1 year contract, and you still think NOT offering arbitration was a mistake?

 

Yes, because Torrealba is a backup/part time catcher and $3M + $3.5M is a lot of money for that kind of player.

 

If anything, this pretty much confirms what the Sox and everyone else believed in that teams aren't going to spend out the wazoo to get mediocre catchers.

 

IMO that is spending up the wazoo on a mediocre catcher - actually, less than mediocre. Buck is a mediocre catcher and he got $3/18M, although he is coming off a nice season.

 

If the Sox want AJ back, they can bring him back at the $7-8 mill over 2 years, and if he doesn't accept it, then they can find someone else.

 

Why the f*** would he accept a tad more than Torrealba and a ton less than Buck? His agent isn't a moron. AJ's career speaks for itself. BTW after AJ's March/April of .169/.229/.200/.429 he hit .286/.311/.462/.773 for the rest of the season, which is right around his career line of .284/.324/.424/.748. AJ had a horrible start that brought his numbers way down, that's it.

 

AJ is running out of options already considering the main two spots I figured he'd be interested in were Texas and Florida, and they both filled their vacancies almost immediately.

 

Maybe the Marlins think Buck will do what he did in Toronto over the course of his contract? If so then Buck is definitely the better player and it's great low cost signing by Florida. And perhaps AJ wanted a starting job, not a part time mentoring job like Texas apparently was looking for.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[macsandz]

"AJ's career speaks for itself. BTW after AJ's March/April of .169/.229/.200/.429 he hit .286/.311/.462/.773 for the rest of the season, which is right around his career line of .284/.324/.424/.748. AJ had a horrible start that brought his numbers way down, that's it."

 

A 35 year old catcher's career rarely speaks for itself in securing a new contract. It's about projecting future production and AJ's isn't looking like it used to.

Edited November 30, 2010 by bucket-of-suck

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

"AJ's career speaks for itself. BTW after AJ's March/April of .169/.229/.200/.429 he hit .286/.311/.462/.773 for the rest of the season, which is right around his career line of .284/.324/.424/.748. AJ had a horrible start that brought his numbers way down, that's it."

 

A 35 year old catcher's career rarely speaks for itself in securing a new contract. It's about projecting future production and AJ's isn't looking like it used to.

This post is a bucket of suck.

 

AJ is 34 next year, not 35. That immediately shows how much thought you've put into your argument.

 

Career performance is ALWAYS the first thing that matters in a contract. The known commodity always matters, especially to contenders. Why the f*** do you think Ben Sheets got all that money from the A's and Harden got all that cash from Texas? Why did Wang get money from the Nats? Why did Nick Johnson get that cash last year from the Yankees? None of those guys were safe bets to do anything, and none of them did anything, but they got that money because of what they can do which is based upon what they have done in the past. AJ has shown no signs of slowing down and at 34 next year he shouldn't be expected to given his track record. Signing him for his age 34 and 35 seasons with an option (possibly vesting) for his age 36 season is not necessarily a bad deal at all. IMO he'll get offered that.

[macsandz]

This post is a bucket of suck.

 

AJ is 34 next year, not 35. That immediately shows how much thought you've put into your argument.

 

Career performance is ALWAYS the first thing that matters in a contract. The known commodity always matters, especially to contenders. Why the f*** do you think Ben Sheets got all that money from the A's and Harden got all that cash from Texas? Why did Wang get money from the Nats? Why did Nick Johnson get that cash last year from the Yankees? None of those guys were safe bets to do anything, and none of them did anything, but they got that money because of what they can do which is based upon what they have done in the past. AJ has shown no signs of slowing down and at 34 next year he shouldn't be expected to given his track record. Signing him for his age 34 and 35 seasons with an option (possibly vesting) for his age 36 season is not necessarily a bad deal at all. IMO he'll get offered that.

 

 

"Signing him for his age 34 and 35 seasons with an option (possibly vesting) for his age 36 season is not necessarily a bad deal at all"

 

So you're allowed to consider him contractually at 35 or even 36, but I reference that age and you kill me. BTW, Heyman just tweeted the Sox would love to have AJ back, but

at a reduced salary.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

"Signing him for his age 34 and 35 seasons with an option (possibly vesting) for his age 36 season is not necessarily a bad deal at all"

 

So you're allowed to consider him contractually at 35 or even 36, but I reference that age and you kill me. BTW, Heyman just tweeted the Sox would love to have AJ back, but

at a reduced salary.

There's a big difference between a 34-year-old catcher on a 1-year deal and a 35-year-old catcher on a 1-year deal, and there's a huge difference between guaranteeing money to a catcher in his age 34-35 seasons and guaranteeing money to a catcher in his age 35-36 seasons. And the difference is even larger than that in a 3-year deal because then you're replacing an age 34 season with an age 37 season. You weren't "referencing" an age either, you were making a false claim that if were true would make AJ less valuable than he actually is.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[macsandz]

There's a big difference between a 34-year-old catcher on a 1-year deal and a 35-year-old catcher on a 1-year deal, and there's a huge difference between guaranteeing money to a catcher in his age 34-35 seasons and guaranteeing money to a catcher in his age 35-36 seasons. And the difference is even larger than that in a 3-year deal because then you're replacing an age 34 season with an age 37 season. You weren't "referencing" an age either, you were making a false claim that if were true would make AJ less valuable than he actually is.

 

If AJ were valuable he'd have a deal already like several other free agent catchers.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

If AJ were valuable he'd have a deal already like several other free agent catchers.

Right. If Werth were valuable he'd have a deal already like Coco Crisp. If Lee were valuable he'd have a deal already like Garland. See how faulty this logic is?

[greg775]

This post is a bucket of suck.

 

AJ is 34 next year, not 35. That immediately shows how much thought you've put into your argument.

 

Career performance is ALWAYS the first thing that matters in a contract. The known commodity always matters, especially to contenders. Why the f*** do you think Ben Sheets got all that money from the A's and Harden got all that cash from Texas? Why did Wang get money from the Nats? Why did Nick Johnson get that cash last year from the Yankees? None of those guys were safe bets to do anything, and none of them did anything, but they got that money because of what they can do which is based upon what they have done in the past. AJ has shown no signs of slowing down and at 34 next year he shouldn't be expected to given his track record. Signing him for his age 34 and 35 seasons with an option (possibly vesting) for his age 36 season is not necessarily a bad deal at all. IMO he'll get offered that.

 

From what I've been reading, I'd like to see AJ back and have him platoon with Olivo.

I'd also like both Konerko and Dunn.

Yes those four guys are all slow and command a lot of money.

Trade Edwin Jackson for a batch of prospects to free up a little bit of dough.

[macsandz]

Right. If Werth were valuable he'd have a deal already like Coco Crisp. If Lee were valuable he'd have a deal already like Garland. See how faulty this logic is?

 

Great examples. Wow, so AJ has a huge payday coming. He'll be happy to hear that.

[witesoxfan]

The world does not revolve around OPS and FA contracts aren't given out simply because of a previous year's performance. Torrealba has put up good numbers the last two years, but that's in 605 total PA. AJ's career stands on its own.

 

I don't understand how you can justify a player's future contract based on what he's done in his career when he's a catcher who is quite clearly coming off a down season.

 

Oh, and if you don't believe that free agent contracts aren't given out simply because of a previous year's performance, I would like to see you justify the John Buck contract, as well as the contract Konerko will sign later and the one Aubrey Huff has already signed. Konerko was relatively mediocre in 2009, and Huff was flat out terrible.

 

Further, if in the future you want to use the argument that Konerko found his fountain of youth at 34, so Pierzynski can too, it needs to be mentioned that Pierzynski is also a catcher who has over 11,000 innings of catching in his career. There are definite signs of breaking down, including the drop in power - it's possible that some of it was due to bad luck, as he hit a homer on only 5.8% of his flyballs, but it's also quite possible that he is not longer hitting the ball with much authority. He had a career high groundball rate last year and a career low line drive rate. Maybe that will revert back to his career norms next year, but I wouldn't have been willing to wager $7-8 million on that, and the White Sox weren't either.

 

This argument is supposed to apply to power hitters which Torrealba is not. Big parks like PetCo can turn singles into doubles and doubles into triples, especially when visiting teams that are built for smaller parks with less emphasis on defense come to town. It hurts players like Paulie for instance who don't have massive AGon power by taking away homers and turning them into doubles and triples, but that's not Yorvit's game.

 

Which explains why the Padres had a higher average on the road this year too, especially considering that team that was comprised of primarily singles hitters (Gonzalez, Ludwick, and Scott Hairston notwithstanding).

 

Yes, because Torrealba is a backup/part time catcher and $3M + $3.5M is a lot of money for that kind of player.

 

Or it's possible that the Rangers think he can be a good everyday catcher for them - the Rangers have done this before. They brought over Mark DeRosa from Atlanta, let him play full time in his second year with the team, and he responded very well for them. Taylor Teagarden is looking like a bust and they thought so highly of Max Ramirez - who was mediocre again this season - that they almost dealt him for an over the hill Mike Lowell. Torrealba has been in the league for 10 years, but he's only going to be 32 next year and he's caught less than half of the innings of AJ Pierzynski, and he's thrown out 30% of potential basestealers in his career, and threw out 37% last year.

 

 

Why the f*** would he accept a tad more than Torrealba and a ton less than Buck? His agent isn't a moron. AJ's career speaks for itself. BTW after AJ's March/April of .169/.229/.200/.429 he hit .286/.311/.462/.773 for the rest of the season, which is right around his career line of .284/.324/.424/.748. AJ had a horrible start that brought his numbers way down, that's it.

 

He would accept that because that is what he is worth. Torrealba is, perhaps, a slightly worse hitter than AJ at this point in their careers (and he might be just as good or better) and I have to imagine he's a better defensive catcher than AJ too.

 

BTW, without AJ's ridiculous .333 average in the final two months of the season, he was hitting .231/.269/.343/.612. Hell, until August 18th, he was at .241/.277/.354/.631. I can cherry pick stats too, and without AJ having

 

 

 

Maybe the Marlins think Buck will do what he did in Toronto over the course of his contract? If so then Buck is definitely the better player and it's great low cost signing by Florida. And perhaps AJ wanted a starting job, not a part time mentoring job like Texas apparently was looking for.

 

I don't know who AJ is going to be mentoring in Texas considering the quality of the catching depth the Rangers have - which is zilch. I'd actually say that's less of an indictment on AJ, but instead more of a thought by the Rangers that Torrealba was the better investment.

 

I don't think there's any argument that the Buck was overpaid, but they Marlins will probably get an above average offensive catcher out of the whole deal, so I doubt they're worried.

 

The point remains - AJ is going to be 34 next season and there aren't going to be many, if any, teams looking to sign him to be the starting catcher. I am most certainly not going to rule out his return, but it'll be closer to $3.5-5 mill per year than it will be $7, and the White Sox have, at the very least, saved $2-3.5 million by not offering him arbitration.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

AJ had a horrible first month. This happens. AJ's horrible first month should be taken the same way PK's career year should be taken. PK shouldn't be signed with the expectation of him replicating that 2010 season and AJ shouldn't be signed with the expectation of him repeating his horrible March/April. AJ finished very strong and played a full season. AJ's durability is not a question. Yorvit Torrealba OTOH is a part time player who had two decent part-time seasons in the National League and here you are attempting to put him on similar footing as AJ. It's ridiculous and I don't even know what else to say about that.

 

The Buck contract is easily justified. He's paid $6M per for his age 30, 31, and 32 seasons. His ceiling he showed off in Toronto (remember he was once a highly touted prospect and the supposed future in KC after the Beltran deal) and if he were to recreate that 2010 season 3 times over in Florida then he'd basically be getting paid half of what he's actually worth, making him a huge bargain. The downside is that he's a good defensive catcher with a rep of being able to handle a young pitching staff, plus he's durable, and if nothing else he's a legitimate power threat. He's probably worth $3-4M alone as a starting C apart from his Toronto season, and that Toronto season made him more expensive. But that season isn't the whole reason he signed that contract either.

 

Konerko's contract will be based on his history of being Paul Konerko. Aubrey Huff had great seasons in 2002-2004 and then did it again in 2008 and 2010. I think that's a bad deal IMO, but it's not like he's never done big things before, and when he wasn't doing great things he was still being mediocre. It's not like he spent his life in the minor leagues and I think you need to check over his numbers again. But yeah, I don't like that signing either.

 

I never made any fountain of youth argument. That's you. I'm saying there's no reason to say that he's automatically going to suck because he turned 34. That's f***ing retarded.

 

Forget that bad luck s***, doesn't work with me,

 

Where are the signs of breaking down? This is more garbage from people who are so obsessed with speculative stats and trends that they can't ever put anything into its proper context. If AJ shows an injury history, then he's an injury risk. Carlton Fisk caught about 70 bazillion baseball games. Other guys broke down early. Take an average of any two players' careers and that has zero bearing on AJ. AJ caught a lot of games last year - 128 to be exact - just like he always has done, and he did it while finishing very strong. Look at his monthly splits. The best months of his season, and they were terrific, were August through the end of the year. Again, he finished very strong.

 

Again, I already explained the numbers drop. Look at the first month of the season. Then look at the rest of his numbers. Omit his March/April and he's right where he always is. There isn't any f***ing mystery here.

 

What I read (albeit from MLBTR) is that they want Torrealba to mentor Teagarden and Ramirez. If they think he can be a starting catcher then that's great, maybe he can. But if they're getting a starting catcher then they're getting him a lot cheaper than a legitimate starting catcher's price. They're paying a high price for a backup/part timer though if that's what they're doing. I don't know why they'd see him as a starter though, unless they're just trying to save their money for pitching figuring they've already got enough offense as it is.

 

Ugh, slow starts are normal. If your main concern re: AJ is durability then you don't look at him when he's fresh in April and shout "SIGNS OF DECLINE!!!!" from the rooftops, you look at how he progresses as the year goes on. He got better as his workload increased, and at the end, when he should have been tired, he had the best months of his season.

 

BS. AJ is 34 and there aren't going to be many if any teams looking at him as a starter? You have no idea what you're talking about. If you're so confident then let's do a sig bet. You say it'll be closer to 3-5M than 7. I say he'll get at least 5 and at least 2 years. If you win, you control my sig. I win and I control yours. Deal?

[Balta1701]

The White Sox are interested in retaining catcher A.J. Pierzynski but didn't want to pay what he might make in arbitration. They see Pierzynski making less than he did a year ago.

Heyman

[NorthSideSox72]

Decisions required by PK14 and Putz by midnight tonight, so we should hear something today.

 

[justBLAZE]

Decisions required by PK14 and Putz by midnight tonight, so we should hear something today.

 

We can expect both players declining, as they both are seeking multi-year deals.

[Chicago White Sox]

Heyman

I'd love A.J. back on a 1 year, $5.5 million deal and that still might be a possibility.

 

The only two teams I could see with interest and the ability to pay that much for A.J. are the Red Sox and Mets. However, both teams have young catchers who hit righties better than lefties, which would make A.J. an expansive and poor platoon partner. Throw in his so called "character issues" (which may be viewed as a negative when it comes to mentoring) and several cheap backup/platoon right-handed catchers available in free agency and both teams may believe they are better off without A.J. If so, the Sox would have a lot of leverage in negotiations with A.J. and would have made a smart choice in not offering arbitration.

 

 

[ScottyDo]

Heyman

That's about exactly what I was hoping for, and why they didn't offer him arbitration. I can't believe people were so outraged about that.

[witesoxfan]

So a player who put up an OPS better than AJ did last year in a worse hitters environment who is generally considered to be a pretty good developer and handler of not only other young catchers but of young pitching staffs too gets less over a 2 year contract than AJ would have in a 1 year contract, and you still think NOT offering arbitration was a mistake? If anything, this pretty much confirms what the Sox and everyone else believed in that teams aren't going to spend out the wazoo to get mediocre catchers. If the Sox want AJ back, they can bring him back at the $7-8 mill over 2 years, and if he doesn't accept it, then they can find someone else. AJ is running out of options already considering the main two spots I figured he'd be interested in were Texas and Florida, and they both filled their vacancies almost immediately.

 

 

The point remains - AJ is going to be 34 next season and there aren't going to be many, if any, teams looking to sign him to be the starting catcher. I am most certainly not going to rule out his return, but it'll be closer to $3.5-5 mill per year than it will be $7, and the White Sox have, at the very least, saved $2-3.5 million by not offering him arbitration.

 

 

BS.

 

 

I don't need a sig bet. All I need is I told you so.

[witesoxfan]

What I read (albeit from MLBTR) is that they want Torrealba to mentor Teagarden and Ramirez. If they think he can be a starting catcher then that's great, maybe he can. But if they're getting a starting catcher then they're getting him a lot cheaper than a legitimate starting catcher's price. They're paying a high price for a backup/part timer though if that's what they're doing. I don't know why they'd see him as a starter though, unless they're just trying to save their money for pitching figuring they've already got enough offense as it is.

 

With regard to this, I counter with this...

The Rangers are close to re-signing Matt Treanor, according to team beat writer T.R. Sullivan.

"I don't know if it will happen in the next day but we're pretty confident Matt is coming back," GM Jon Daniels said. Treanor would back up Yorvit Torrealba, who was inked to a two-year contract Monday. He is a defense-first backstop that hit just .211/.287/.308 this past season.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I don't need a sig bet. All I need is I told you so.

Ha!

 

I said he'd get 2/$10M and he walked away with 2/$8M on a hometown discount. I'm also thrilled about it!

 

You OTOH walked away with nothing, because not only did your nemesis AJ actually return to your favorite team on a 2-year contract and completely ruin your day, but you also walked away from the situation knowing that you tucked - yes, you tucked, Tucky McTuckerson - on what would have been a wonderful opportunity to use my sig against me. You would have been able to embarrass me, in every post I make, beyond any level of embarrassment I could have otherwise brought on myself. I'm sure there are posters on this site who would have relished the opportunity to have free reign over such hallowed domain. What would someone like, say, The Artist Formerly Known As SoxAce do with such privileges? What would he say? What possible pictures could he have added to that space? I mean, it could have been anything at all so long as the mods thought it was okay, and by seeing what they allow me to get away with already, you could have really come up with a gem. But dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind...

 

Tsk, tsk, my little tucking friend. I've won in every way possible, and when you tuck yourself in at night you should remember that. Hopefully next time you will NOT waste such an opportunity!

[dielac]

Someone's delusional

[Jordan4life_2007]

Someone's delusional

 

lol. I wasn't going to say anything. But yeah. Wite clearly won.

[witesoxfan]

Just so we are aware, I've never* stated that I had a problem with AJ coming back. He's not the best option in the world, but he knows how to work with this pitching staff, he's not terrible offensively, and he talks a lot of s***. Quite honestly, he's my favorite kind of player. I get upset when people value him more than he's worth, and those who suggest(ed) that the Sox should have offered him arbitration were quite honestly fools, and not only did the Sox show that, but AJ AGREED to that by accepting a 2-year, $8 million contract when he would have received $7-8 million on a one year contract through arbitration. AJ and his agent both knew what was going on.

 

Beyond that, sig bets are immature. Any signature I would have stuck you with would have been offensive beyond all belief...no humor, no joke, just terrible, and it would have gotten both you and I banned. We don't want that. Further, I take more satisfaction in knowing I was right and having a permanent record of me being right then having someone be forced to use a signature of which they do not approve. I am an American, and if you want to use a Freddy Garcia photo with paint-drawn testicles, then do it. If you want Brent Lillibridge with his body size cut in half and his head size doubled and having to deal with people asking everyday "is he smaller or is his head bigger?" and then you getting to choose your own path each and every time that question gets asked, then so be it. If you want your sig to be ANYTHING, I don't care. I was never down for a sig bet, and never will be. I was only ever down for an "I told you so" bet, and AJ beat me to agreeing with it.

 

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

*not that I am aware. I may have said some terrible things during the season, but I believe the only way I said I never want him back was if he was at arbitration cost. I understand the value of Pierzynski, and $4 mill per year is pretty much perfect.

Edited December 4, 2010 by witesoxfan