Konerko and Putz both decline Arb

[witesoxfan]

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?s=...t&p=2272564

 

Main reason I posted this is because the only team that the White Sox can't beat at this point in time is the MF'ing Minnesota Twins, so it has nothing to do with AL or NL. The White Sox were 5-13 against Minnesota, which means that against the rest of the AL, they were 68-56.

 

I'm not sure people quite grasp the fact that, if the White Sox had won 3 more games against the Twins last year that, if you believe in predetermined destiny, they tie for the division win and, if you don't, that it puts a hell of a lot more pressure on the Twins (or, depending on when you beat them - like right out of the gates at the ASB when they had a chance to win 3 of 4) it could potentially put them in a position where they sell off a few parts and hand the season to the White Sox.

 

They have to beat the Twins. If they don't beat the Twins this year, then Ozzie needs to go, and perhaps Williams too. And perhaps at that point in time, they just need to blow the f***er up.

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Hyperbole? Please, I don’t see how last year could be seen as anything other than an abject failure. We conceded the division to the Twins in Spring Training. It just took it a while for that to shake out on paper. You don’t go into a season with gaping holes and your fingers crossed. I don’t care how many games we won last year, we willingly came into the season as a flawed team and ignored a very real shot at winning this division after assembling one of the best pitching staffs in the game. We went into the season with our weaknesses on glaring display for the entire world to see, that matters a lot more to be then 88 wins, a lack of a playoff berth, and a yearlong glimpse of the fundamental misunderstanding that our manager has for the game of baseball. The record is meaningless when we have nothing to show for it. I have high expectations for this team year in and out and I’d like to see this organization establish similar goals for itself.

 

Well said. I want to eat a rat poison omlette whenever I hear "we still won 88 games." The team collectively soiled their pants and lost 12 of 14 games from September 6 to like September 21 and were outta the race LONG before that last week when they decided to get hot. This was about a .500 team in reality.

[Leonard Zelig]

Well said. I want to eat a rat poison omlette whenever I hear "we still won 88 games." The team collectively soiled their pants and lost 12 of 14 games from September 6 to like September 21 and were outta the race LONG before that last week when they decided to get hot. This was about a .500 team in reality.

You should go get yourself a dictionary.

[NorthSideSox72]

Well said. I want to eat a rat poison omlette whenever I hear "we still won 88 games." The team collectively soiled their pants and lost 12 of 14 games from September 6 to like September 21 and were outta the race LONG before that last week when they decided to get hot. This was about a .500 team in reality.

Then the Twins were an 87 win team in reality, so I guess the Sox won the division! Yay! I mean, since we are randomly deciding to remove 7 wins from a team, right?

 

Seriously, there's being disappointed, and then there's being absurd.

 

Do you really not see the difference between this: "I'm content with the season, we still won 88 games" (which is your straw man), and this: "we still won 88 games despite disappointments, holes and injuries, so we don't need to retool the whole team"?

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Then the Twins were an 87 win team in reality, so I guess the Sox won the division! Yay! I mean, since we are randomly deciding to remove 7 wins from a team, right?

 

Seriously, there's being disappointed, and then there's being absurd.

 

Do you really not see the difference between this: "I'm content with the season, we still won 88 games" (which is your straw man), and this: "we still won 88 games despite disappointments, holes and injuries, so we don't need to retool the whole team"?

 

Who cares if they won a bunch of games once they were well out of the race to make their win total look decent? This was a team that underperformed most of the season when it mattered (save the insane 25-5 run). We won 90 games in 2006 with the entire pitching staff falling apart. Have we won 90 games since? The fact we won 88 games means absolutely nothing going forward.

[Balta1701]

Who cares if they won a bunch of games once they were well out of the race to make their win total look decent? This was a team that underperformed most of the season when it mattered (save the insane 25-5 run). We won 90 games in 2006 with the entire pitching staff falling apart. Have we won 90 games since? The fact we won 88 games means absolutely nothing going forward.

So if that end of the season run had started 2 games earlier, you'd think this was a great season?

[Dick Allen]

73-71 against the AL.

And considering the Sox get to play KC, and Cleveland and even Detroit 18 times every year, 73-71 looks even worse.

 

 

 

There is absolutely no reason the White Sox shouldn't be dominating their division like the Yankees and Boston and the Angels and Philadelphia do almost every year. There's going to be times you don't make the playoffs, but the Sox should make the playoffs at least as much as the Twins have. They have a big advantage over 3 of the teams in their division and only one started spending any money. Just being average, and 2 playoff appearances in 10 seasons with KW as GM is slightly below average considering there is a wild card, should be unacceptable. We shouldn't celebrate 88 win 2nd place finishes. We shouldn't celebrate 90 win 3rd place finishes. We shouldn't call drafts that produce guys that make it to Chicago but don't contribute to winning successful.I think KW would agree.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Dick Allen

[Real]

And considering the Sox get to play KC, and Cleveland and even Detroit 18 times every year, 73-71 looks even worse.

 

 

 

There is absolutely no reason the White Sox shouldn't be dominating their division like the Yankees and Boston and the Angels and Philadelphia do almost every year. There's going to be times you don't make the playoffs, but the Sox should make the playoffs at least as much as the Twins have. They have a big advantage over 3 of the teams in their division and only one started spending any money. Just being average, and 2 playoff appearances in 10 seasons with KW as GM is slightly below average considering there is a wild card, should be unacceptable. We shouldn't celebrate 88 win 2nd place finishes. We shouldn't celebrate 90 win 3rd place finishes. We shouldn't call drafts that produce guys that make it to Chicago but don't contribute to winning successful.I think KW would agree.

 

I don't agree with a lot of your posts but this one is spot on IMO

[iamshack]

And considering the Sox get to play KC, and Cleveland and even Detroit 18 times every year, 73-71 looks even worse.

 

 

 

There is absolutely no reason the White Sox shouldn't be dominating their division like the Yankees and Boston and the Angels and Philadelphia do almost every year. There's going to be times you don't make the playoffs, but the Sox should make the playoffs at least as much as the Twins have. They have a big advantage over 3 of the teams in their division and only one started spending any money. Just being average, and 2 playoff appearances in 10 seasons with KW as GM is slightly below average considering there is a wild card, should be unacceptable. We shouldn't celebrate 88 win 2nd place finishes. We shouldn't celebrate 90 win 3rd place finishes. We shouldn't call drafts that produce guys that make it to Chicago but don't contribute to winning successful.I think KW would agree.

I don't think anyone is celebrating anything. I don't think anyone in our FO is satisfied or pleased with our results since the World Series win. We've failed to play up to expectations on several occasions, there is no denying that. I think the issue is more a question of "why" than anything else. If it wasn't so damn mystifying I think there might be more repurcussions, honestly. But I think it's such a freaking mystery to all that it's just hard to place blame on anyone other than perhaps those in charge of player development.

[JorgeFabregas]

He never takes pitches so .300 is kind of high don't you think? .270 maybe

Well, the question was best-case scenario. I guess the best case would be that his BABIP would be unsustainably high for a full season. His inability to take a walk severely limits his value.

[ScottyDo]

Who cares if they won a bunch of games once they were well out of the race to make their win total look decent? This was a team that underperformed most of the season when it mattered (save the insane 25-5 run). We won 90 games in 2006 with the entire pitching staff falling apart. Have we won 90 games since? The fact we won 88 games means absolutely nothing going forward.

I don't understand what you think win totals mean to people. To me, "we won 88 games" means that we had the talent to win 88 games. That's not a stretch. You can take that win total and estimate how far off you are from legitimate contention. You then take that information and logically conclude that you should not blow the team up. That's what 88 wins means going forward.

 

You seriously give no one but the most bitter fans any credit. Just because a good handful of us think we're not far off, you assume we're Pirates fans who would crap our pants over a 2nd place finish? Of course nobody's satisfied with 88 wins and a playoff miss. Some of us just think we should evaluate our aggregate talent based on wins. And in that case, we're nearly talented enough to do something.

 

Randomly taking those wins away towards the end of the season is odd because we also lost a few meaningless games after that last Twins series knocked us out. Unless you're trying to quantify our team's "guts" or something equally ephemeral, those losses are just as meaningless as the wins you're harping on. I get that you're unhappy with the season, but there's no need to undercut our evaluation of the team when it's based on real results.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I don't understand what you think win totals mean to people. To me, "we won 88 games" means that we had the talent to win 88 games. That's not a stretch. You can take that win total and estimate how far off you are from legitimate contention. You then take that information and logically conclude that you should not blow the team up. That's what 88 wins means going forward.

 

Um, no. You can choose to either look at 88 wins in a vacuum or look a little deeper. I don't give a s*** that we went 8-1 the last week and a half to pad our overall win total. Teams that are out of it or that have already clinched mid-to-late September simply don't give a f*** and are either resting regulars or playing minor leaguers. How many stars got shut down with two weeks to go because of mysterious injuries? The Rays wouldn't even play Longoria when it was clear he was fine the last 2 weeks or so of the regular season. Playoffs begin? He's back!!! Josh Hamilton was out all of September because the Rangers had such a big lead but of course they claimed he was "hurt". Playoffs begin? He's backkk!!!!! Miguel Cabrera gets shut down with over a week to go. Think that happens if a playoff spot is on the line? Pitchers all over the place were being shut down to "save" them for next year. There's just no real value in finishing the year strong when you were already out of it well beforehand.

 

You seriously give no one but the most bitter fans any credit. Just because a good handful of us think we're not far off, you assume we're Pirates fans who would crap our pants over a 2nd place finish? Of course nobody's satisfied with 88 wins and a playoff miss. Some of us just think we should evaluate our aggregate talent based on wins. And in that case, we're nearly talented enough to do something.

 

You know what, I've heard all this before. To me it's simple: BEAT THE MOTHERf***ING TWINS! I don't want to hear this nearly bulls*** or we're not far off. They've been bendin' us over every year (save '05 when they weren't ever in it) and rammin' us up the ass with extra shiny lube. We're like 3 and 53734267464 in Minnesota the last 3 years. "Oh, well, they're outdoors now. They're not gonna be that good." Fail. Just like Sox fans can get on the Twins for losing to a 200 million dollar juggernaut every year in the playoffs I will do the same damn thing for us losing to the team that Sox fans mock for losing to the Yankees.

 

Randomly taking those wins away towards the end of the season is odd because we also lost a few meaningless games after that last Twins series knocked us out. Unless you're trying to quantify our team's "guts" or something equally ephemeral, those losses are just as meaningless as the wins you're harping on. I get that you're unhappy with the season, but there's no need to undercut our evaluation of the team when it's based on real results.

 

See above.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Jordan4life

[Leonard Zelig]

Um, no. You can choose to either look at 88 wins in a vacuum or look a little deeper. I don't give a s*** that we went 8-1 the last week and a half to pad our overall win total. Teams that are out of it or that have already clinched mid-to-late September simply don't give a f*** and are either resting regulars or playing minor leaguers. How many stars got shut down with two weeks to go because of mysterious injuries? The Rays wouldn't even play Longoria when it was clear he was fine the last 2 weeks or so of the regular season. Playoffs begin? He's back!!! Josh Hamilton was out all of September because the Rangers had such a big lead but of course they claimed he was "hurt". Playoffs begin? He's backkk!!!!! Miguel Cabrera gets shut down with over a week to go. Think that happens if a playoff spot is on the line? Pitchers all over the place were being shut down to "save" them for next year. There's just no real value in finishing the year strong when you were already out of it well beforehand.

 

Yeah, and the Sox were sitting a bunch of their players at that time as well. DeAza, Flowers, Morel, Lillibridge, Viciedo all got tons of playing time that last week, but of course you would never acknowledge that.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Yeah, and the Sox were sitting a bunch of their players at that time as well. DeAza, Flowers, Morel, Lillibridge, Viciedo all got tons of playing time that last week, but of course you would never acknowledge that.

 

You're right. And I should've mentioned that. But you just proved my point. The last 2 weeks or so for teams that have either clinched or aren't sniffing the playoffs mean next to nothing.

[Leonard Zelig]

You're right. And I should've mentioned that. But you just proved my point. The last 2 weeks or so for teams that have either clinched or aren't sniffing the playoffs mean next to nothing.

They may mean meaningless in terms of the standings, but I don't believe they are meaningless for the players on the field based on the teams' reaction to Viciedo's walk-off hit and the fact that several players are auditioning for next season.

[ScottyDo]

Um, no. You can choose to either look at 88 wins in a vacuum or look a little deeper. I don't give a s*** that we went 8-1 the last week and a half to pad our overall win total. Teams that are out of it or that have already clinched mid-to-late September simply don't give a f*** and are either resting regulars or playing minor leaguers. How many stars got shut down with two weeks to go because of mysterious injuries? The Rays wouldn't even play Longoria when it was clear he was fine the last 2 weeks or so of the regular season. Playoffs begin? He's back!!! Josh Hamilton was out all of September because the Rangers had such a big lead but of course they claimed he was "hurt". Playoffs begin? He's backkk!!!!! Miguel Cabrera gets shut down with over a week to go. Think that happens if a playoff spot is on the line? Pitchers all over the place were being shut down to "save" them for next year. There's just no real value in finishing the year strong when you were already out of it well beforehand.

 

 

 

You know what, I've heard all this before. To me it's simple: BEAT THE MOTHERf***ING TWINS! I don't want to hear this nearly bulls*** or we're not far off. They've been bendin' us over every year (save '05 when they weren't ever in it) and rammin' us up the ass with extra shiny lube. We're like 3 and 53734267464 in Minnesota the last 3 years. "Oh, well, they're outdoors now. They're not gonna be that good." Fail. Just like Sox fans can get on the Twins for losing to a 200 million dollar juggernaut every year in the playoffs I will do the same damn thing for us losing to the team that Sox fans mock for losing to the Yankees.

 

 

 

See above.

So you apply those rules to everybody's win totals, huh? Every team plays 10 fewer games to you (but only if they win them)? You're applying random qualifications to one particular win total, and I'm not even sure what you're trying to say with it. Are you saying the team was worse than their record? That their talent level was a ~80 win team? I just don't see how you could justify such a statement simply because some of the wins came late. If they had lost those games, would they count to you? It's just nonsense to apply those rules to the Sox only. The players we had won those games vs. Boston and LAA. They're not slouches, no matter what time of the season. But I guess Boston

 

Yes. The Twins beat our asses into the ground. It was shameful. I'd like to hear your plan that makes us beat the Twins but doesn't involve us building on the team as currently assembled.

.

See, what it sounds like to me is that you're mad at them for sucking vs. the Twins and trying to find ways to make it sound like the team was terrible overall. You called them an "abject failure" I believe. Do you really not believe there's a spectrum of success? Should I be evaluating this team as though they're the Houston Astros, since they both failed to make the playoffs?

 

The 2010 White Sox weren't an abomination. They were a decent team that didn't win when it was most necessary. They can be a good team next year if they play their hand correctly. All you can do is make your team good and hope it competes well against its rivals.