Don't Ask Don't Tell.

[Texsox]

I believe in all this, one point is being missed, the military is unlike any other work place. There are a few jobs similar, but none quite like life and death while deep in some jungle or a desert. Those that seek to oversimplify the situation, for very good reasons I will add, are doing a disservice to those that serve. Support for gays openly serving starts out very strong for those not in the military, then steadily declines the closer you get to having the enemy shooting at you. At least from the stats I heard last week.

 

Not certain what is all should mean, but we seem to be painting this into a blacker and whiter issue than what it really is. And y'all know what a liberal I am, so I would hope no one paints me out to be some homophobe.

[Y2HH]

1. If that's your point, maybe say that, instead of saying my statement is meaningless, when in truth its just a different point of view.

 

2. I personally don't see why one would decide to just throw up their hands and give up on making a positive change, simply because its not complete and total.

 

Ok, fair enough. But I'm not throwing up my hands and giving up on making a positive change because it's not complete and total. I think it's ridiculous that such a thing exists or has to exist at all. But then again, by saying that I'm actually agreeing with you in hoping for people to "get over it and grow up".

 

I just don't see it working, even with a law...they'll be allowed, but they still won't be accepted.

[Texsox]

We just have to look how racism stopped after slavery was outlawed. To know that gays will be fully accepted. Anyone that thinks being allowed = accepted is being unrealistic. I do agree that people should grow up and it shouldn't be an issue, but it will be.

[NorthSideSox72]

Ok, fair enough. But I'm not throwing up my hands and giving up on making a positive change because it's not complete and total. I think it's ridiculous that such a thing exists or has to exist at all. But then again, by saying that I'm actually agreeing with you in hoping for people to "get over it and grow up".

 

I just don't see it working, even with a law...they'll be allowed, but they still won't be accepted.

Again, this was said when units were racially integrated. And see what happened? There was still racism, there were bad things, but as time went on, the bad things slowly abated. Now, the problems from it are much more rare. I see no reason why this won't be the same.

 

[Y2HH]

Again, this was said when units were racially integrated. And see what happened? There was still racism, there were bad things, but as time went on, the bad things slowly abated. Now, the problems from it are much more rare. I see no reason why this won't be the same.

 

Because this isn't a simple skin color thing...this goes deeper than skin color. Not to say that skin color was simple for everyone, either...

 

For example, and I'll risk being called the homophobe here for the sake of my example, and in this example, I'm trying to see this through the eyes of a person who has almost NO exposure to gay people other than what they've heard or see on tv, radio, internet, etc.

 

Sight unseen, if given the choice of going into a battle (guns blazing, bullets flying), with a typical gay man, or a typical hillbilly from Wisconsin, I'm taking the typical hillbilly, and skin color of either be damned.

 

Why?

 

I'm not sure.

 

For all I know the hillbilly is a 45 pound weakling that can't handle pressure, but I'd sooner take my chance with him than a gay man.

 

Why?

 

I think part of this problem comes from the perception that the openly gay crowd has gone out of their way to project over the years. They do NOT represent what I consider the "common gay man", however, they represent a very vocal minority (walk through boys town and see what I mean, for example), and for most people who haven't been around gay people for a lot of their lives, they don't know what these "common gay men" are like...all they see are the flaming ones on TV wearing short pink shirts and going on the show project runway with their over the top "gay" voices. That's their only real exposure to them, so that's how they think they ALL act.

 

I think in a way this is some of what Tex is saying, but I'm taking it a bit further and into more detail.

 

The fact that people actually know what I'm talking about when I talk about having a "gay voice", should say something about their image. What's with that, anyway? :/

 

To me, like Tex said, it's the difference in being allowed and being accepted. Over time, I'm sure it'll get better as what I consider the normal gay people will diffuse the image portrayed upon all gay men will diminish.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Y2HH

[bmags]

Well, since they'll be serving with actual gay people that they've probably already served with in combat, they just now know they are gay, instead of hypothetical crusades to kill hitler with liberace, i think they'll be a bit more reasonable.

 

Gays have already been serving in the military.

[Soxbadger]

Sight unseen, if given the choice of going into a battle (guns blazing, bullets flying), with a typical gay man, or a typical hillbilly from Wisconsin, I'm taking the typical hillbilly, and skin color of either be damned.

 

There is an inherent flaw in this argument, its trying to determine what a "typical" person is.

 

Furthermore, arguably the greatest military mind in the history of the world may have had homosexual experiences (Alexander The Great).

 

In fact if you study Spartan military history (Alexander was not Spartan, this is just another example), they actually wanted the soldiers to have a much deeper bond because they believed that they would be less likely to abandon someone that they had a deep bond with, than just another soldier.

 

The idea that homosexuality makes you less masculine is in my opinion a myth perpetrated by heterosexual males who question their own masculinity/heterosexualness.

 

It is no different than race, religion or any other reason why one group believes that they are superior than another. Most stereotypes are based on some truth, but we should hope our society tries to view people as individuals, not stereotypes.

 

In the end, bisexual troops have been accepted in the military before Christianity was even invented. Ill take my chances with the best trained troops, regardless of sexual preference.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Soxbadger

[Rex Kickass]

I think part of this problem comes from the perception that the openly gay crowd has gone out of their way to project over the years. They do NOT represent what I consider the "common gay man", however, they represent a very vocal minority (walk through boys town and see what I mean, for example), and for most people who haven't been around gay people for a lot of their lives, they don't know what these "common gay men" are like...all they see are the flaming ones on TV wearing short pink shirts and going on the show project runway with their over the top "gay" voices. That's their only real exposure to them, so that's how they think they ALL act.

 

I think part of this problem is that there are a number of people, and you yourself seem to admit to this, that are more than willing to subscribe to the most over the top stereotype of what gay people are and aren't. It's the equivalent of me thinking that all straight people are like the guys and girls from Jersey Shore.

[Y2HH]

I think part of this problem is that there are a number of people, and you yourself seem to admit to this, that are more than willing to subscribe to the most over the top stereotype of what gay people are and aren't. It's the equivalent of me thinking that all straight people are like the guys and girls from Jersey Shore.

 

I do think most people are more than willing to accept the stereotype of what gay people are, what they look like, etc, all based on a vocal minority of them, and that's part of the problem.

 

While most people in the world have been exposed to other straight people, many societies, religions, etc., are against, or at least claim to be against homosexuality. However, what you say does hold water, look at how many foreign people view Americans in a very generalized stereotypical fashion...it's the same exact thing IMO. No, we aren't like Jersey Shore, and no, gays are NOT like they're usually portrayed by the flamboyant crowds on TV, either.

[Y2HH]

There is an inherent flaw in this argument, its trying to determine what a "typical" person is.

 

While it sounds good to call it an inherent flaw, I don't think it is. If it was a flawed argument, this entire ordeal wouldn't be an issue, and we wouldn't be talking about it. The fact that this is an issue (gays in the military), shows that the typical person does think like this, be it from peer pressure or otherwise.

[Balta1701]

The fact that this is an issue (gays in the military), shows that the typical person does think like this, be it from peer pressure or otherwise.

That logic doesn't actually follow...it could be that a very small minority thinks that way but that minority is exceptionally vocal or exceptionally politically powerful.

[StrangeSox]

Poll after poll showed strong support (70%+) among the general public for DADT repeal.

[Y2HH]

That logic doesn't actually follow...it could be that a very small minority thinks that way but that minority is exceptionally vocal or exceptionally politically powerful.

 

I'll give you that.

[Soxbadger]

While it sounds good to call it an inherent flaw, I don't think it is. If it was a flawed argument, this entire ordeal wouldn't be an issue, and we wouldn't be talking about it. The fact that this is an issue (gays in the military), shows that the typical person does think like this, be it from peer pressure or otherwise.

 

It was an ordeal because a small minority cares a hell of a lot compared to a large majority not really caring.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Poll after poll showed strong support (70%+) among the general public for DADT repeal.

 

The general public that doesn't serve and won't have to "deal" with the changes? Does their opinion matter in this debate? I mean, i'm fine with DADT being repealed, but at the same time I think the opinions of military personnel matter a lot more than you or I.

[Rex Kickass]

The general public that doesn't serve and won't have to "deal" with the changes? Does their opinion matter in this debate? I mean, i'm fine with DADT being repealed, but at the same time I think the opinions of military personnel matter a lot more than you or I.

 

The report released earlier this month showed findings pretty consistent with 70% support for repeal. And even if it didn't, it shouldn't matter. If we're going to fight in the name of liberty and equality, our soldiers should be free to not hide who they are and still be equal.

[Balta1701]

The general public that doesn't serve and won't have to "deal" with the changes? Does their opinion matter in this debate? I mean, i'm fine with DADT being repealed, but at the same time I think the opinions of military personnel matter a lot more than you or I.

While it's worth noting that military personnel were polled and also gave that 70% number...

 

If the military believed in 1948 that desegregation would diminish readiness and make a lot of soldiers uncomfortable, would you say that Truman made a mistake by desegregating it?

[StrangeSox]

The general public that doesn't serve and won't have to "deal" with the changes? Does their opinion matter in this debate? I mean, i'm fine with DADT being repealed, but at the same time I think the opinions of military personnel matter a lot more than you or I.

 

Well, the point was addressing what Y2HH was saying, not making an argument that it should be repealed because most people think it should be repealed. IMO opinion really doesn't matter at all as far as civil rights are concerned.

 

But anyway, yeah, that's the cover McCain and Co. were using. The military report found that it wasn't an issue there, either. Most didn't have a problem but assumed a larger percentage of other soldiers would.

[NorthSideSox72]

The general public that doesn't serve and won't have to "deal" with the changes? Does their opinion matter in this debate? I mean, i'm fine with DADT being repealed, but at the same time I think the opinions of military personnel matter a lot more than you or I.

Civil rights issues - and yes that is what I would call this - cannot be and should not be a function of majority rule OR home rule. The federal government, in regards to people in its employ, need to provide equal protections, regardless of what their cohorts may think or feel.

 

[Texsox]

Why don't men and women in the military share the same quarters? Won't every answer to that also apply to two gay men or women, or even more so, a gay couple serving in the same unit? I think these are some of the challenges that the military must prepare for, if that is possible.

[Texsox]

While it's worth noting that military personnel were polled and also gave that 70% number...

 

If the military believed in 1948 that desegregation would diminish readiness and make a lot of soldiers uncomfortable, would you say that Truman made a mistake by desegregating it?

 

The numbers I heard showed higher support the further from combat you were and reduced to less than 50% for units in combat.

[Y2HH]

The numbers I heard showed higher support the further from combat you were and reduced to less than 50% for units in combat.

 

These numbers could be fuzzy depending on who was asked in the military. I'm sure there are many out of the hundreds of thousands of troops that do not care, but if you happen to grab the wrong sample size, the numbers could/would look much differently.

 

Back to my original point, it shouldn't matter...but it does.

[Balta1701]

with the military now a non-discriminatory organization, their re-integration to college campuses should mean even more good things for the military.

The presidents of Harvard and Yale universities have expressed interest in ROTC programs after Congress voted to repeal the military's controversial "don't ask, don't tell" policy that has banned openly gay and lesbian service members.

Link

[bmags]

Why don't men and women in the military share the same quarters? Won't every answer to that also apply to two gay men or women, or even more so, a gay couple serving in the same unit? I think these are some of the challenges that the military must prepare for, if that is possible.

Organizations all over this country deal with relationships in the work place.

[StrangeSox]

Organizations all over this country deal with relationships in the work place.

 

yeah but you don't have gay dudz lookin at ur weiners in normal workplaces!