Winter Meeting Buzz

[Jordan4life_2007]

Based on how tightly they held onto Viciedo last trade deadline (when they were desperate enough to even pay Manny tons per game)...there's no way they trade him now for a reliever.

 

That was last year. Different set of circumstances now. Mainly the giant anaconda in the room named Adam Dunn.

[iamshack]

I have no faith whatsoever in this organization to develop position players, let alone a catcher. I don't know what happened to Broxton last year. But from 2006 through 2009 he sported a 2.79 ERA, a 1.12 WHIP, a K/9 of nearly 12 and an ERA+ of 154. Not sure what his contractual status is. But he's one of the few relievers I'd have no problem with dealing Viciedo for.

You're going to rule Flowers out simply based on the parameter that he is in our system?

 

C'mon now.

[chetkincaid]

What is a truly top of the line closer? Rivera and??? There's just not that many to begin with. We all knew from day 1 Viciedo wasn't going to be a 3B. With PK/Dunn in the fold for the next 3-4 years, there's no spot for him. Bullpen obviously needs some warm bodies. I wouldn't trade Viciedo for just any reliever, obviously. But a talent like Broxton, who I believe is only 25, would definitely be worth it.

 

 

I just get the feeling that Viciedo is going to turn out to be like Miguel Cabrera or David Ortiz. You're right though... with Konerko and Dunn there's really no place for him.

 

I just hope he doesn't come back to kill the Sox.

[Princess Dye]

That was last year. Different set of circumstances now. Mainly the giant anaconda in the room named Adam Dunn.

 

Maybe. But Viciedo is the insurance policy at OF/3B/1B, especially long term 1B with Paulie being here 3 years. It just seems like with his current contract, Viciedo is not the type of guy KW would trade off, b/c DV's not a drafted farmhand and instead more like one of KW's crafty acquisitions.

 

Edited December 9, 2010 by Princess Dye

[Princess Dye]

You're going to rule Flowers out simply based on the parameter that he is in our system?

 

C'mon now.

 

 

Yeah I've never gotten this. People would rather blame our org than the player. Especially with a player having such spotty history as Flowers (failed drug test) I think we have to look directly at the player as responsible.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Princess Dye

[iamshack]

I just get the feeling that Viciedo is going to turn out to be like Miguel Cabrera or David Ortiz. You're right though... with Konerko and Dunn there's really no place for him.

 

I just hope he doesn't come back to kill the Sox.

He doesn't have the plate discipline to develop into a hitter like that. Maybe an Adrian Beltre type, but probably not Miguel or Big Papi.

[NorthSideSox72]

Yeah I've never gotten this. People would rather blame our org than the player. Especially with a player having such spotty history as Flowers (failed drug test, unclear MLB position) I think we have to look directly at the player as responsible.

Flowers has improved a lot defensively, he's not unclear on position at this point. He's definitely a catcher, at least for the short term.

 

Its been noted that Flowers got some hitting advice going into 2010 that conflicted with there the org had him going before that, and its screwed him up. I have every reason to believe he's going to hit again in 2011 like he did in 2009. He's not some throw-in, he has a lot of value with that bat and playing catcher even if only somewhat well defensively.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

You're going to rule Flowers out simply based on the parameter that he is in our system?

 

C'mon now.

 

I'm ruling him out based on the fact he hit .220 at AAA as a 24 year-old and is at best mediocre defensively. I don't care that he was voted the best defensive catcher in the Southern league in 2009. I was voted the smartest guy in a sea of idiots once. Not really, but you get the point.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Jordan4life

[Jordan4life_2007]

Maybe. But Viciedo is the insurance policy at OF/3B/1B, especially long term 1B with Paulie being here 3 years. It just seems like with his current contract, Viciedo is not the type of guy KW would trade off, b/c DV's not a drafted farmhand and instead more like one of KW's crafty acquisitions.

 

So he rots in the minors? Makes no sense.

[Princess Dye]

Its been noted that Flowers got some hitting advice going into 2010 that conflicted with there the org had him going before that, and its screwed him up. I have every reason to believe he's going to hit again in 2011 like he did in 2009. He's not some throw-in, he has a lot of value with that bat and playing catcher even if only somewhat well defensively.

 

Encouraging. Yeah, I mean even though I'm willing to deal him, I think he could net substantial relief help as a principle in the deal. As long as we're thinking about moves now and not waiting a year.

[Princess Dye]

So he rots in the minors? Makes no sense.

 

Or he kills in the minors and expands trade options for him. He's young.

 

He also could go to the minors, work on his fielding and replace OV/Morel in 2012. Or mid-2011. Ozzie seemed willing to play him there a bunch.

 

 

 

Another option is he's a major league bench bat spelling people frequently at several positions. PK needs to be preserved.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Princess Dye

[Jordan4life_2007]

Or he kills in the minors and expands trade options for him. He's young.

 

He also could go to the minors, work on his fielding and replace OV/Morel in 2012. Or mid-2011. Ozzie seemed willing to play him there a bunch.

 

Do you really think he can play a legitimate 3B? Look at him. Cmon, now. Don't be naive. A bench bat? My goodness. We're done now.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Jordan4life

[Princess Dye]

Do you really think he can play a legitimate 3B? Look at him. Cmon, now. Don't be naive.

 

Aramis Ramirez is big and made huge midcareer strides defensively. Viciedo has the arm. He's 21.

 

I'm not promising anything but I'm also not seeing minor league time as rotting just b/c i'm impatient.

[Chisoxfn]

Based on how tightly they held onto Viciedo last trade deadline (when they were desperate enough to even pay Manny tons per game)...there's no way they trade him now for a reliever.

Well, unless the Sox feel he can play the field, he has nowhere to get regular at bats at for at least 3 full seasons (when Paulie comes off the books).

[Balta1701]

Aramis Ramirez is big and made huge midcareer strides defensively. Viciedo has the arm. He's 21.

 

I'm not promising anything but I'm also not seeing minor league time as rotting just b/c i'm impatient.

On this one I'll agree...he hasn't had nearly enough time at any position to judge his long-term defense at that position. Especially since he bounced around between 1b and 3b last year and then spent a long time sitting on the MLB-bench.

 

I don't think he's a 3b long term...but if you went out and bought him a 3b fielding coach who's job was to do nothing other than work with Viciedo on his fielding at 3b this year, I bet you could make him a decent option within a year.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Well, unless the Sox feel he can play the field, he has nowhere to get regular at bats at for at least 3 full seasons (when Paulie comes off the books).

 

Which is why they should let him try out a corner OF spot in Charlotte this year. Don't half-ass it and move him all around either. I love his bat and think it justifies giving this a shot.

[Chisoxfn]

You're going to rule Flowers out simply based on the parameter that he is in our system?

 

C'mon now.

Right now I agree with you. I think Flowers value is lower than his potential upside and I have no problem holding onto him. I also don't think a 2 year commitment to AJ should phase things. Injuries happen and its nice knowing we have a young catcher who is cost controlled with power potential down in the minors. He clearly has some offensive flaws to his game but his defense has apparently improved and it sounded as if the Sox had some optimism late in the season and they felt he could make strides with a good off-season.

 

Would I trade him for the right piece, absolutely, but I can still see Flowers eventually emerging as a starter on the White Sox. I can no longer see that from Viciedo which is why I feel it is time to swing him (and potentially other players) for another talented prospect or young pitcher, if possible. Specifically for a team looking for a bat.

[Chisoxfn]

Which is why they should let him try out a corner OF spot in Charlotte this year. Don't half-ass it and move him all around either. I love his bat and think it justifies giving this a shot.

I have no issue with trying that. He has a very strong arm and he very well might be able to play left field. If the Sox keep him they need to pick 3B or LF and I'd probably lean to the easier position (LF) and let him have at it. There is no denying that he has quick hands and a live bat. At his age there is no reason to force a move.

 

However, if the right offer was made I'd have zero problem moving Viciedo and I'd say touche to another team. But that would have to be a guy that was going to be able to help us for another few years and be cost controlled.

[Princess Dye]

Which is why they should let him try out a corner OF spot in Charlotte this year. Don't half-ass it and move him all around either. I love his bat and think it justifies giving this a shot.

 

Yeah, major league LF in 2012 would be a great goal. A wonderfully Juan Pierre-less goal indeed.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Right now I agree with you. I think Flowers value is lower than his potential upside and I have no problem holding onto him. I also don't think a 2 year commitment to AJ should phase things. Injuries happen and its nice knowing we have a young catcher who is cost controlled with power potential down in the minors. He clearly has some offensive flaws to his game but his defense has apparently improved and it sounded as if the Sox had some optimism late in the season and they felt he could make strides with a good off-season.

 

Would I trade him for the right piece, absolutely, but I can still see Flowers eventually emerging as a starter on the White Sox. I can no longer see that from Viciedo which is why I feel it is time to swing him (and potentially other players) for another talented prospect or young pitcher, if possible. Specifically for a team looking for a bat.

 

Why? You're not alone, a lot of people feel that way.

 

But I mean the kid's 21 years old. To me he's done a great job adjusting. His first year I was fine with as he was adjusing to life not in Cuba and last year I thought he made strides as well. He definitely has flaws but he's just shown so much potential. We're not talking about a 5th year minor leaguer we drafted out of college. We're talking about a 21 year old kid who has spend less than two full years living in the United States.

[Balta1701]

Yeah, major league LF in 2012 would be a great goal. A wonderfully Juan Pierre-less goal indeed.

If everyone repeated their 2010 numbers, he'd be a lot more likely to replace Quentin.

[Balta1701]

Why? You're not alone, a lot of people feel that way.

I think I'd say because he belongs at 1b/DH and it will be 3+ years before the Sox have a role for him.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I have no issue with trying that. He has a very strong arm and he very well might be able to play left field. If the Sox keep him they need to pick 3B or LF and I'd probably lean to the easier position (3B) and let him have at it. There is no denying that he has quick hands and a live bat. At his age there is no reason to force a move.

 

However, if the right offer was made I'd have zero problem moving Viciedo and I'd say touche to another team. But that would have to be a guy that was going to be able to help us for another few years and be cost controlled.

 

Exactly. If the right deal came about. Flowers means nothing to me. But that's me. Viciedo as the centerpiece in a deal for Broxton? Sign my ass up. But the Dodgers wouldn't do it at this point.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I think I'd say because he belongs at 1b/DH and it will be 3+ years before the Sox have a role for him.

 

I think it's too early to say he "belongs" there though. I absolutely think he needs/deserves more time dedicated to one position for a full year before we can make that judgement. And, even if it is two years, he'll still only be 23 and we'll have 3 years left of control on him. I could absolutely see a scenario where he and Konerko split time in 2013 because PK starts to falter.

[Chisoxfn]

Why? You're not alone, a lot of people feel that way.

 

But I mean the kid's 21 years old. To me he's done a great job adjusting. His first year I was fine with as he was adjusing to life not in Cuba and last year I thought he made strides as well. He definitely has flaws but he's just shown so much potential. We're not talking about a 5th year minor leaguer we drafted out of college. We're talking about a 21 year old kid who has spend less than two full years living in the United States.

I'm one of Viciedo's biggest fans on this site. I love the raw tools but I also know he has limitations. However, you made a valid point about letting him spend this season in AAA and playing left field on a regular basis. I don't have a problem with that, but I also know we have major league needs and if the right offer is out there I'm okay moving Viciedo.