Konerko and Putz both decline Arb

[NorthSideSox72]

Also, Putz and Konerko have both declined, per Gonzales in the Trib.

 

[witesoxfan]

6 years? Dye wasn't horrible defensively in 2005, he started to decline (IMO) in 2006, but didn't start becoming super-bad until 2007.

 

It's kind of a ticky tack point, and the bottomline is that the Sox haven't had good defense in RF in a while, and I don't think they're too hellbent on improving defense out there any time soon. Beyond that, I think Quentin's still enough of a threat to be a huge middle of the order threat that it's not worth moving him when he only costs $5 mill.

 

Basically, I don't believe that Carlos Quentin can be any worse, and I don't think the Sox are going to make a change based on his mediocrity in the outfield. I think he'll get atleast one more year, and if he does the same thing next year, then I don't think they will tender him a contract.

[NorthSideSox72]

It's kind of a ticky tack point, and the bottomline is that the Sox haven't had good defense in RF in a while, and I don't think they're too hellbent on improving defense out there any time soon. Beyond that, I think Quentin's still enough of a threat to be a huge middle of the order threat that it's not worth moving him when he only costs $5 mill.

 

Basically, I don't believe that Carlos Quentin can be any worse, and I don't think the Sox are going to make a change based on his mediocrity in the outfield. I think he'll get atleast one more year, and if he does the same thing next year, then I don't think they will tender him a contract.

Since they probably won't have made any other big moves by Thursday, I think you are right that they will give him another 1 year contract and hope he gets in a better mental spot, and maybe improves in RF a bit. Or, if they make a big splash for an OF, they move him to DH. Either way, its probably a good move, since non-tendering him or trading him at probable low value is not a great proposition.

 

[ThunderBolt]

I like being in the position to get picks. It's always good to have the chance to bring in some new kids for KW to trade in two years.

[elrockinMT]

.300 average, 25 homeruns, .300 OBP. Heh.

 

He never takes pitches so .300 is kind of high don't you think? .270 maybe

[Rooftop Shots]

A quote from Putz in the Sun Times

"Putz said while he would do what's best for his family, heading into a winning situation is a priority."

 

Maybe I am reading this wrong, not sure, but could that be why he declined arb? I mean, if he really thought that we had a realistic chance to contend and win, he wouldn't hesitate to sign. What's best for him and his family is location and money, but yet winning is his priotity......................and he declines us. Let's look at it realistically from his standpont.

Starting rotation .....better than average

Bullpen...................Thorton the only one that is "proven"

Lineup.........as it stands..........cannot hold a candle with any real powerhouse contender that has some serious pitching.

Pierre......fine for getting on base and steals

Beckham.............................question mark

Quentin .............................question mark

Catcher.(V Mart gone, not much else out there)............question mark

Morel/Teahan platoon...............question marks

Viciedo.................question mark (nice power, but will swing at anything that's in between both on deck circles.

Alexei reliable shortstop, but like viciedo, will swing at anything within 7 yards of home plate

 

Realistically......we have only a few reliables in the line up. Rios, Pierre. and then add a shaky bullpen to that.

Unless we get lucky and Quentin and Beckham get their heads out their rear ends this year, KW pulls some rabbits out of his hat and gets us a proven catcher/hitter, left handed bat with power and good on base percentage, and Morel, Viciedo, Teahan have breakout years, really.................what chance do we have to really contend? We do not even come close to having a lineup that has a 1 through 9 (WOW) type threat

 

As far as left handed bat, sure Dunn has power, but he's also a base clogger upper because he can't run, and he strikes out 8000 times per year.

 

If I was Putz, and PK....................I would look at all of this and do the same as they did. I want to play for a winner NOW.

Our lineup and bullpen have too many holes, and question marks. There is NO CONFIDENCE or assurance that we will be a PROVEN post season contending team next year. Add the fact that our farm is weak as well doesn't help much at all.

 

I truely belive that a major shakeup is needed, and get some proven players (NOT PAST THEIR PRIME) with no question marks has to be added if we are going to make the players, and fans alike, to REALLY believe that we have a legitimate shot!

If we had Detroits 50 mil to spend.........great. But we don't! And with them getting better with money to spend, and Minny getting Nathan. Morneau back along with their lineup that they already have, as we stand with our payroll where it's at, how can anyone see us being any higher than 3rd place? Could it be why VMart took Detroit instead of us? They have an upswing for winning, and money to spend .............................we don't!

 

(And to the equation.................no more of these "past their prime....maybe we can imitate Lazarus, and bring a dead washed up has been back to life again" additions anymore")

 

KW...........you got your work cut out for you if you are going to make "serious believers" in the league, central division rivals, our fanbase and any players that you would like to sign with us.

 

Agree or Disagree.................there are some pretty valid points to all of this.

If we are to be SERIOUS CONTENDERS, a few things need to be done. Not live in a pipe dream world, some serious trading, and/or some serious spending on REAL Life players needs to be done. If not, then a lot of other players will see us as going no where, and will turn us away along with the likes of PK, Putz, and VMart.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

You are reading way too much into that. Doing what is best for his family would include maximizing his salary. He's not going to do that by accepting arbitration when he made $3 million last year. The absolute best he could do at that point is ask for like $6-7 million in arbitration, but then the Sox could either trade him (if he were to accept arbitration) into a situation he is not comfortable in - for instance, playing in Pittsburgh or Baltimore - or by low-balling him just enough that the arbiter rules that he is worth the Sox value, which could be as low as $3.5-4 million.

 

All he did by declining arbitration is allowing himself free will to choose where he plays while also allowing himself to make more money. Some team may pony up the same contract that Joaquin Benoit got from Detroit, 3 years, $16.5 mill. I think that's a hell of a lot better than 1 year and $4 mill, don't you?

 

The Sox won 88 games last year, and they could easily do the same or better (or worse of course) next year. He's just looking to cash in on a great season.

 

 

And on your Martinez point - the Sox never made an offer to Victor Martinez. I imagine they were planning on doing so at some point in the offseason, but it probably wasn't going to be as much as the Tigers was anyways.

 

There's a lot of offseason left. Putz's comments mean absolutely nothing about his chances of returning to Chicago.

Edited December 1, 2010 by witesoxfan

[Dick Allen]

A quote from Putz in the Sun Times

"Putz said while he would do what's best for his family, heading into a winning situation is a priority."

 

Maybe I am reading this wrong, not sure, but could that be why he declined arb? I mean, if he really thought that we had a realistic chance to contend and win, he wouldn't hesitate to sign. What's best for him and his family is location and money, but yet winning is his priotity......................and he declines us. Let's look at it realistically from his standpont.

Starting rotation .....better than average

Bullpen...................Thorton the only one that is "proven"

Lineup.........as it stands..........cannot hold a candle with any real powerhouse contender that has some serious pitching.

Pierre......fine for getting on base and steals

Beckham.............................question mark

Quentin .............................question mark

Catcher.(V Mart gone, not much else out there)............question mark

Morel/Teahan platoon...............question marks

Viciedo.................question mark (nice power, but will swing at anything that's in between both on deck circles.

Alexei reliable shortstop, but like viciedo, will swing at anything within 7 yards of home plate

 

Realistically......we have only a few reliables in the line up. Rios, Pierre. and then add a shaky bullpen to that.

Unless we get lucky and Quentin and Beckham get their heads out their rear ends this year, KW pulls some rabbits out of his hat and gets us a proven catcher/hitter, left handed bat with power and good on base percentage, and Morel, Viciedo, Teahan have breakout years, really.................what chance do we have to really contend? We do not even come close to having a lineup that has a 1 through 9 (WOW) type threat

 

As far as left handed bat, sure Dunn has power, but he's also a base clogger upper because he can't run, and he strikes out 8000 times per year.

 

If I was Putz, and PK....................I would look at all of this and do the same as they did. I want to play for a winner NOW.

Our lineup and bullpen have too many holes, and question marks. There is NO CONFIDENCE or assurance that we will be a PROVEN post season contending team next year. Add the fact that our farm is weak as well doesn't help much at all.

 

I truely belive that a major shakeup is needed, and get some proven players (NOT PAST THEIR PRIME) with no question marks has to be added if we are going to make the players, and fans alike, to REALLY believe that we have a legitimate shot!

If we had Detroits 50 mil to spend.........great. But we don't! And with them getting better with money to spend, and Minny getting Nathan. Morneau back along with their lineup that they already have, as we stand with our payroll where it's at, how can anyone see us being any higher than 3rd place? Could it be why VMart took Detroit instead of us? They have an upswing for winning, and money to spend .............................we don't!

 

(And to the equation.................no more of these "past their prime....maybe we can imitate Lazarus, and bring a dead washed up has been back to life again" additions anymore")

 

KW...........you got your work cut out for you if you are going to make "serious believers" in the league, central division rivals, our fanbase and any players that you would like to sign with us.

 

Agree or Disagree.................there are some pretty valid points to all of this.

If we are to be SERIOUS CONTENDERS, a few things need to be done. Not live in a pipe dream world, some serious trading, and/or some serious spending on REAL Life players needs to be done. If not, then a lot of other players will see us as going no where, and will turn us away along with the likes of PK, Putz, and VMart.

 

If he accepted arb he would have either received a 1 year contract or would have limited his options for a multi year contract to one team, the White Sox. To maximize his dollars and years, he has to remain on the open market. Obviously interest is high, and he's sitting pretty. I hope he's back, but the Sox generally don't come out in first place if there's a bidding war.

 

If the Sox plan on building their team with guys who are free agents, they are going to have to step up in the cash department. They can say play in Chicago, usually contending, all that stuff, but in the end, the thing that matters most with most of these guys is money.If JR isn't willing to bump up the payroll very much, its going to be tough for KW to put together a roster that people will initially be excited about IMO. BTW, I don't know how Rios is not a question mark but Quentin is. Quentin had a higher OPS in 2010, and Rios' second half was putrid.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Dick Allen

[ThunderBolt]

Call me cynical but I'm not sure that after the debacle of last year (which was masked by 88 wins) I'd categorize the Sox as a winning situation. Not until we get off our asses and start making the kind of moves that put us legitimately in line to be better then the Twins.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Thunderbolt

[witesoxfan]

Call me cynical but I'm not sure that after the debacle of last year (which was masked by 88 wins) I'd categorize the Sox as a winning situation. Not until we get off our asses and start making the kind of moves that put us legitimately in line to be better then the Twins.

 

It's worth mentioning that the Twins bullpen could be quite a bit worse next year as well. They are probably going to end up losing 4 relievers - Guerrier, Crain, Rauch, and Fuentes - which leaves them with Nathan (who will be a year removed from surgery), Matt Capps, and Jose Mijares. It's safe to say that they are going to add a reliever or two, but it's possible that they'll be blowing games in the early part of the season, or perhaps all year.

 

The Sox need to worry about themselves first and foremost though, and they need to make sure that the team on the field is good. If it's not, it won't matter what anybody else in the division is putting out there because surely there will be someone better than the Sox.

[NorthSideSox72]

Call me cynical but I'm not sure that after the debacle of last year (which was masked by 88 wins) I'd categorize the Sox as a winning situation. Not until we get off our asses and start making the kind of moves that put us legitimately in line to be better then the Twins.

LOL, yeah, 88 wins was a debacle.

 

Some of you guys, if you were fans of most other teams, would have commited Hari Kari by now. This stuff cracks me up.

 

[kjshoe04]

LOL, yeah, 88 wins was a debacle.

 

Some of you guys, if you were fans of most other teams, would have commited Hari Kari by now. This stuff cracks me up.

You would think we won 45 games while playing 9 55 year old men every game the way people talk about this team.

[NorthSideSox72]

You would think we won 45 games while playing 9 55 year old men every game the way people talk about this team.

Inevitably, someone will respond to my post saying that 88 wins isn't good enough for them - as if they are somehow tougher and more disappointed than any of the rest of us. That will be followed by someone saying, basically, that because they are more disppointed by 88 wins than they perceive me to be, they are more of a fan than I am.

 

No one was happy with finishing 2nd, but some people feel the need to use hyperbole to express it.

 

[ThunderBolt]

No one was happy with finishing 2nd, but some people feel the need to use hyperbole to express it.

Hyperbole? Please, I don’t see how last year could be seen as anything other than an abject failure. We conceded the division to the Twins in Spring Training. It just took it a while for that to shake out on paper. You don’t go into a season with gaping holes and your fingers crossed. I don’t care how many games we won last year, we willingly came into the season as a flawed team and ignored a very real shot at winning this division after assembling one of the best pitching staffs in the game. We went into the season with our weaknesses on glaring display for the entire world to see, that matters a lot more to be then 88 wins, a lack of a playoff berth, and a yearlong glimpse of the fundamental misunderstanding that our manager has for the game of baseball. The record is meaningless when we have nothing to show for it. I have high expectations for this team year in and out and I’d like to see this organization establish similar goals for itself.

[NorthSideSox72]

Inevitably, someone will respond to my post saying that 88 wins isn't good enough for them - as if they are somehow tougher and more disappointed than any of the rest of us. That will be followed by someone saying, basically, that because they are more disppointed by 88 wins than they perceive me to be, they are more of a fan than I am.

 

No one was happy with finishing 2nd, but some people feel the need to use hyperbole to express it.

 

 

Hyperbole? Please, I don’t see how last year could be seen as anything other than an abject failure. We conceded the division to the Twins in Spring Training. It just took it a while for that to shake out on paper. You don’t go into a season with gaping holes and your fingers crossed. I don’t care how many games we won last year, we willingly came into the season as a flawed team and ignored a very real shot at winning this division after assembling one of the best pitching staffs in the game. We went into the season with our weaknesses on glaring display for the entire world to see, that matters a lot more to be then 88 wins, a lack of a playoff berth, and a yearlong glimpse of the fundamental misunderstanding that our manager has for the game of baseball. The record is meaningless when we have nothing to show for it. I have high expectations for this team year in and out and I’d like to see this organization establish similar goals for itself.

 

 

Seriously though, you seem to have this weird idea that KW or JR or Rick Hahn or anyone were somehow going into the season being "OK" with these holes. Newsflash - all teams have holes and weak spots. Do you think KW wasn't aware of them? He didn't have $200M to spend, or even $150M. Not sure if you noticed, but the pitching staff - that most of us thought was going to be elite - ended up being no better than OK. That wasn't a gaping hole on display, that was injuries and other unforseen issues that happen every year to every team. Same with Beckham's struggles, AJ's ice cold start, and Jenks' breakdown.

 

The only thing that going into the season was an obvious hole to everyone was DH - and that did indeed turn out to be the disaster that all expected. I'm right with you there - Ozzie was dead wrong, and KW was wrong for listening to Ozzie on it.

 

And yet, despite that obvious hole, the team won 88 games with a much lesser pitching staff result than was anticipated. If the pitching had performed to expecations, this would have been 90-95 win team, among the very few best in baseball.

 

Terms like "debacle" and "abject failure" have not even a remote connection to this team. The 2007 team, yes. 2009, maybe, but still a stretch. 2005, 2006, 2008 and 2010 - not even close.

 

 

 

[greg775]

 

Seriously though, you seem to have this weird idea that KW or JR or Rick Hahn or anyone were somehow going into the season being "OK" with these holes. Newsflash - all teams have holes and weak spots. Do you think KW wasn't aware of them? He didn't have $200M to spend, or even $150M. Not sure if you noticed, but the pitching staff - that most of us thought was going to be elite - ended up being no better than OK. That wasn't a gaping hole on display, that was injuries and other unforseen issues that happen every year to every team. Same with Beckham's struggles, AJ's ice cold start, and Jenks' breakdown.

 

The only thing that going into the season was an obvious hole to everyone was DH - and that did indeed turn out to be the disaster that all expected. I'm right with you there - Ozzie was dead wrong, and KW was wrong for listening to Ozzie on it.

 

And yet, despite that obvious hole, the team won 88 games with a much lesser pitching staff result than was anticipated. If the pitching had performed to expecations, this would have been 90-95 win team, among the very few best in baseball.

 

Terms like "debacle" and "abject failure" have not even a remote connection to this team. The 2007 team, yes. 2009, maybe, but still a stretch. 2005, 2006, 2008 and 2010 - not even close.

 

I would agree.

It is true all teams have holes and some s***ty players/pitchers.

88 wins wasn't bad. It was scary at how well Minnie played in the heat of the summer, though. We needed to get a productive Manny (which he wasn't) a couple weeks earlier than we got him. We also needed a healthy Peavy.

[bigruss]

It wasn't just the record that failed, it's the organization as a whole finding itself in a very bad position this offseason without anything to show the past 2 years. We aren't a very young team, we have young pieces though. But, we have major holes that cant be filled in by our farm system because it's bare and we have so much money tied up in a few deals that it'll be hard to fill all these holes through FA.

 

The Sox are starting to fall into that 2nd tier team that will fall into the cycle of being just good enough to keep some fans at the ballpark, but not enough to sustain a high enough payroll. Put on top of that they won't have fantastic draft slots and won't go overslot than the farm system will continue to struggle to provide everyday players of high caliber, or even trade bait.

 

It's the mediocrity that scares me, and this offseason will tell alot about the future of the Sox.

[NorthSideSox72]

It wasn't just the record that failed, it's the organization as a whole finding itself in a very bad position this offseason without anything to show the past 2 years. We aren't a very young team, we have young pieces though. But, we have major holes that cant be filled in by our farm system because it's bare and we have so much money tied up in a few deals that it'll be hard to fill all these holes through FA.

 

The Sox are starting to fall into that 2nd tier team that will fall into the cycle of being just good enough to keep some fans at the ballpark, but not enough to sustain a high enough payroll. Put on top of that they won't have fantastic draft slots and won't go overslot than the farm system will continue to struggle to provide everyday players of high caliber, or even trade bait.

 

It's the mediocrity that scares me, and this offseason will tell alot about the future of the Sox.

I think you are spot on about the minor league system, and about the money they tied up in a failed Manny acquisition and other contracts that make it difficult to do much.

 

But I am not sure about slipping into mediocrity. This team won 10 more games than the season before - not less. And despite a barren minor league system, they did get guys like Beckham and Sale to punch all the way through to the majors quickly.

 

You are right about this offseason, because its a particularly tough one. Sure, if the same team was assembled but with a real bat at DH/RF, and a new closer was added, the team would look very good - but as you note, the money makes that difficult or impossible. So making a good run at it in 2011 will either require Jerryand company to take a risk with more money, and/or KW will have to pull a few rabbits out of his hat.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I guess I'll have to agree with you both NSS72 and TBolt. I'm sure the Thome situation sticks in the craw the most where we could have had him for so cheap and then we spend the money later like close to $10M on Jackson and Ramirez while giving up a pretty good pitcher we had under control for a while. That's the "debacle" part and the constraints supposedly now on the payroll.

[Dick Allen]

I guess I'll have to agree with you both NSS72 and TBolt. I'm sure the Thome situation sticks in the craw the most where we could have had him for so cheap and then we spend the money later like close to $10M on Jackson and Ramirez while giving up a pretty good pitcher we had under control for a while. That's the "debacle" part and the constraints supposedly now on the payroll.

I really don't think anyone will be complaining about Jackson's contract once the 2011 season begins. Manny, OTOH, was a collossal waste of money. The chances of Manny actually helping win a division last September was about as slim as the chances SS2k5 agreeing with every one of my posts.

[fathom]

It wasn't just the record that failed, it's the organization as a whole finding itself in a very bad position this offseason without anything to show the past 2 years. We aren't a very young team, we have young pieces though. But, we have major holes that cant be filled in by our farm system because it's bare and we have so much money tied up in a few deals that it'll be hard to fill all these holes through FA.

 

The most concerning part of last season was our inability to beat AL teams. Not sure what final record was, but we were average at best vs AL teams.

[Balta1701]

The most concerning part of last season was our inability to beat AL teams. Not sure what final record was, but we were average at best vs AL teams.

73-71 against the AL.

[LittleHurt05]

73-71 against the AL.

 

The AL Champion Texas Rangers were 76-68 against the AL, 3 games better.

[Balta1701]

The AL Champion Texas Rangers were 76-68 against the AL, 3 games better.

(presumably not counting the postseason)

[LittleHurt05]

(presumably not counting the postseason)

 

If we aren't counting the White Sox postseason games, then we won't count the Rangers games.

 

The interleague success they had didn't carry over well in the WS.