Winter Meeting Buzz

[Cali]

True. WSI is a horrible board. They have like 15000 Scott Merkins over there. You can't even being to say something negative about the franchise without them threatening to ban you. Makes me appreciate the great work Jason, Heads and all the guys do over here that much more.

 

Which is HILARIOUS since that board used to be the epitome of negativity with crotchety old men writing articles about how the White Sox will NEVER will a World Series (with scientific theories and all!), and waxing poetic about the 60's...

 

WSI is your musty smelling grandpa, and Soxtalk is your hip young friend who can kinda be a douche sometimes, but hey, he's your friend....

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

No doubt about it. I've never had a beef with you or caulfield ( who hates me). I love this board. I can't stay off this motherf***er for some reason.

Same here. LOL, I doubt caulfield hates you. He's a nice guy.

[NorthSideSox72]

His success rate in stealing last year was 79%, and if I'm not mistaken, the threshold for being a good stealer is 80%. So from that perspective, he was fairly effective at the craft of stealing bases last year, especially given that he accomplished the feat more than anyone else in the league. Couple that with the very good defense he featured in left field, and I hardly think we have a "terrible" player on our hands here. Great, no. Good, probably not. Decent, probably. Terrible, no. I would save the terrible label for a guy like Teahen, who for the most part is below average in almost every aspect of the game.

He's not terrible, J4L has stated before his hatred of the player known as Juan Pierre is beyond logic. We all have players like that I think.

 

[Heads22]

Hopefully this can be the most active offseason yet for both the Sox and Soxtalk.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Which is HILARIOUS since that board used to be the epitome of negativity with crotchety old men writing articles about how the White Sox will NEVER will a World Series (with scientific theories and all!), and waxing poetic about the 60's...

 

WSI is your musty smelling grandpa, and Soxtalk is your hip young friend who can kinda be a douche sometimes, but hey, he's your friend....

I love the analogy, but I actually liked a lot of the older posters over there. I still remember West, Daver, Lip, etc. and I thought they were all cool (ducking tomatoes) I just didn't like the wannabe mods and stuff. Mainly they just don't have the quality baseball conversation over there though, especially when it comes to MiLB ball. I think the majority of posters on this site are all pretty in tune with our farm system, but that wasn't the case over there.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

BTW I've been banned a thousand times at both places. I don't really care about that part of it. WSI haters usually hate the ban-happy mods but personally I don't care at all. LOL, I usually take a banning like, "Ok good, now I'm not so damn tempted to post here all the time."

[Lillian]

What are you still doing over there anyway? You have no reason to post anywhere other than SoxTalk.

 

Well, the people on this forum do seem to be more rational, and considerably more polite.

 

Regarding Pierre, I don't think that he is awful, but I did argue that his OBP is not high enough for a guy who doesn't get any Xtra basehits, or even drive the ball. The way I look at it, if he led off every time he came up, his production might be acceptable. The problem is that he's only guaranteed to lead off once per game. When he comes to the plate with guys on base, his ability to steal bases is irrelevant. How many times has he come to the plate with a guy on second and no out, or on third with less than two outs? He can't be counted on to even hit a sacrifice fly, as that's further than he's capable of hitting a baseball.

As he ages, and loses a step, he is losing his ability to get all of those infield hits, that he got when he was younger.

When you combine that with his weak arm, I'm just not impressed with his skill set.

 

But wow, you'd think that I was a complete idiot for even suggesting that the Sox might try to get a better hitter, and defender, to play either RF or CF, so that Carlos could move to left, where he is less of a defensive liability.

 

When I said that Rios could then be a candidate to lead off, by default, as no one else can really steal bases, the posters were just merciless.

"Why do I want to make Rios a lead off hitter". I simply figured that he was the best option to do so, if the rest of the line up consisted of something like:

 

Vizquel

Konerko

Dunn

Quentin

Drew

Ramirez

A. J.

Beckham

 

Not that we could get, or even afford J. D. Drew, but I thought that would be a great lineup, and Rios would fit nicely at the top.

Geez, you can't believe the "hate". A few even suggested that if we were able to acquire someone like Drew, that the Sox should dump Quentin for a couple relievers, and keep Pierre. That is hard for me to comprehend. Pierre is not likely to ever come back to haunt you, but moving Carlos certainly could.

 

What is disturbing is that these guys don't simply disagree, they want to make you out to be an idiot if you disagree with them.

 

Maybe you're right about not posting there anymore. Thanks for being fair minded, and reasonable. It's refreshing.

[RockRaines]

As much as we hate each other's opinions at times, I think most are respected on here. Thats whats refreshing about this site.

[Jack Parkman]

I post at both places, but I can't stand the constant bashing of people who are large proponents of sabermetrics at WSI, and the fact that they don't have good MILB discussion there. They had this one guy who was a huge SABR guy, and he was constantly getting banned for arguing that Pierre, Quentin, and Kotsay sucked and using SABR theories to prove it. The biggest arguments would come about with the use of WAR and UZR in said argument.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Elgin Slim

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Well, the people on this forum do seem to be more rational, and considerably more polite.

 

I think a good reason for that is that here the mods let you get away with more, and that actually encourages a conversation. I used to tell WC all the time (BTW where is he anyway?) that he wasn't a Sox fan when he'd say something negative about MB and I think it pissed him off. I do that s*** all the time. But the good part about the mods looking past that is that it forces both sides to defend their positions. If I logged into WSI and told someone to go suck one for saying something bad about AJ then I'd just get banned right away and the wannabe mods would be all like "yippie! oh goody goody!" and all that, but instead of getting rid of a bad poster, by banning me they'd just lose out on what could have been a good debate. Now you're probably not the type of person to say "go suck one" but you probably would be seen as an Soxoterrorist by pushing the limits through your opinions and then it's just a matter of time before someone says something and then the opportunity for a good debate ends.

 

Regarding Pierre, I don't think that he is awful, but I did argue that his OBP is not high enough for a guy who doesn't get any Xtra basehits, or even drive the ball. The way I look at it, if he led off every time he came up, his production might be acceptable. The problem is that he's only guaranteed to lead off once per game. When he comes to the plate with guys on base, his ability to steal bases is irrelevant. How many times has he come to the plate with a guy on second and no out, or on third with less than two outs? He can't be counted on to even hit a sacrifice fly, as that's further than he's capable of hitting a baseball.

As he ages, and loses a step, he is losing his ability to get all of those infield hits, that he got when he was younger.

When you combine that with his weak arm, I'm just not impressed with his skill set.

 

But wow, you'd think that I was a complete idiot for even suggesting that the Sox might try to get a better hitter, and defender, to play either RF or CF, so that Carlos could move to left, where he is less of a defensive liability.

 

When I said that Rios could then be a candidate to lead off, by default, as no one else can really steal bases, the posters were just merciless.

"Why do I want to make Rios a lead off hitter". I simply figured that he was the best option to do so, if the rest of the line up consisted of something like:

 

Vizquel

Konerko

Dunn

Quentin

Drew

Ramirez

A. J.

Beckham

 

Not that we could get, or even afford J. D. Drew, but I thought that would be a great lineup, and Rios would fit nicely at the top.

Geez, you can't believe the "hate". A few even suggested that if we were able to acquire someone like Drew, that the Sox should dump Quentin for a couple relievers, and keep Pierre. That is hard for me to comprehend. Pierre is not likely to ever come back to haunt you, but moving Carlos certainly could.

 

What is disturbing is that these guys don't simply disagree, they want to make you out to be an idiot if you disagree with them.

 

Maybe you're right about not posting there anymore. Thanks for being fair minded, and reasonable. It's refreshing.

I am totally on board with you about Pierre. My main thing is him in sac situations, it makes me cringe, plus the salary he's making. He's not Teahen-bad but I'd really like an improvement there. It seems like every year we're looking for a lead-off hitter and just once I'd like to have a legitimate one.

 

As for Drew that would really improve the lineup. We'll have to see what the Red Sox do now because there HAS to be someone available. They've just got too many players making money and even though their the Red Sox they still don't want to spend 5X what is necessary to have a good 4th OF. I'd love Ellsbury, but I'd be open to both Drew and Cameron. I'd appreciate better OF defense, and I'd be very open to getting rid of Pierre or making him 4th OF while shifting Carlos to LF and getting a better defender to put in RF.

 

Trust me, you're not an idiot. I've noticed that at SoxTalk these little side conversations pop up all the time. SoxTalk is full of WSI haters. OTOH, when I was at WSI, I never saw that anti-SoxTalk sentiment.

[Balta1701]

We'll have to see what the Red Sox do now because there HAS to be someone available. They've just got too many players making money and even though their the Red Sox they still don't want to spend 5X what is necessary to have a good 4th OF.

I dunno about this...when you look at what their guys did last year, they got barely 210 games played out of Ellsbury, Cameron, and Drew, and most of those were from Drew (who hasn't been the paragon of health in his career). They basically got 1 1/3 of a season from their starting 3 OF's.

 

They're fully justified in holding all 4 guys if they can afford to, based on how they performed last year.

[RockRaines]

Man I wish we had enough in the stable to get Justin Upton.

[Balta1701]

Man I wish we had enough in the stable to get Justin Upton.

Nobody does.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I dunno about this...when you look at what their guys did last year, they got barely 210 games played out of Ellsbury, Cameron, and Drew, and most of those were from Drew (who hasn't been the paragon of health in his career). They basically got 1 1/3 of a season from their starting 3 OF's.

 

They're fully justified in holding all 4 guys if they can afford to, based on how they performed last year.

Yeah, I guess you've got a point. I wonder what they're going to do with Kalish though. They have 5 OF right now.

[balfanman]

Well, the people on this forum do seem to be more rational, and considerably more polite.

 

Regarding Pierre, I don't think that he is awful, but I did argue that his OBP is not high enough for a guy who doesn't get any Xtra basehits, or even drive the ball. The way I look at it, if he led off every time he came up, his production might be acceptable. The problem is that he's only guaranteed to lead off once per game. When he comes to the plate with guys on base, his ability to steal bases is irrelevant. How many times has he come to the plate with a guy on second and no out, or on third with less than two outs? He can't be counted on to even hit a sacrifice fly, as that's further than he's capable of hitting a baseball.

As he ages, and loses a step, he is losing his ability to get all of those infield hits, that he got when he was younger.

When you combine that with his weak arm, I'm just not impressed with his skill set.

 

But wow, you'd think that I was a complete idiot for even suggesting that the Sox might try to get a better hitter, and defender, to play either RF or CF, so that Carlos could move to left, where he is less of a defensive liability.

 

When I said that Rios could then be a candidate to lead off, by default, as no one else can really steal bases, the posters were just merciless.

"Why do I want to make Rios a lead off hitter". I simply figured that he was the best option to do so, if the rest of the line up consisted of something like:

 

Vizquel

Konerko

Dunn

Quentin

Drew

Ramirez

A. J.

Beckham

 

Not that we could get, or even afford J. D. Drew, but I thought that would be a great lineup, and Rios would fit nicely at the top.

Geez, you can't believe the "hate". A few even suggested that if we were able to acquire someone like Drew, that the Sox should dump Quentin for a couple relievers, and keep Pierre. That is hard for me to comprehend. Pierre is not likely to ever come back to haunt you, but moving Carlos certainly could.

 

What is disturbing is that these guys don't simply disagree, they want to make you out to be an idiot if you disagree with them.

 

Maybe you're right about not posting there anymore. Thanks for being fair minded, and reasonable. It's refreshing.

 

I agree that Soxtalk is way more informative about the Sox, even though I do monitor WSI and even post there occaisionally. In fact. I was one of them who reponded to you earlier today Lillian. I generally agree with a lot of what you post, although I'm not so against Jaun Pierre. I think Pierre is an okay leftfielder and we could sure do a lot worse. I would much rather have Pierre in our outfield than Quentin, unless Quentin reverts back to his 2008 form.

 

People need to realize that everyone on here has an opinion and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Most opinions you can't prove wrong one way or the other until way after the fact, but there are those who vehemently insist on proving you wrong, no matter what. Those are the ones who bother me. Hopefully, I can disagree with someone and still respect their opinion.

 

And, of course, this is JMHO on this !

[fathom]

Man I wish we had enough in the stable to get Justin Upton.

 

Please tell me this is a cryptic message.

[LittleHurt05]

I dunno about this...when you look at what their guys did last year, they got barely 210 games played out of Ellsbury, Cameron, and Drew, and most of those were from Drew (who hasn't been the paragon of health in his career). They basically got 1 1/3 of a season from their starting 3 OF's.

 

They're fully justified in holding all 4 guys if they can afford to, based on how they performed last year.

 

Definitely. Fact of the matter is that J.D. Drew is going to get hurt. Add that into the injury troubles Ellsbury had last year, that 4th OF is gonna play at least 60-70 games.

[Eminor3rd]

The argument isn't even about SB's, as I think anyone will tell you they are valuable - in a vacuum. The issue is effectiveness, which comes from rate. A guy who steals 18 in 20 attempts is more valuable than a guy who steals 50 but gets caught 30. The negative value of a CS is more than the positive value of a SB.

 

This is correct ^

 

Elite basetealers are very valuable, sabermetrically. Those that don't successfully steal at least 71% of the time, however, are doing more harm than good. Thus, managers like Ozzie Guillen tend to hurt the team with ill-fated steal attempts at obvious times with bad basestealers.

[RockRaines]

Please tell me this is a cryptic message.

There would be a posting s***storm if I said something like that without concrete evidence.

[Lillian]

People need to realize that everyone on here has an opinion and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Most opinions you can't prove wrong one way or the other until way after the fact, but there are those who vehemently insist on proving you wrong, no matter what. Those are the ones who bother me. Hopefully, I can disagree with someone and still respect their opinion.

 

And, of course, this is JMHO on this !

 

Yes, I agree.

Thank you

[Jordan4life_2007]

Nobody does.

 

That's not true. Nobody wants to give it up.

[ptatc]

OBP has proven to be the best and most effective way to score runs. Give me a guy with Konerko's speed that can get on base at a .390+ clip over JP and his peak .340 clip. Juan Pierre is not a good baseball player. I believed this in 2006 when he was with the Cubs and I mocked all their fans. And I still believe this. I'll, of course, cheer for JP because he plays LF for my favorite team. But I will not mask my true feelings.

 

I know we contune to disagree on this but I need to bring it up. You can't just use OBP and say it's proven to score runs and that's the way to build a team.

 

The Oakland A's of the past decade are proof. They had alot of players that were high OBP but were lacking in defense and speed. This lead to winning enough games to win the division because on "average" against good and poor teams you scored more runs. However, once they got to the playoffs against the best teams and pitchers the high OBP didn't work anymore. The best pitchers don't give up high OBP to even the best OBP players. In this scenario you need to create runs with either speed (and I mean scoring from first on XBH or something like that not just SBs) or homeruns on a single mistake.

 

There is room for role players. OBP is not the only stat that matters. I agree it is important but it is not the only stat that matters for all players.

 

[RockRaines]

That's not true. Nobody wants to give it up.

I'd package Johnny Danks + all of our prospects for Upton in a heartbeat.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I know we contune to disagree on this but I need to bring it up. You can't just use OBP and say it's proven to score runs and that's the way to build a team.

 

The Oakland A's of the past decade are proof. They had alot of players that were high OBP but were lacking in defense and speed. This lead to winning enough games to win the division because on "average" against good and poor teams you scored more runs. However, once they got to the playoffs against the best teams and pitchers the high OBP didn't work anymore. The best pitchers don't give up high OBP to even the best OBP players. In this scenario you need to create runs with either speed (and I mean scoring from first on XBH or something like that not just SBs) or homeruns on a single mistake.

 

There is room for role players. OBP is not the only stat that matters. I agree it is important but it is not the only stat that matters for all players.

 

I never said it was the only stat that matters. But if you visit sites such as baseball prospectus and hardball times, it's been legitimately proven that high OBP, not SB or even SLG%, is the best and most reliable way to scoring runs. I don't care about playoff stats. The playoffs are a short sample size and an extreme crapshoot. I'm talking about the marathon that is the 162-game regular season. And Juan Pierre still sucks.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Jordan4life

[fathom]

I'd package Johnny Danks + all of our prospects for Upton in a heartbeat.

 

Agreed, especially if you can get a mediocre starting pitcher in return for Quentin.