Twins trade Hardy and Harris

[chw42]

Pitchers are: Brett Jacobson and Jim Hoey.

 

I guess the Twins didn't want to pay Hardy the money, they're signing a Japanese player.

 

Looks like the Twins' middle infield is going to take a hit unless they re-sign Orlando Hudson.

 

Meanwhile, it looks like the Orioles have themselves a decent infield with Reynolds, Hardy, Roberts, and maybe Derrek Lee at 1B (or Luke Scott?).

Edited December 9, 2010 by chw42

[witesoxfan]

I love this trade from the Sox perspective. Hardy is a great defensive shortstop and he's solid offensively, while Alexi Casilla is simply not a good player in any manner, and I will always have my doubts about the defensive prowess of Japanese middle infielders. I would say that it is certainly possible that Nishioka will replicate what Hudson did last year; however, I don't believe the same can be said for Casilla and Hardy. Considering the Twins had a WAR of 5.5 in their middle infield last year (Hardy 2.4, Hudson 3.1), I would say it's likely that they'll take a 1.5 WAR hit there next year (say Casilla at 1.5, Nishioka at 2.5), and it's very possible that it could be as much as 3 (say Casilla anywhere from 0.5-1, Nishioka anywhere from 1.5-2). That's a pretty big hit they are taking in their middle infield.

 

It's early, I know, but I think the Twins are in trouble next year. Their bullpen has as many holes, if not more, than the White Sox bullpen does, I don't think their starting pitching is nearly as good as the Sox is, and quite frankly, I don't know how good their lineup will end up being, and I don't think it will be as good as last year's lineup.

 

 

[chw42]

I love this trade from the Sox perspective. Hardy is a great defensive shortstop and he's solid offensively, while Alexi Casilla is simply not a good player in any manner, and I will always have my doubts about the defensive prowess of Japanese middle infielders. I would say that it is certainly possible that Nishioka will replicate what Hudson did last year; however, I don't believe the same can be said for Casilla and Hardy. Considering the Twins had a WAR of 5.5 in their middle infield last year (Hardy 2.4, Hudson 3.1), I would say it's likely that they'll take a 1.5 WAR hit there next year (say Casilla at 1.5, Nishioka at 2.5), and it's very possible that it could be as much as 3 (say Casilla anywhere from 0.5-1, Nishioka anywhere from 1.5-2). That's a pretty big hit they are taking in their middle infield.

 

It's early, I know, but I think the Twins are in trouble next year. Their bullpen has as many holes, if not more, than the White Sox bullpen does, I don't think their starting pitching is nearly as good as the Sox is, and quite frankly, I don't know how good their lineup will end up being, and I don't think it will be as good as last year's lineup.

 

I hope Thome retires. Because if he does, that Twins offense takes a huge hit. They'll still have Young, Kubel, Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddyer, but what made the Twins offense so good last year was its lack of bad hitters. They had mediocre to very good hitters in every spot of that lineup. Alexi Casilla sucks and like you said, their bullpen is kind of in shambles. They also have to try and retain Pavano. After that great season of attendance, you'd think the Twins would spend some money. It appears they're trying to do the opposite.

[Leonard Washington]

I never count the Twins out, but unless they make some big moves, they're vulnerable.

[caulfield12]

http://sportifi.com/news/Twins-win-bidding...der-175279.html

 

 

It all depends on whether they sign that Japanese player for SS/2B. Remember how big of an effect Iguchi had on the Sox in 2005/2006? Japanese players would seem to fit exactly in the Twins' system of being unselfish, fundamentally sound players who do the little things.

 

Hardy and Hudson had "so-so" or okay seasons, but the Twins might end up being better off investing that money in the pen. Casilla has also shown in the past he can be a pretty decent offensive force, although not recently.

 

They have a lot of issues, Mauer's and Morneau's health, do they keep Cuddyer and where does he fit (OF/3B/1B/DH), can you have Kubel/Young/Cuddyer all on the field at the same time, is Kyle Gibson ready, is Nathan going to take at least a year to be back in true form....how do they replace Guerrier/Crain/Rauch, do they dare not retain Capps, etc. I guess the first domino to fall will be Pavano, though.

 

Without Pavano, it's Liriano, Duensing, Baker, Blackburn, Slowey and Gibson, still six deep.

 

How much are they willing to pay Thome? He's going to get more than in 2010....but how much more are they willing to go to? They have to be careful not to insult him with a lowball offer after the numbers he put up for them, basically saving their butts when Morneau was out.

Edited December 9, 2010 by caulfield12

[justBLAZE]

I hope Thome retires. Because if he does, that Twins offense takes a huge hit. They'll still have Young, Kubel, Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddyer, but what made the Twins offense so good last year was its lack of bad hitters. They had mediocre to very good hitters in every spot of that lineup. Alexi Casilla sucks and like you said, their bullpen is kind of in shambles. They also have to try and retain Pavano. After that great season of attendance, you'd think the Twins would spend some money. It appears they're trying to do the opposite.

 

Thome officially said he wants to play 2 more years.

[chw42]

Thome officially said he wants to play 2 more years.

 

I just hope it's not with the Twins.

[witesoxfan]

It all depends on whether they sign that Japanese player for SS/2B. Remember how big of an effect Iguchi had on the Sox in 2005/2006? Japanese players would seem to fit exactly in the Twins' system of being unselfish, fundamentally sound players who do the little things.

 

It's a foregone conclusion that they'll sign him, it's just a matter of how much. And then at that point, it's a matter of how good he is.

 

I also don't think Iguchi had some world-shifting effect on the 2005 White Sox, but instead they just had a good, solid 2B for the first time since Ray Durham (since I don't think you can really count Roberto Alomar...he was OK).

 

Hardy and Hudson had "so-so" or okay seasons, but the Twins might end up being better off investing that money in the pen. Casilla has also shown in the past he can be a pretty decent offensive force, although not recently.

 

Having seen both play quite a bit, I can say that they were pretty damn solid defensively. They also both had pretty solid seasons offensively considering the offensive environment around the league. I also don't think you can considering a .707 OPS a "force," and that was the only time that he received extended at bats that he was anywhere near average offensively. He's just not a very good player.

 

They have a lot of issues, Mauer's and Morneau's health, do they keep Cuddyer and where does he fit (OF/3B/1B/DH), can you have Kubel/Young/Cuddyer all on the field at the same time, is Kyle Gibson ready, is Nathan going to take at least a year to be back in true form....how do they replace Guerrier/Crain/Rauch, do they dare not retain Capps, etc. I guess the first domino to fall will be Pavano, though.

 

Gonna try and answer each query with a one word answer...

 

no, dunno, yes, OF, maybe, no, hopefully, magic, no, yep

 

Without Pavano, it's Liriano, Duensing, Baker, Blackburn, Slowey and Gibson, still six deep.

 

Blackburn is still awful, and Gibson is still young and raw. Slowey has to prove he can stay healthy, and Baker has to prove he's not mediocre. Duensing was great, but he's going to have to prove that he's Buehrle and not Perkins.

 

Yes, they can throw out an adequate starting pitching staff without Pavano, but it's not intimidating any way you size it up. They have a few other s***ty arms they can throw into the rotation that'll probably give them 2 great starts before crapping out on them.

 

How much are they willing to pay Thome? He's going to get more than in 2010....but how much more are they willing to go to? They have to be careful not to insult him with a lowball offer after the numbers he put up for them, basically saving their butts when Morneau was out.

 

Hopefully they pay him $15 million. He put up better splits than Dunn last year right? And Dunn is averaging $14 million a year. So Thome is worth $15 million to the Twins. Sign him up!

 

In all seriousness, I really doubt that Thome gives 2 s***s about money at this point. It's simply a matter of whether or not he is going to come back and, if he is, if it will be with the Twins. After the season he had, and the fact that the Twins still won't have a lot of at bats for him going into the season (not as many as they did last year considering how questionable Young was going into the year and the fact that he's viewed as solid offensively now), I just don't know where they're going to fit him into the lineup on a regular basis.

Edited December 9, 2010 by witesoxfan

[caulfield12]

And it seems they offered arbitration to Orlando Hudson....so that makes Casilla the utility player, and Harris/Tolbert are/were expendable.

 

So the Japanese player would definitely be at SS, they already paid $5.3 milllion for posting rights.

[witesoxfan]

And it seems they offered arbitration to Orlando Hudson....so that makes Casilla the utility player, and Harris/Tolbert are/were expendable.

 

So the Japanese player would definitely be at SS, they already paid $5.3 milllion for posting rights.

 

Orlando Hudson declined the Twins arbitration offer. He's probably going to play somewhere else next year.

[caulfield12]

But we're all still operating under the assumption Morneau will be back next year...is that really a certainty?

 

 

Chicago GM Kenny Williams, after announcing Konerko's new three-year, $37.5 million deal, stated that his bullpen needs to be M&M proof.

 

``We'll take a look at maybe a third left-hander, situational guy,'' Williams said. ``Someone who can get Morneau and Mauer out and then another right-hander.''

startribune.com (L.NealeIII)

Edited December 9, 2010 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

But we're all still operating under the assumption Morneau will be back next year...is that really a certainty?

Unless he takes another blow to the head, yes, he's reportedly ready to go.

[caulfield12]

I didn't even notice it was for that darned Bartlett.

 

Great, another Piranha back in town...coming off a down season, of course he'll end up being an MVP candidate again next year.

 

However, on grass, Bartlett's game isn't quite as effective IMO. Interesting they're going away from power in Hardy and back to their old SS.

 

So that leaves the new Iguchi for 2B, Bartlett at SS, Mr. 2nd half ROY at 3B...not altogether bad, but they still have to find at-bats for Cuddyer, hope for a rebound from Span and pray that Kubel and Young don't play any worse defensively. Of course, Cuddyer could end up at 1B with Thome DHing depending on Morneau's status.

Edited December 9, 2010 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

I didn't even notice it was for that darned Bartlett.

 

Great, another Piranha back in town...coming off a down season, of course he'll end up being an MVP candidate again next year.

 

However, on grass, Bartlett's game isn't quite as effective IMO. Interesting they're going away from power in Hardy and back to their old SS.

 

So that leaves the new Iguchi for 2B, Bartlett at SS, Mr. 2nd half ROY at 3B...not altogether bad, but they still have to find at-bats for Cuddyer, hope for a rebound from Span and pray that Kubel and Young don't play any worse defensively. Of course, Cuddyer could end up at 1B with Thome DHing depending on Morneau's status.

Huh?

[LittleHurt05]

I didn't even notice it was for that darned Bartlett.

 

Great, another Piranha back in town...coming off a down season, of course he'll end up being an MVP candidate again next year.

 

However, on grass, Bartlett's game isn't quite as effective IMO. Interesting they're going away from power in Hardy and back to their old SS.

 

So that leaves the new Iguchi for 2B, Bartlett at SS, Mr. 2nd half ROY at 3B...not altogether bad, but they still have to find at-bats for Cuddyer, hope for a rebound from Span and pray that Kubel and Young don't play any worse defensively. Of course, Cuddyer could end up at 1B with Thome DHing depending on Morneau's status.

 

Am I missing something? I thought Bartlett was traded to the Padres???

[Balta1701]

Am I missing something? I thought Bartlett was traded to the Padres???

You're not missing something, although I'm reading this morning that the Bartlett deal may fall through.

[LittleHurt05]

Meanwhile, it looks like the Orioles have themselves a decent infield with Reynolds, Hardy, Roberts, and maybe Derrek Lee at 1B (or Luke Scott?).

 

Maybe now they will start losing games 8-6 instead of 8-3

[caulfield12]

"The Rays and Twins decided to trade their starting shortstops"

 

I'm doing about as well as Cowley, I just saw that line at MLBTR and just assumed they traded between the two teams without even reading the rest of the blurb...

 

Oops. That's what happens when you start following off-season baseball with the Dunn signing, lol. I didn't even know that Orlando Hudson declined arbitration...so the Twins will get a sandwich pick since he's a Type B, undoubtedly a MLB-ready collegian who will probably turn into another Brian Duensing or Piranha and somehow hurt the White Sox in 2011.

 

At least Bartlett won't be going back to Minnesota. I hated that guy when he was on the Twins, and he wasn't even as good as he became in TB.

[joeynach]

Now watch Danny "no one has heard of me" Valencia have a nice sophomore slump year.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'm done doubting the Twins in any capacity. Unless Joe Mauer suddenly slips into a coma I will view them as the favorite until we show otherwise.

[sircaffey]

quite frankly, I don't know how good their lineup will end up being, and I don't think it will be as good as last year's lineup.

That's a good question indeed. Though I wouldn't rule out it being better than last season. Morneau missed 81 games, and Mauer, Kubel, Span, and Cuddyer all had .100+ drops in OPS. Should be interesting to see how they perform after a year in the new stadium. Could be scary good.

[Balta1701]

That's a good question indeed. Though I wouldn't rule out it being better than last season. Morneau missed 81 games, and Mauer, Kubel, Span, and Cuddyer all had .100+ drops in OPS. Should be interesting to see how they perform after a year in the new stadium. Could be scary good.

I still expect to see some serious movement from them at some point this offseason. They've lost so many bullpen pieces that they're going to really need to make a move there; even they can't possibly have that many bullpen callups ready.

 

If I were in their spot, I'd be looking to re-sign Thome, and then looking to find a RH hitter who can play the OF sometimes and perhaps platoon with Thome on other days (Andruw Jones would be perfect and he actually hits balls far enough to leave that ballpark)...then look to move Kubel to fill in my pitching staff.

[The Ginger Kid]

Now watch Danny "no one has heard of me" Valencia have a nice sophomore slump year.

as long as they keep bringing up gems like this guy i will never doubt their plans

[witesoxfan]

That's a good question indeed. Though I wouldn't rule out it being better than last season. Morneau missed 81 games, and Mauer, Kubel, Span, and Cuddyer all had .100+ drops in OPS. Should be interesting to see how they perform after a year in the new stadium. Could be scary good.

 

Some of that can be attributed to the improved pitching around the league, whatever it was that caused it. They also had Thome give them an OPS of like 1.150 in the second half of the year, which is absolutely insane.

 

I also don't know how many moves the Twins can actually make. We as Sox fans worry that we have too much committed to too little, but the Twins are pretty much in that same exact boat.

 

Mauer $23, Morneau $14, Nathan $11.25, Cuddyer $10.5, Kubel $5.25, Baker $5, Capps ~$4.5, Blackburn $3, Young ~$4, Liriano ~$3-3.5, Span $1, Slowey ~$1-1.5, Repko $600K, Neshek $625K...it's a total of about $87 million. That doesn't include Nishioka, whose average cost will total about $6 million (due to the posting fee paid all at once this year, plus he is probably going to get somewhere around $10-15 million over about 3 years), nor does it include the possibility of them still adding Pavano.

 

I'm sure they'll have wiggle room up to around $105 million, but I'm not sure they can really go out and afford to make a drastic move at this point without shedding any other salary.

[soxsoxsoxsox]

Minnesota fans are not amused lolz.

 

this made me lol:

 

"Who would have thought the Twins' window of opportunity was: 2010. Thats it. Time to rebuild.

 

Blow up the team, blow up Target Field, blow up the whole ****ing state for all I care, I'm done with it."

Edited December 10, 2010 by buhbuhburrrrlz