Rockies Interested in Floyd?

[macsandz]

He of the .220 .308 .334 .642 line away from Coors, mmmkayyyyy. You're trading for players who are mediocre players while having half their games at Coors, and are really pretty terrible away from that ballpark.

 

Look larger:

I'd also be trading to add power from the left side and substantially improve the outfield defense. Additionally they'd be adding versatility, youth, speed and impact potential.

This deal would also be acquiring controlled talent for the future while unloading current contract money that would free it up to make other impact moves.

[beck72]

Fowler would be a nice pick up. The Rockies had him skip AAA in 2009 and he hit .266 with a .363 OBP in the bigs. 2010 showed a slight regression but he's still only 24. Stewart I'm not quite as sold on. Floyd makes a ton of sense for the Rockies. I guess if the sox found the right pieces besides Fowler, I'd be for trading Gavin.

[Jack Parkman]

I'll just throw it out there, but if we're talking Floyd to the Rockies, how about a Gavin for Fowler, Stewart and Morales trade. Fowler and Stewart have their issues away from home, but lets remember that they play 27 of their 81 away games(33%) at 3 of the best pitchers parks in baseball in Petco, Dodger Stadium and AT&T Park. I really think that this, as well as the fact that Coors is one of the best hitters parks in baseball, skews Rockies players stats so they look like they suck away from Coors. Lets also remember that USCF is also one of the best HR parks in baseball. Theoretically, doubles become HR at USCF. Morales OTOH has not performed well,(actually he's sucked) but has an electric arm from the left side. (Yes, I know it's the old Coop can fix'em line) All 3 of these guys were among the top prospects in baseball at one point, so let's not pretend they're not talented. Maybe we can throw in a couple filler prospects and get a good prospect along with these guys. This would seem like a classic KW trade of going after failed/underperforming top prospects. It would get the Sox younger, and possibly fill holes at RF(with Rios moving there), either 3B or 1B,(Stewart) and a LOOGY with the possibility of being a lights-out lefty out of the pen, if Coop could get Morales to harness his stuff. Furthermore, KW could bargain basement shop on the FA market for a guy that he believes could get him around a .500 record and a 4.00-4.25 ERA, because that is what Gavin gives you over the whole season. While that guy might not be lights out for 2 months, he may be more consistent over the whole season. With the payroll conundrum that the Sox are in, this is the kind of trade that KW has to at least think about.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Elgin Slim

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I like Fowler but if we're going to trade one of Floyd/Danks we should look at a deal with Texas with Holland as a centerpiece (I love that kid) plus Moreland who looks like he may be another solid player, overachiever type, and then another piece or two depending on what it is (i.e. prospect, spare part, etc). I think Holland's ceiling is very high and I think he could be available in the right deal should the Rangers miss out on Lee.

 

I'm also a Borbon fan, but I wouldn't want him as a centerpiece. If a Danks/Floyd + prospect for Holland, Moreland, and Borbon deal could be done I might just do it, considering Borbon would replace Pierre (and be a better player IMO over the long haul) which could allow us to dump that contract if anyone wanted him, plus we'd fill the rotation hole immediately with an already MLB-ready lefty with a high ceiling, and Moreland at worst would be competition or a platoon partner to Viciedo at 1B. Then we'd have more cash to throw around, say at Dunn for DH and (yeah I know I'm dreaming) Werth! for RF.

[balfanman]

I like Fowler but if we're going to trade one of Floyd/Danks we should look at a deal with Texas with Holland as a centerpiece (I love that kid) plus Moreland who looks like he may be another solid player, overachiever type, and then another piece or two depending on what it is (i.e. prospect, spare part, etc). I think Holland's ceiling is very high and I think he could be available in the right deal should the Rangers miss out on Lee.

 

I'm also a Borbon fan, but I wouldn't want him as a centerpiece. If a Danks/Floyd + prospect for Holland, Moreland, and Borbon deal could be done I might just do it, considering Borbon would replace Pierre (and be a better player IMO over the long haul) which could allow us to dump that contract if anyone wanted him, plus we'd fill the rotation hole immediately with an already MLB-ready lefty with a high ceiling, and Moreland at worst would be competition or a platoon partner to Viciedo at 1B. Then we'd have more cash to throw around, say at Dunn for DH and (yeah I know I'm dreaming) Werth! for RF.

 

If Peavy isn't ready to go and you put Sale in the rotation too, that gives you 4 lefties in the rotation. Not so bad against Minnesota, but I'm not so sure that I want that against everyone else.

[iamshack]

I like Fowler but if we're going to trade one of Floyd/Danks we should look at a deal with Texas with Holland as a centerpiece (I love that kid) plus Moreland who looks like he may be another solid player, overachiever type, and then another piece or two depending on what it is (i.e. prospect, spare part, etc). I think Holland's ceiling is very high and I think he could be available in the right deal should the Rangers miss out on Lee.

 

I'm also a Borbon fan, but I wouldn't want him as a centerpiece. If a Danks/Floyd + prospect for Holland, Moreland, and Borbon deal could be done I might just do it, considering Borbon would replace Pierre (and be a better player IMO over the long haul) which could allow us to dump that contract if anyone wanted him, plus we'd fill the rotation hole immediately with an already MLB-ready lefty with a high ceiling, and Moreland at worst would be competition or a platoon partner to Viciedo at 1B. Then we'd have more cash to throw around, say at Dunn for DH and (yeah I know I'm dreaming) Werth! for RF.

I wonder if Jon Daniels would be a bit hesitant to make a trade like that again after the McCarthy/Danks fiasco...

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I really want no part of Ian Stewart at all. I'm sure the part about the Sox liking him is true though since they also loved Josh Fields. If Ian Stewart were here I think the entire board would hate him. He's 26 next year and he's arb-eligible which for him means he's fast approaching nontender status. This is a .239/.317/.454/.770 hitter away from Coors in the National League, and he's not even good in Coors either. NO MORE TEAHENS KENNY!!!!

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I wonder if Jon Daniels would be a bit hesitant to make a trade like that again after the McCarthy/Danks fiasco...

IMO that would be a lot of value, but that's what you need for Danks/Floyd.

 

Trading Smoak for a rental of Lee makes me think Daniels would think about another big trade - and I imagine the only potential deal breaker would be Holland who is just a great looking young pitcher IMO. But they just signed Loux, they just keep pumping money into that farm system, and now they've got an owner that wants to spend on the MLB team too. If there's any time to make a splash it's this offseason following their first ever WS appearance.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

If Peavy isn't ready to go and you put Sale in the rotation too, that gives you 4 lefties in the rotation. Not so bad against Minnesota, but I'm not so sure that I want that against everyone else.

If you trade Floyd and not Danks, with Sale, yeah that is four lefties. I used to really hate that idea but I think it's all about quality. There are teams out there (*cough* Rays *cough*) that could stand there flailing away at LHP for months at a time as long as the players you're running out there are quality, and those would be four very high quality lefties.

[balfanman]

If you trade Floyd and not Danks, with Sale, yeah that is four lefties. I used to really hate that idea but I think it's all about quality. There are teams out there (*cough* Rays *cough*) that could stand there flailing away at LHP for months at a time as long as the players you're running out there are quality, and those would be four very high quality lefties.

 

I do agree that qaulity is much better than quanity. I've always hated the righty/lefty matchups just for the sake of a righty/lefty matchup. If the leftys are all quality that's fine too.

 

We really don't play Tampa all that often though.

[elrockinMT]

Look larger:

I'd also be trading to add power from the left side and substantially improve the outfield defense. Additionally they'd be adding versatility, youth, speed and impact potential.

This deal would also be acquiring controlled talent for the future while unloading current contract money that would free it up to make other impact moves.

 

 

I am not sure you would be doing any of this with a lopsided trade as proposed. What financial benefit are you talking about anyway? Floyd was signed as a bargain and we all hoped Danks would follow

Edited November 26, 2010 by elrockinMT

[elrockinMT]

Stewart's BB/K is horrible. He's averaged 2.5 to 3 K per BB since he was promoted to the Bigs.

 

Even Uribe has a better percentage, and he was known as a free-swinger.

 

 

Now if you talk about a FA signing that would help us let's talk about Uribe.

[elrockinMT]

and also worried about LH and power bats as well

 

 

I really think all this LH and RH power is overrated. If you can hit you can hit

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Now if you talk about a FA signing that would help us let's talk about Uribe.

Sign Uribe to play 2B, then include Beckham in a trade with the Cardinals that includes Colby Rasmus.

[joeynach]

Sign Uribe to play 2B, then include Beckham in a trade with the Cardinals that includes Colby Rasmus.

 

Sign Orlando Hudson to play 2B, he consistently posts a line of about .280/.350/.420 and averages about 60 RBI from the top of the order. Let him play 2B and use Beckham either in a trade for Rasmus or move him back to 3rd. He would cost about $5M, and you can still afford to resign Konerko and/or go after Dunn.

 

Pierre

Hudson

Rios

Konerko/Dunn

Rasmus

CQ

Alexi

Catro/AJ

Morel/Vizquel

 

 

 

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Sign Orlando Hudson to play 2B, he consistently posts a line of about .280/.350/.420 and averages about 60 RBI from the top of the order. Let him play 2B and use Beckham either in a trade for Rasmus or move him back to 3rd. He would cost about $5M, and you can still afford to resign Konerko and/or go after Dunn.

 

Pierre

Hudson

Rios

Konerko/Dunn

Rasmus

CQ

Alexi

Catro/AJ

Morel/Vizquel

Not bad.

[witesoxfan]

#1 - I think too much is being made of their home/road splits. Surely there is going to be SOME exaggeration in their overall numbers because Coors plays much better than the average park (or really, any park in the majors), but players (generally) struggle on the road and hit well at home.

 

2010

Home - .264/.334/.416/.750

Road - .251/.317/.390/.708

 

2009

Home - .267/.340/.430/.770

Road - .258/.326/.407/.733

 

2008

Home - .270/.341/.428/.769

Road - .258/.325/.405/.730

 

(I don't know if 560,199 plate appearances is a big enough sample size for you, but it works for me)

 

Of course there will be instances where a player hits better on the road then at home, especially players on the San Diego Padres, but using a player's road splits to suggest that he's suddenly not a good player is very short-sighted. If that were the case, you guys would be crazy for wanting to give $12 mill a year to Paul Konerko when he put up a relatively mediocre .831 OPS on the road this year and has a career OPS on the road of .791 (compared to .920 at home).

 

I would leave that out of the discussion.

 

#2 - I don't think the original trade idea is nearly as lopsided as some have made it out to be. Gavin Floyd is quite clearly the best player in the deal, but he's proven to be slightly inconsistent and a bit injury prone. He is also only under team control for 3 more years. Mark Teahen has to be viewed as a player with negative value at this point simply because he's owed a decent amount of money and really doesn't have a position on the field. I think Escobar throws the value of the deal off slightly, but he's not suddenly a mammoth prospect because he had a good AFL - he's still a glove first, hoping and praying for a .700 OPS kind of prospect. Perhaps he can catapult this AFL into the development of his offensive game, but I tend to doubt that.

 

Ian Stewart, even though he's arbitration eligible, is still under control for 4 more years, and he's still very talented (to the point where I think you can make comparisons to Carlos Quentin when the Sox acquired him, though that was obviously the exception to the rule and the Sox didn't give up Gavin Floyd to get him). Dexter Fowler is also under control for 4 more years, and he has the potential to be a very good player as well (and it's the one time I will say where having Juan Pierre may be a good thing for this club).

 

When considering the flat out value of this potential deal, I think the Rockies come out ahead: they get 3 years of #2-3 starting pitcher at a very reasonable price, a good bat that can stand at several different spots on the field and mimic the act of playing defense, and an all-glove, no-bat prospect who has the potential to become a great-glove, some-bat prospect (though thinking again, all of Escobar's surplus value comes from the fact that he can play a ridiculous SS and his bat really won't hold up well anywhere else on the diamond; the Rockies have some guy named Tulowitzki at SS under team control through 2014. I think the Rockies would want a different player here), which is like 11 years of solid performance. However, the Sox get a guy in Stewart who they can play at pretty much any corner that they need (and some 2B if Beckham goes down too) and then a high ceiling guy in Fowler who runs really well and still hasn't fully developed as a hitter; those are two pretty damn valuable pieces and they will help complete good lineups in the future. I mean, I don't want to say those guys will completely develop into offensive superstars, but I think it's safe to say that both have All-Star potential and, at the very least, will provide competency in the lineup for the next 4 seasons.

 

The point that I'm not sure has been considered enough in my skimming of the posts was the money exchanged. Stewart and Fowler will make roughly $1.75 mill combined next year, while Gavin Floyd and Mark Teahen make $9.75 mill combined. That frees up $8 mill for the Sox to make a few moves and potentially even retain Konerko, though if they went that route, they have an extra hitter on the major league roster (which I wouldn't mind in the least).

 

#3 I figure I may as well start a new point for this one, since it kind of branches off a bit. The Sox lose one starting pitcher in this, a shortstop prospect who was probably never going to see the light of day with the Sox, and an overpaid version of Geoff Blum. They add two offensive pieces and $8 million in savings. Using any number of creative ideas, the Sox can:

 

-sign Konerko and Dunn, which leaves them with (holds breath) Dunn, Konerko, Beckham, Ramirez, Morel, Stewart, Pierre, Fowler, Rios, Quentin, and Viciedo as players I would classify as, at the worst, competent major league hitters and, at the best, great major league hitters. That also doesn't include Vizquel (because he's a relatively mediocre offensive player and I think last year was a bit of a fluke, but he can atleast handle the bat) and doesn't include the catcher's position (where the Sox can then afford to go relatively cheap or perhaps signing a defensive whiz, because I think they are getting enough offense elsewhere).

-sign Konerko and Dunn, and then trade a bat or two for a piece that Kenny really wants. I have absolutely no idea who that could be, but perhaps it's a prospect or two that Williams is enamored with (hehe) or another starting pitcher that he covets, or anything.

-sign one of Konerko and Dunn and use the rest on filling out a dynamite bullpen. The Sox have 3 competent relievers at this point in time. Freeing up $8 million by trading Floyd probably forces either Sale or Pena into the rotation, or forces them to resign Garcia, so at worst they are down to 2 competent relievers. However, I think they can probably afford to add 2 relievers with $10-12 mill (adding anywhere from $2-4 million to the money currently saved). Perhaps Putz at 2 years, $12 mill ($6 both years) and then say Brian Fuentes at $2-4 million to act as the second lefty out of the pen (because god knows we don't want to go through the Randy experiment again).

 

I barely scratched the surface of the potential that this deal opens up.

 

#4 I'm sure there are a few things I missed, but I think I've dragged on long enough. I love Floyd, but I think this would be an absolutely fantastic deal for the Sox. I think there's quite a bit that can go wrong in this deal, and I don't think Escobar really has a ton of value to the Rockies (especially as an organization that really hasn't traded many prospects), so those kinks would have to be worked out in the deal. I think both teams would want one more piece from each other, and I think Chris Iannetta is a name that makes more sense for the White Sox opposed to Dexter Fowler (even though I like Fowler quite a bit), and I think Tyler Flowers probably has some value to the Rockies but not a ton and this and that and everything else - point being that I think these discussions could most certainly take place at the Winter Meetings.

 

As someone else did mention though, if you trade Floyd, you better be damn sure you can lock up Danks. In fact, they should probably work on that before actually dealing Floyd, because if/when Floyd is dealt, Danks' adds leverage to negotiations and they have a more difficult time signing him to an extension or they flat out won't be able to agree to one, and that would not be good.

[Milkman delivers]

I think we're overlooking the obvious choice here: Todd Helton. He's old and past his prime while making too much money and playing a position we need to fill!

[Steve9347]

I like Ian Stewart a lot, actually, but giving up Gavin for him makes no sense unless he's coming with some other ballers.

[Steve9347]

Sign Orlando Hudson to play 2B, he consistently posts a line of about .280/.350/.420 and averages about 60 RBI from the top of the order. Let him play 2B and use Beckham either in a trade for Rasmus or move him back to 3rd. He would cost about $5M, and you can still afford to resign Konerko and/or go after Dunn.

 

Pierre

Hudson

Rios

Konerko/Dunn

Rasmus

CQ

Alexi

Catro/AJ

Morel/Vizquel

Ha, I like how we just say "trade for Rasmus" like that's going to be an easy thing.

[Buehrlesque]

Ha, I like how we just say "trade for Rasmus" like that's going to be an easy thing.

Starting an offer with Gordon Beckham would certainly get you in the door.

[joeynach]

Ha, I like how we just say "trade for Rasmus" like that's going to be an easy thing.

 

Its a message board on the internet, not an actual negotiation.

[iamshack]

Its a message board on the internet, not an actual negotiation.

Oh, right....so there is no need to present an argument anymore. We'll just all say things like:

 

1. "Trade for Matt Kemp."

2. "Acquire Clayton Kershaw."

3. "Trade for Buster Posey."

 

I mean this is a message board, not a negotiation.

[knightni]

Starting an offer with Gordon Beckham would certainly get you in the door.

Why do you want to do that?

 

Beckham should not be traded unless you get a sure thing in return.

 

Rasmus has potential, but he's not a sure thing.

 

His "K to games played" ratio is pretty eye-opening.

[Balta1701]

Why do you want to do that?

 

Beckham should not be traded unless you get a sure thing in return.

 

Rasmus has potential, but he's not a sure thing.

 

His "K to games played" ratio is pretty eye-opening.

Because there's probably nothing else on our roster that could be traded straight up for Rasmus in a fair deal?