Rockies Interested in Floyd?

[Rowand44]

Why do you want to do that?

 

Beckham should not be traded unless you get a sure thing in return.

 

Rasmus has potential, but he's not a sure thing.

 

His "K to games played" ratio is pretty eye-opening.

Rasmus is essentially the Cardinals version of Beckham except the fact he has a higher ceiling as a hitter. If you can sign a decent 2b(wouldn't be that difficult) then a Beckham for Rasmus swap actually makes a ton of sense to be honest.

[joeynach]

Rasmus is essentially the Cardinals version of Beckham except the fact he has a higher ceiling as a hitter. If you can sign a decent 2b(wouldn't be that difficult) then a Beckham for Rasmus swap actually makes a ton of sense to be honest.

 

Hence my sign Orlando Hudson idea and swap Beckham for Rasmus...ok fine if you have to throw in Morel or De Aza then so be it.

[iamshack]

Rasmus is essentially the Cardinals version of Beckham except the fact he has a higher ceiling as a hitter. If you can sign a decent 2b(wouldn't be that difficult) then a Beckham for Rasmus swap actually makes a ton of sense to be honest.

 

I'm pretty happy with Gordo, to be honest. Certainly he has struggled a bit more than we anticipated, but I would rather have a MI with his capabilities offensively than an OF, even though Rasmus's ceiling from a pure hitting standpoint may be a bit higher.

 

I'd keep Gordo.

Edited November 30, 2010 by iamshack

[fathom]

Hence my sign Orlando Hudson idea and swap Beckham for Rasmus...ok fine if you have to throw in Morel or De Aza then so be it.

 

Hudson is very injury prone, and if you watched him last year, it looked like he was going to blow out a knee every time he fielded the ball. Also, you have to take into account that Rasmus is not a good person, as he's had issues with managers and teammates since he graduated high school. There's quite a few stories out there about how insufferable the Rasmus family is.

Edited November 30, 2010 by fathom

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I'm pretty happy with Gordo, to be honest. Certainly he has struggled a bit more than we anticipated, but I would rather have a MI with his capabilities offensively than an OF, even though Rasmus's ceiling from a pure hitting standpoint may be a bit higher.

 

I'd keep Gordo.

I like Gordon's offensive ceiling over Rasmus' offensive ceiling, but if I thought otherwise I'd much rather have the CF over the 2B. I think in a great offense Gordon can be a true, ideal #3 type hitter and Rasmus is probably more of a #5/#6 guy. I can't see a trade coming together as I couldn't see either side looking at the deal and saying "we're the clear winner here," and I think that's the kind of deal either side has to make in order to trade such a young, talented, and cheap player who is under control for so long. I also don't buy all the talk about a huge rift between Rasmus and LaRussa. I think that's probably way overblown, and if anything, it's probably more LaRussa's fault since he's an assbag on his own.

[southsider2k5]

Hudson is very injury prone, and if you watched him last year, it looked like he was going to blow out a knee every time he fielded the ball. Also, you have to take into account that Rasmus is not a good person, as he's had issues with managers and teammates since he graduated high school. There's quite a few stories out there about how insufferable the Rasmus family is.

 

Eh we put up with Ozzie's family. I doubt they could be worse.

[elrockinMT]

How did the goofy idea of trading Floyd for a back up thirdbaseman get turned into the goofier idea of trading Gordon Becham?

[knightni]

Hudson is f***ing annoying and doesn't know when to shut up. There's a reason why he never gets re-signed by teams.

[macsandz]

#1 - I think too much is being made of their home/road splits. Surely there is going to be SOME exaggeration in their overall numbers because Coors plays much better than the average park (or really, any park in the majors), but players (generally) struggle on the road and hit well at home.

 

2010

Home - .264/.334/.416/.750

Road - .251/.317/.390/.708

 

2009

Home - .267/.340/.430/.770

Road - .258/.326/.407/.733

 

2008

Home - .270/.341/.428/.769

Road - .258/.325/.405/.730

 

(I don't know if 560,199 plate appearances is a big enough sample size for you, but it works for me)

 

Of course there will be instances where a player hits better on the road then at home, especially players on the San Diego Padres, but using a player's road splits to suggest that he's suddenly not a good player is very short-sighted. If that were the case, you guys would be crazy for wanting to give $12 mill a year to Paul Konerko when he put up a relatively mediocre .831 OPS on the road this year and has a career OPS on the road of .791 (compared to .920 at home).

 

I would leave that out of the discussion.

 

#2 - I don't think the original trade idea is nearly as lopsided as some have made it out to be. Gavin Floyd is quite clearly the best player in the deal, but he's proven to be slightly inconsistent and a bit injury prone. He is also only under team control for 3 more years. Mark Teahen has to be viewed as a player with negative value at this point simply because he's owed a decent amount of money and really doesn't have a position on the field. I think Escobar throws the value of the deal off slightly, but he's not suddenly a mammoth prospect because he had a good AFL - he's still a glove first, hoping and praying for a .700 OPS kind of prospect. Perhaps he can catapult this AFL into the development of his offensive game, but I tend to doubt that.

 

Ian Stewart, even though he's arbitration eligible, is still under control for 4 more years, and he's still very talented (to the point where I think you can make comparisons to Carlos Quentin when the Sox acquired him, though that was obviously the exception to the rule and the Sox didn't give up Gavin Floyd to get him). Dexter Fowler is also under control for 4 more years, and he has the potential to be a very good player as well (and it's the one time I will say where having Juan Pierre may be a good thing for this club).

 

When considering the flat out value of this potential deal, I think the Rockies come out ahead: they get 3 years of #2-3 starting pitcher at a very reasonable price, a good bat that can stand at several different spots on the field and mimic the act of playing defense, and an all-glove, no-bat prospect who has the potential to become a great-glove, some-bat prospect (though thinking again, all of Escobar's surplus value comes from the fact that he can play a ridiculous SS and his bat really won't hold up well anywhere else on the diamond; the Rockies have some guy named Tulowitzki at SS under team control through 2014. I think the Rockies would want a different player here), which is like 11 years of solid performance. However, the Sox get a guy in Stewart who they can play at pretty much any corner that they need (and some 2B if Beckham goes down too) and then a high ceiling guy in Fowler who runs really well and still hasn't fully developed as a hitter; those are two pretty damn valuable pieces and they will help complete good lineups in the future. I mean, I don't want to say those guys will completely develop into offensive superstars, but I think it's safe to say that both have All-Star potential and, at the very least, will provide competency in the lineup for the next 4 seasons.

 

The point that I'm not sure has been considered enough in my skimming of the posts was the money exchanged. Stewart and Fowler will make roughly $1.75 mill combined next year, while Gavin Floyd and Mark Teahen make $9.75 mill combined. That frees up $8 mill for the Sox to make a few moves and potentially even retain Konerko, though if they went that route, they have an extra hitter on the major league roster (which I wouldn't mind in the least).

 

#3 I figure I may as well start a new point for this one, since it kind of branches off a bit. The Sox lose one starting pitcher in this, a shortstop prospect who was probably never going to see the light of day with the Sox, and an overpaid version of Geoff Blum. They add two offensive pieces and $8 million in savings. Using any number of creative ideas, the Sox can:

 

-sign Konerko and Dunn, which leaves them with (holds breath) Dunn, Konerko, Beckham, Ramirez, Morel, Stewart, Pierre, Fowler, Rios, Quentin, and Viciedo as players I would classify as, at the worst, competent major league hitters and, at the best, great major league hitters. That also doesn't include Vizquel (because he's a relatively mediocre offensive player and I think last year was a bit of a fluke, but he can atleast handle the bat) and doesn't include the catcher's position (where the Sox can then afford to go relatively cheap or perhaps signing a defensive whiz, because I think they are getting enough offense elsewhere).

-sign Konerko and Dunn, and then trade a bat or two for a piece that Kenny really wants. I have absolutely no idea who that could be, but perhaps it's a prospect or two that Williams is enamored with (hehe) or another starting pitcher that he covets, or anything.

-sign one of Konerko and Dunn and use the rest on filling out a dynamite bullpen. The Sox have 3 competent relievers at this point in time. Freeing up $8 million by trading Floyd probably forces either Sale or Pena into the rotation, or forces them to resign Garcia, so at worst they are down to 2 competent relievers. However, I think they can probably afford to add 2 relievers with $10-12 mill (adding anywhere from $2-4 million to the money currently saved). Perhaps Putz at 2 years, $12 mill ($6 both years) and then say Brian Fuentes at $2-4 million to act as the second lefty out of the pen (because god knows we don't want to go through the Randy experiment again).

 

I barely scratched the surface of the potential that this deal opens up.

 

#4 I'm sure there are a few things I missed, but I think I've dragged on long enough. I love Floyd, but I think this would be an absolutely fantastic deal for the Sox. I think there's quite a bit that can go wrong in this deal, and I don't think Escobar really has a ton of value to the Rockies (especially as an organization that really hasn't traded many prospects), so those kinks would have to be worked out in the deal. I think both teams would want one more piece from each other, and I think Chris Iannetta is a name that makes more sense for the White Sox opposed to Dexter Fowler (even though I like Fowler quite a bit), and I think Tyler Flowers probably has some value to the Rockies but not a ton and this and that and everything else - point being that I think these discussions could most certainly take place at the Winter Meetings.

 

As someone else did mention though, if you trade Floyd, you better be damn sure you can lock up Danks. In fact, they should probably work on that before actually dealing Floyd, because if/when Floyd is dealt, Danks' adds leverage to negotiations and they have a more difficult time signing him to an extension or they flat out won't be able to agree to one, and that would not be good.

 

 

Looks like we aren't the only ones thinking Stewart/Fowler for Floyd. Apparently Kenny is as well:

 

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/rockies-rumors.html

[Dick Allen]

Looks like we aren't the only ones thinking Stewart/Fowler for Floyd. Apparently Kenny is as well:

 

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/rockies-rumors.html

Fowler's OPS is .221 better at Coors for his career. A strikeout machine and a 4th OF for a guy who makes hardly any coin. KW can do better than that, and I don't even like Gavin Floyd.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I actually like Fowler but if Kenny makes that deal he needs to be replaced. Teahen and Pierre last year plus Ian Stewart as a key component of a Floyd deal is just way too much.

 

Gavin Floyd is a very good pitcher during the regular season and he's also the kind of guy that can get hot in the playoffs and outpitch anyone in baseball. You don't trade a guy like that for Ian f***ing Stewart, and Fowler doesn't help anything unless we're f***ing rebuilding. If Kenny makes this deal I'm changing my name to either Kenny Hates His Own Players or Kenny Hates His Job.

[sircaffey]

Fowler's OPS is .221 better at Coors for his career. A strikeout machine and a 4th OF for a guy who makes hardly any coin. KW can do better than that, and I don't even like Gavin Floyd.

Ha, I love how some view other team's 24-25 year old high talent players vs how Gordon is viewed around here. It's absurd really.

[greg775]

Ha, I love how some view other team's 24-25 year old high talent players vs how Gordon is viewed around here. It's absurd really.

 

It's called the unknown. It's human nature. Many prefer the allure of the unknown versus the familiar.

I agree it's nuts.

I wish Kenny valued his own more, sometimes, as well.

I like some of the young guys he's gotten rid of.

Edited November 30, 2010 by greg775

[Eminor3rd]

Fowler's OPS is .221 better at Coors for his career. A strikeout machine and a 4th OF for a guy who makes hardly any coin. KW can do better than that, and I don't even like Gavin Floyd.

 

Agreed. Floyd is worth more than this.

[witesoxfan]

I don't think these trade rumors really hold much ground anymore now that the Rockies resigned De La Rosa. They can simply go into next year with a rotation of Jimenez, De La Rosa, Chacin, Hammel, and Cook. No need to trade 2 young, team controlled players for a starting pitcher at this point in time.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I like Fowler but IMO a spot-patch mostly defensive CF/RF + Floyd is a ton more valuable to us than Fowler + a sport-patch SP. Stewart is a complete waste though.

 

Beckham is also a much better hitting prospect than Fowler so it makes sense that he'd be seen as a lot more valuable.

 

As far as Fowler's numbers away from Coors it's hard to blame the park for that. Looking at his splits the one thing that sticks out waaay more than anything else is the home vs. road K rates. At home he K's at a rate of once every 5.7 PA, while on the road he K's once every 3.9 PA. His BB rate is very close though, and IMO the hitting thing doesn't matter a whole lot because equaling out that K rate would completely turn around the AVG and SLG totals. The added power Coors can supply isn't as huge of a factor either since Fowler isn't really a home run kind of hitter.

 

But that K rate away from home is pretty nasty. I guess you can speculate a lot on it but it's not really good either way. Maybe it means it's something mental, or something to do with traveling/preparation on the road, or but my guess would be that the ball breaks more away from Coors and he isn't a good enough breaking ball hitter to deal with that. Look at Ian Stewart's career splits and it's the same thing, he just can't make contact away from Coors. OTOH look at Brad Hawpe's career splits and the contact rate is about the same, and CarGon's road contact rate is pretty close with a slight dip on the road, which is normal.

 

But either way there's reason for concern with Fowler especially as a centerpiece in a Floyd deal. I'd love him as part of a deal for a lesser player or for some prospects or something, but not a chance in hell I'm trading Floyd or Danks for him. Especially not now when we've got a murderers row of a rotation. I think we should keep 'em all, 1-6, and still consider bringing back Freddy as insurance.

[sircaffey]

Fowler was rated ahead of Gordon in various publications (i.e. BA) before they lost their prospect status in 2009. He's supremely talented.

 

Let's not pick apart a player's splits after less than 2 years in the bigs at age 23 and 24. Kind of silly. Especially when that split you are using improved greatly from his rookie year to his second year (K rate away from home).

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Fowler was rated ahead of Gordon in various publications (i.e. BA) before they lost their prospect status in 2009. He's supremely talented.

 

Let's not pick apart a player's splits after less than 2 years in the bigs at age 23 and 24. Kind of silly. Especially when that split you are using improved greatly from his rookie year to his second year (K rate away from home).

You're right about improving the K rate away last year. Jesus though, those away numbers are still terrible. And who cares about what these various publications may have said? Beckham got very little love until he got here. Now that we all can see him play we can make up our own minds about him.

[Lillian]

How can the Sox even consider trading Floyd for anyone other than a real difference maker?

I don't ask that because I think Gavin is so good, but rather because the pitching staff would be so thin beginning in 2012, without at least both Floyd and Danks.

With both Buerhle and Jackson in their last contract years, and Buerhle eligible for free agency, what would the Sox have left, if they trade Floyd?

Peavy will likely be an expensive question mark for the duration of that contract.

Danks and Sale is not enough of a core, and pitching is simply too expensive to acquire through free agency.

Moreover, the Sox have a very thin farm system, with neither a lot of good pitching prospects, nor many trading chips.

 

Don't they need to hang on to any good young, and locked up, pitchers?

Edited November 30, 2010 by Lillian

[Dick Allen]

Fowler was rated ahead of Gordon in various publications (i.e. BA) before they lost their prospect status in 2009. He's supremely talented.

 

Let's not pick apart a player's splits after less than 2 years in the bigs at age 23 and 24. Kind of silly. Especially when that split you are using improved greatly from his rookie year to his second year (K rate away from home).

Call it silly all you want, but his splits became more pronounced in 2010. His OPS wasn't even .600 in games not played in Coors Field. You don't trade Gavin Floyd for maybes. Jorge De La Rosa will make $11 million more than Floyd the next 3 seasons. Compare them.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Dick Allen

[Big Daddy Kool]

http://twitter.com/TracyRingolsby/status/9456719818129408

 

Silly to talk about Rockies and Gavin Floyd. White Sox would only want Dexter Fowler and Ian Stewart.

[Dick Allen]

http://twitter.com/TracyRingolsby/status/9456719818129408

 

Silly to talk about Rockies and Gavin Floyd. White Sox would only want Dexter Fowler and Ian Stewart.

Obviously he was being sarcastic and thinks those 2 will be stars. Good for him. I wish we could see what kind of offers KW is receiving for Floyd if he is dangling him. He's getting Juan Uribe money the next 3 years. With pitching at a premium, you can't tell me KW couldn't get a more surefire package than Fowler and Stewart.

 

[joeynach]

Also, you have to take into account that Rasmus is not a good person, as he's had issues with managers and teammates since he graduated high school. There's quite a few stories out there about how insufferable the Rasmus family is.

 

Is there a saber metric for this, otherwise I just dont understand.

 

[joeynach]

Hudson is f***ing annoying and doesn't know when to shut up. There's a reason why he never gets re-signed by teams.

 

And Jessica Simpson has an awful voice, but.......

 

Orlando Hudson is going to give u .280/.350/.420 and is a plus defender, thats what matters, thats all that matters when it comes to evaluating him as a player, PERIOD!

[ptatc]

And Jessica Simpson has an awful voice, but.......

 

Orlando Hudson is going to give u .280/.350/.420 and is a plus defender, thats what matters, thats all that matters when it comes to evaluating him as a player, PERIOD!

 

I disagree. A player's demeanor in a club house can make a big difference. They can cause a real division in the clubhouse and as long as you are winning it's fine. However, when the team hits that inevitably losing streak, problems can arise.

These players are together all the time and it can wear on a player mentally and emotionally. Think about your workplace, if the person at the desk next to you is always complaining or is a real jerk, it has an impact on your performance.

 

It doesn't always make a difference if the team is always playing well. But it can make a difference which is why guys like him and Bradley are shipped around even with the talent they have.