Bullpen '11

[wsgdf_2]

I'd like to see Sale used similarly to how the Twins used Johan for two years when they broke him in.

 

Get him as many important innings as you can without making him a full time starter. Let him spot start

and work from the pen, but when you bring him in from the pen put him in important high leverage spots and

let him go a couple of innings.

 

If there's a tight spot in the 6th - bring in Sale and leave him there until the 8th.

 

Get 100+ innings out of the guy.

 

I wouldn't be totally against using him as the closer - but I think you can get more out of him if used creatively and

I also fear his success as closer would peg him into that role permanently.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Balta1701]

I'd like to see Sale used similarly to how the Twins used Johan for two years when they broke him in.

 

Get him as many important innings as you can without making him a full time starter. Let him spot start

and work from the pen, but when you bring him in from the pen put him in important high leverage spots and

let him go a couple of innings.

 

If there's a tight spot in the 6th - bring in Sale and leave him there until the 8th.

 

Get 100+ innings out of the guy.

 

I wouldn't be totally against using him as the closer - but I think you can get more out of him if used creatively and

I also fear his success as closer would peg him into that role permanently.

 

Just my 2 cents.

I like the cut of your jib...I just think it'd be really hard to get 100+ innings out of the guy using him exclusively out of the pen...and you're right, getting 100+ innings out of him would be ar eally good thing.

[knightni]

jib-looker

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I seem to remember an article talking about Ehren Wasserman, and they talked about him as a ROOGIE, and how Ozzie basically used him exclusively against RHB in 2007.

 

EDIT: The numbers support this idea. http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8070/s...p;type=Pitching

 

And the RH/LH splits with Williams weren't exaggerated by any means. Threets faced a ton more RHB's, but was also much more effective against them. Ozzie might not be so oblivious.

I don't care what the stats say, don't even have to look at them. I watched Ozzie manage that guy and Ozzie used him against strings of lefties as well as situations like LR. Ozzie left him in there to get killed. And it doesn't matter how many times Ozzie used him correctly either, because doing what he did with Ehren showed his complete incapability to properly manage a player like that. Ehren never had the stuff to fly open to lefties like that and still get them out within the strikezone. The only thing he even had to get righties with was deception and control, and when you remove the deception and make the control a hindrance because of lack of break you get a pitching machine.

 

I think Ozzie's goal with some of his use of Wassermann was to tell the org that he wanted relievers with the ability to pitch to both sides of the plate, because his relievers were going to be used that way. And that's fine, but kind of contradictory for a manager who plays matchups as much as Ozzie does.

[wsgdf_2]

I don't care what the stats say, don't even have to look at them. I watched Ozzie manage that guy and Ozzie used him against strings of lefties as well as situations like LR. Ozzie left him in there to get killed. And it doesn't matter how many times Ozzie used him correctly either, because doing what he did with Ehren showed his complete incapability to properly manage a player like that. Ehren never had the stuff to fly open to lefties like that and still get them out within the strikezone. The only thing he even had to get righties with was deception and control, and when you remove the deception and make the control a hindrance because of lack of break you get a pitching machine.

 

I think Ozzie's goal with some of his use of Wassermann was to tell the org that he wanted relievers with the ability to pitch to both sides of the plate, because his relievers were going to be used that way. And that's fine, but kind of contradictory for a manager who plays matchups as much as Ozzie does.

 

 

In 2007 Ozzie used him in 23 games against 78 right handed hitters and 18 left handed hitters and he posted a 2.74 era and 1.17 whip.

 

[beck72]

I'd like to see Sale used similarly to how the Twins used Johan for two years when they broke him in.

 

Get him as many important innings as you can without making him a full time starter. Let him spot start

and work from the pen, but when you bring him in from the pen put him in important high leverage spots and

let him go a couple of innings.

 

If there's a tight spot in the 6th - bring in Sale and leave him there until the 8th.

 

Get 100+ innings out of the guy.

 

I wouldn't be totally against using him as the closer - but I think you can get more out of him if used creatively and

I also fear his success as closer would peg him into that role permanently.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Good points. With Sale eating innings like that, the sox though would need another LHP for the pen, as Sale wouldn't be available many times, needing an extra day off.

 

That means Thornton and Crain would be looking as the options as closer.

[soxrwhite]

I'm hoping Sale becomes closer now and forever. If he can be good or great in that role it solves a problem for a long time to come. Imagine the numbers he could put up if started successfully closing this year and had a long career. If he can be a solid closer why try to do more with him. Isn't closer important enough?

[Whitewashed in '05]

I'm hoping Sale becomes closer now and forever. If he can be good or great in that role it solves a problem for a long time to come. Imagine the numbers he could put up if started successfully closing this year and had a long career. If he can be a solid closer why try to do more with him. Isn't closer important enough?

With the arm and the presence he has on the mound he can be so much better than a closer. Unless injuries start flaring up there's no reason not to start him in long term.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'm hoping Sale becomes closer now and forever. If he can be good or great in that role it solves a problem for a long time to come. Imagine the numbers he could put up if started successfully closing this year and had a long career. If he can be a solid closer why try to do more with him. Isn't closer important enough?

 

Nope

[soxrwhite]

A guy that pitches every fifth game is more important than a guy that closes out your wins? Maybe, I gues it depends on where he can find more success. Would you rather have C.C. Sabathia or Mariano Rivera? I guess time will tell who Chris Sale is. I think with his motion he will end up in the pen.

[Balta1701]

A guy that pitches every fifth game is more important than a guy that closes out your wins? Maybe, I gues it depends on where he can find more success. Would you rather have C.C. Sabathia or Mariano Rivera? I guess time will tell who Chris Sale is. I think with his motion he will end up in the pen.

If they're equally good at both spots, you want the guy pitching 200 innings and not 60.

[knightni]

I'd rather have the kid as a starter.

 

He has a 10-15 year career as an effective starter. As a effective closer, it's only maybe 7-10.

 

 

[Balta1701]

I'd rather have the kid as a starter.

 

He has a 10-15 year career as an effective starter. As a effective closer, it's only maybe 7-10.

Huh? Being a reliever shortens a guy's career?

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'd rather have the kid as a starter.

 

He has a 10-15 year career as an effective starter. As a effective closer, it's only maybe 7-10.

 

Unless your name is Mariano Rivera and maybe a healthy Bill Wagner, you always take the premium starter over a premium closer. It's A LOT easier to find a guy that can record 3 outs than it is a guy that can record 21-24 outs.

[knightni]

Huh? Being a reliever shortens a guy's career?

An effective closer has a smaler window where they are dominant than a starter (where you don't have to be as dominant every time out in order to stay a starter).

[knightni]

Unless your name is Mariano Rivera and maybe a healthy Bill Wagner, you always take the premium starter over a premium closer. It's A LOT easier to find a guy that can record 3 outs than it is a guy that can record 21-24 outs.

Exactly.

 

 

[Balta1701]

An effective closer has a smaler window where they are dominant than a starter (where you don't have to be as dominant every time out in order to stay a starter).

I mean, there's guys like Jenks and Papelbon who seem to have worn out after only a few years, but on the other side, not even counting that thing in NYC, guys like Hoffman, Lee Smith, Joe Nathan, Wagner, Eck, KRod, there seem like there are plenty of guys who lasted as closers for a decade+, with maybe 1 injury thrown in there.

 

There's 30 teams of 4-5 starters, while at most teams have 1 closer, so there are fewer chances for a Jamie Moyer career there, but there's plenty of guys who last.

 

On top of that, if a guy is no longer a #1 starter, he stays in the rotation, while a guy who isn't a reliable closer any more can still go to middle relief.

[knightni]

I guess the main question that you ask is, do you want to use a very young starter-quality power lefty who was a top 10 pick as your closer, as opposed to a more veteran reliever who is not starter material?

[Jordan4life_2007]

I guess the main question that you ask is, do you want to use a very young starter-quality power lefty who was a top 10 pick as your closer, as opposed to a more veteran reliever who is not starter material?

 

Closers are a dime a dozen. If you participate in fantasy baseball, as I know you do, you already know this.

[knightni]

Closers are a dime a dozen. If you participate in fantasy baseball, as I know you do, you already know this.

Yes, again I agree.

 

You keep arguing with me, yet we are arguing on the same side of the argument.

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Yes, again I agree.

 

You keep arguing with me, yet we are arguing on the same side of the argument.

 

It just seems that way because I'm replying to you. But I'm actually supporting you. Speedy lead-off men and closers are the two most overrated aspects of baseball there is.

[justBLAZE]

Now let me say here that I know Scott Merkin isn't the most reliable source when it comes to news/information but here is some stuff from his last two columns over at the official website.

 

"I feel good about Matt Thornton. If we decide Chris Sale is in the bullpen, I feel good about Chris Sale," [...] "We have a lot of talent and flexibility to work with when we hash things out and decide what to do."

 

Sale's situation has been frequently discussed during the offseason. Assuming Jake Peavy is not quite ready to go at the start of the season, Sale could be moved into the rotation as Peavy's replacement. But Cooper is not totally in favor of a temporary move for Sale, even though Sale will prepare in Spring Training as a starter.

 

Last year's bullpen was most effective when not only everyone was healthy but there seemed to be defined late-inning roles. Santos worked in the sixth or seventh, Thornton and Putz were the All-Star caliber setup men and then the ball went to Jenks for the ninth. The White Sox will look for a similar 2011 alignment, meaning Thornton might be too valuable to move out of his one or two inning setup role. Of course, Sale will not move out of relief if the White Sox don't add another left-hander.

 

This taken from: With Jenks' departure, White Sox 'pen in flux

 

Another piece is from Merkin's Inbox where he tries to answer fans' (mostly DUMB) questions:

 

Right now, I would say Sale is the White Sox closer, even if he prepares as a starter during Spring Training.

 

That guess is not meant as any slight to Matt Thornton, who certainly can handle this job and probably would become one of the American League's elite closers. He has the makeup and, of course, the pure talent.

 

Thornton ultimately might become a victim of his own All-Star success. The Sox rely on Thornton to shut down hitters in the seventh or the eighth or possibly both innings and might feel more comfortable with the rookie Sale solely working the ninth.

 

Sale could end up as a starter. But pitching coach Don Cooper has stressed to me during two offseason conversations how he doesn't think it's good for Sale's development to use him as a starter in place of Jake Peavy for four or five weeks and then put him back into the bullpen. Remember, just because Sale closes or relieves this season doesn't mean he can't be a top-flight starter in the future. Check out Texas and its potential plans for Neftali Feliz as an example.

 

Link to the inbox: here.

[Springfield Soxfan]

There are still some solid options out there for bullpen help, I realize some of them might be out of KW's budget, but Soriano, Gregg, Romero etc.........I think another move is still coming.

[Jordan4life_2007]

There are still some solid options out there for bullpen help, I realize some of them might be out of KW's budget, but Soriano, Gregg, Romero etc.........I think another move is still coming.

 

I hope not. I really don't want to get locked into another multi-year contract with a reliever. I'm content with saving some coin and going with somebody from the [gulp] farm.

[Springfield Soxfan]

Good point on not wanting another multi-year contract for a reliever, but I'm not sure Infante is the guy, maybe we there is a trade coming. Will be fun to watch.