Multiple Sources: Sox actively shopping Quentin

[joeynach]

Yeah, I'm definitely not saying 600 AB for him. I think in the range of 400-425 (playing 3-4 times a week) with Viciedo getting the rest (+ more AB at 1B/3B/LF) would be a perfectly productive solution in RF. I certainly wouldn't pass on a nice Quentin trade because of it. I think KW might be thinking along the same lines but with Teahen playing a more prominent role (hopefully not though).

 

OMG if they move CQ becuase there is a belief that Jones/Teahen can do an adequate job in replacing him, both Offense and defense, then KW is stone cold crazy. You would be lucky to get any sort of league avg production on all fronts out of that fantastic duo.

[RockRaines]

Still talking about shopping Q? Come on. It doesnt take a genius to know they would listen, but not shop their starting RF who is signed under market price.

[RockRaines]

Wanna know who is on their way out? Look at a position that is signed for 3 years and more. Those players are being shopped. Hard.

[Quin]

Wanna know who is on their way out? Look at a position that is signed for 3 years and more. Those players are being shopped. Hard.

 

Dunn and Paulie?

 

But in all seriousness, doesn't that mean: Rios, Floyd, Peavy?

[Jordan4life_2007]

Dunn and Paulie?

 

But in all seriousness, doesn't that mean: Rios, Floyd, Peavy?

 

That's about it. Nobody wanted Peavy's salary two years ago. And nobody wants it now 2 years and multiple injuries later. Trading Rios would create another gaping hole in CF (the nearly $40 million he's owned doesn't help things). They'd have to be floored to deal Gavin and his extremely cost-efficient $12 million over the next two years. There's just not any real flexibility anywhere without increasing the payroll. And I believe KW this time when he says they've hit their limit for now.

[SoxAce]

I think me and DA are the only two on this site that was game on dealing Rios (since his value is very high right now) but isn't Teahen signed for three more years? (I usually would look this up myself, but I'm about to go to bed) I would think KW has got to be shopping him as plan a. (though he'll definitely have to add cash like the Linebrink deal) I think Peavy has a buy-out clause after 2012, though I could be wrong on that.

Edited December 12, 2010 by J.Reedfan8

[witesoxfan]

I think me and DA are the only two on this site that was game on dealing Rios (since his value is very high right now) but isn't Teahen signed for three more years? (I usually would look this up myself, but I'm about to go to bed) I would think KW has got to be shopping him as plan a. (though he'll definitely have to add cash like the Linebrink deal) I think Peavy has a buy-out clause after 2012, though I could be wrong on that.

 

Teahen is only signed for 2 more years, and as was mentioned (and for which I was torn apart, even though I fully understand it), Teahen represents negative value on the trade market.

 

And just because you and Dick were the only ones who mentioned dealing Rios, it doesn't mean that others don't believe in the plausibility of it; I have too. Rios is a good player, and this past season has helped re-establish his value on the open market, and the Sox could get good value for him at this point, and in the grand scheme of things, it would be considered a huge addition to the franchise - not giving up anything to get whatever it is that the Sox would get. The fact of the matter is that he represents a monstrosity of an upgrade on anyone that the Sox currently have in CF. Williams can be shopping him all he wants to, but the Sox absolutely must be getting a CF from somewhere else before they even consider dealing him.

 

 

[caulfield12]

I'm almost certain that Teahen is "only" for two more years, definitely not three.

 

Not to mention there are other CFer's out there that teams will be willing to dump and send money along with them....Beltran, Vernon Wells, Mike Cameron, etc. Not sure about Rasmus or either Upton, Chris Young, etc., how available they are at this point, but trading Rios would be foolhardy, and no way that KW simply gets bowled over with an offer. If for no other reason than it would look pretty silly to give up a premium prospect when any team in baseball could have had him for free. I know, I know...any team in the past could have had, say, Jayson Werth or Carlos Pena for next to nothing.

 

But it's basically making KW look brilliant and the rest of baseball look silly. I think most GM's want to wait one more half season of productivity before making a substantive offer on Rios, as he tailed off a lot the last two months.

Edited December 12, 2010 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

OMG if they move CQ becuase there is a belief that Jones/Teahen can do an adequate job in replacing him, both Offense and defense, then KW is stone cold crazy. You would be lucky to get any sort of league avg production on all fronts out of that fantastic duo.

 

I think you are very, very wrong. Teahen is an OK hitter - probably .750 OPS or so - and grades out at average to below average defensively in RF. Andruw Jones is a good power hitter, but not much more offensively, and he is great defensively in RF. Carlos Quentin is a good, though very inconsistent, hitter, and grades out at bad to horrendous defensively.

 

I don't believe that it is wrong to believe that Teahen/Jones can outproduce Quentin; in fact, I believe strongly that Teahen and Jones can, overall, be worth 2-3 times that of Quentin. However, considering every potential circumstance, the White Sox would have to get good to great value on Quentin and they must be getting good value on Andruw Jones.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Teahen is only signed for 2 more years, and as was mentioned (and for which I was torn apart, even though I fully understand it), Teahen represents negative value on the trade market.

 

You were torn apart for this undeniable fact?

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

I think you are very, very wrong. Teahen is an OK hitter - probably .750 OPS or so - and grades out at average to below average defensively in RF. Andruw Jones is a good power hitter, but not much more offensively, and he is great defensively in RF. Carlos Quentin is a good, though very inconsistent, hitter, and grades out at bad to horrendous defensively.

 

I don't believe that it is wrong to believe that Teahen/Jones can outproduce Quentin; in fact, I believe strongly that Teahen and Jones can, overall, be worth 2-3 times that of Quentin. However, considering every potential circumstance, the White Sox would have to get good to great value on Quentin and they must be getting good value on Andruw Jones.

Teahen and Jones worth 2 to 3 times that of Quentin? Really? Quentin mashes RHP. His OPS against RHP blows Teahen's OPS vs. RHP away, and if you saw Mark Teahen play RF, he isn't a big upgrade defensively over Quentin either, in fact, he may be worse. And don't even mention they will make approximately the same amount of money.Jones vs. LHP and defensively is obviously better at least all around, but he's also had 3 or 4 months in a row for 3 straight seasons where he did absolutely nothing.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

You were torn apart for this undeniable fact?

 

Yeah, I think you were one of them, when I mentioned Teahen plus a relief prospect for Lyon. I obviously know that Teahen is valueless, but including a relief prospect along with him for a good but not great reliever atleast might work.

 

Teahen and Jones worth 2 to 3 times that of Quentin? Really? Quentin mashes RHP. His OPS against RHP blows Teahen's OPS vs. RHP away, and if you saw Mark Teahen play RF, he isn't a big upgrade defensively over Quentin either, in fact, he may be worse. And don't even mention they will make approximately the same amount of money.Jones vs. LHP and defensively is obviously better at least all around, but he's also had 3 or 4 months in a row for 3 straight seasons where he did absolutely nothing.

 

Depending on whose metrics you want to use - baseballreference or FanGraphs - Andruw Jones by himself, in limited playing time, was worth 15-20 times that of Carlos Quentin last year. I don't think Quentin is THAT bad in the outfield, but he is not good defensively, and that does cost the Sox runs and games.

 

I also think you are being delusional if you believe that Mark Teahen is worse defensively in the outfield than Carlos Quentin. I don't see anything that suggests that at all. If you compare them 3B to RF, then sure, you have an argument, but that's about your only argument, and that'd be even more ridiculous.

 

Quite frankly, Carlos Quentin is Carlos Lee/Jermaine Dye/Adam Dunn bad defensively. That affects his game and overall value tremendously. I would say he is obviously quite a bit better offensively, but he should be DHing or playing 1B for someone.

 

You know that I don't think the Sox should trade Quentin unless they can get proper value (and I don't believe they should because they won't get proper value). It's not ridiculous to think that a Mark Teahen/Andruw Jones platoon could be more effective overall though.

[caulfield12]

Quentin had some seasons in the minors where he was actually rated/graded as above average.

 

In 2008, he wasn't horrible, compared to say Josh Fields or Mark Teahen at 3B. A lot of posters here felt that he would be even more comfortable playing his natural position, RF. And he hasn't really demonstrated the arm strength he had before his injuries, but we haven't had a RF who could throw in the Top 10-15% at his position for ages.

 

I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that he will be significantly improved this year if his foot has healed 100%. That's a big IF, of course.

 

One thing is for sure, if you took a poll of most in baseball, they'd say we would be much more likely to win the ALCD with Quentin getting the majority of at-bats over a Teahen/Jones platoon. And I don't this the disparity between his home and road numbers will hold up either. (Didn't the same thing happen with Beckham in his rookie year, there was about a 150-175 OPS difference between home and road?)

 

I've watched Teahen try to play both 2B and RF when he was in Kansas City. He really is worse than Quentin's worst possible performance out there.

Edited December 12, 2010 by caulfield12

[Jordan4life_2007]

Yeah, I think you were one of them, when I mentioned Teahen plus a relief prospect for Lyon. I obviously know that Teahen is valueless, but including a relief prospect along with him for a good but not great reliever atleast might work.

 

Really? Well I don't remember. But if I did it you deserved it. Hahahahaha.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Jordan4life

[nitetrain8601]

Yeah, I think you were one of them, when I mentioned Teahen plus a relief prospect for Lyon. I obviously know that Teahen is valueless, but including a relief prospect along with him for a good but not great reliever atleast might work.

 

 

 

Depending on whose metrics you want to use - baseballreference or FanGraphs - Andruw Jones by himself, in limited playing time, was worth 15-20 times that of Carlos Quentin last year. I don't think Quentin is THAT bad in the outfield, but he is not good defensively, and that does cost the Sox runs and games.

 

I also think you are being delusional if you believe that Mark Teahen is worse defensively in the outfield than Carlos Quentin. I don't see anything that suggests that at all. If you compare them 3B to RF, then sure, you have an argument, but that's about your only argument, and that'd be even more ridiculous.

 

Quite frankly, Carlos Quentin is Carlos Lee/Jermaine Dye/Adam Dunn bad defensively. That affects his game and overall value tremendously. I would say he is obviously quite a bit better offensively, but he should be DHing or playing 1B for someone.

 

You know that I don't think the Sox should trade Quentin unless they can get proper value (and I don't believe they should because they won't get proper value). It's not ridiculous to think that a Mark Teahen/Andruw Jones platoon could be more effective overall though.

 

Good post and I agree.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Teahen is garbage. A Jones/Teahen platoon is also garbage. If Jones were capable of playing every day I would get that, but he's not. He's a great 4th OF and a luxury we probably can't afford anymore.

 

Any deal with Carlos needs to either bring back a legitimate starting OF or needs to bring back something we can trade for a legitimate starting OF.

 

And the Rios speculation is stupid.

 

Alex Rios since 2006 and going forward:

2006 .302/.349/.516/.865 15 SB 17 HR Age 25

2007 .297/.354/.498/.852 17 SB 24 HR Age 26

2008 .291/.337/.461/.798 32 SB 15 HR Age 27

2009 .247/.296/.395/.691 24 SB 17 HR Age 28

2010 .284/.334/.457/.791 34 SB 21 HR Age 29

2011 ??? / ??? / ??? / ??? ?? SB ?? HR Age 30 $12M

2012 ??? / ??? / ??? / ??? ?? SB ?? HR Age 31 $12M

2013 ??? / ??? / ??? / ??? ?? SB ?? HR Age 32 $12.5M

2014 ??? / ??? / ??? / ??? ?? SB ?? HR Age 33 $12.5M

2015 ??? / ??? / ??? / ??? ?? SB ?? HR Age 34 $13.5M with $1M buyout

 

Carl Crawford just got paid an average of over $20M per to play LF through the age of 35. Alex is only signed through the age of 33 and he's a CF who can also play RF. Alex Rios also hasn't even scratched the surface of his potential and is definitely capable of developing into more of a HR hitter the way JD did later on in his career. If I were Kenny I'd have to be blown away to trade Alex.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I don't get the Kerry Wood love from some around here. He has a good couple months in New York and all of a sudden he's worth a ton of money. Forget the last two years in Cleveland where he was pretty damn bad.

Yeah, he's got a mid-upper 90's fastball with movement along with a wicked slider and a curveball that is usually unhittable. He was actually very good his first year peripherally aside from his BB rate which is always high, and he was more than "good" in his time with New York, he was vicious. His questions are all about his health and his walk rate, but when he's healthy and on the field he is the type of pitcher that could walk the bases loaded and still K the next three guys. When he gets ahead of hitters it's very hard to get him on his slider or curve.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Teahen and Jones worth 2 to 3 times that of Quentin? Really? Quentin mashes RHP. His OPS against RHP blows Teahen's OPS vs. RHP away, and if you saw Mark Teahen play RF, he isn't a big upgrade defensively over Quentin either, in fact, he may be worse. And don't even mention they will make approximately the same amount of money.Jones vs. LHP and defensively is obviously better at least all around, but he's also had 3 or 4 months in a row for 3 straight seasons where he did absolutely nothing.

Yep. One thing I generally hate is the automatic assumption people make in regards to platoons, like you can just take one guy's career numbers vs. LHP and another guy's career numbers vs. RHP, take their estimated defensive abilities (and estimating Teahen as an average defensive RF or anything even close to that is a HUGE overestimation IMO) and put them together and get exactly what you expected. Some players NEED everyday playing time to even hit well enough to be serviceable in a platoon, and in the case of that turd Teahen you're assuming he's capable of doing that while playing a level of defense that I personally don't think he's capable of playing. And with Jones you're just looking at the power and the defense, but what good is that defense when he's only out there against LHP? Most of the time Teahen would be out there dragging his s***ty ass all over The Godfather's beautiful field and disgracing the black and white. Besides, Jones' average is usually way down and it makes the OBP suck with it.

 

Jones/Teahen in RF would be a massive failure and waste of money. Instead of assuming the best case scenario for both and then comparing it to underwhelming Carlos Quentin, assume best case scenario Carlos Quentin and then compare that to best case scenario Teahen/Jones. Even if you don't want Carlos in RF you can move him back to left and either pick up another RF while dumping Pierre or even bringing in Jordan Danks. Now I would hate the thought of that on the surface, but if Carlos is mashing like he's capable of then D2's defense in RF is going to work since the only bat he's replacing is Pierre, and the loss in offense from Pierre to D2 would be more than made up by CQ. And the defense advantage of D2 in RF over CQ in RF would be enormous. There are far better and more cost effective solutions than Teahen/Jones, which is pretty much admitting defeat even before you take the field.

[sircaffey]

Who can we sign mid-season to replace Quentin when he breaks his collarbone diving for a routine flyball? You think Jermaine would want to come back?

[bschmaranz]

Yeah, he's got a mid-upper 90's fastball with movement along with a wicked slider and a curveball that is usually unhittable. He was actually very good his first year peripherally aside from his BB rate which is always high, and he was more than "good" in his time with New York, he was vicious. His questions are all about his health and his walk rate, but when he's healthy and on the field he is the type of pitcher that could walk the bases loaded and still K the next three guys. When he gets ahead of hitters it's very hard to get him on his slider or curve.

 

There's your key there. When is that? His ability to stay healthy for a couple months last season ends with him getting a s***load of money... Just doesn't make sense to me.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

There's your key there. When is that? His ability to stay healthy for a couple months last season ends with him getting a s***load of money... Just doesn't make sense to me.

I think a fair deal is about a $4-5M base with another $3-4M in performance incentives and a team option with a small buyout. It doesn't appear we could afford even that though, since we couldn't bring back JJ.

[Balta1701]

I think a fair deal is about a $4-5M base with another $3-4M in performance incentives and a team option with a small buyout. It doesn't appear we could afford even that though, since we couldn't bring back JJ.

I think we "Could" afford that...I think that in both cases though there's plenty of reason to think that you'd be highly likely to just wind up out $4-$5 million.

 

I think everyone out there understands that if JJ Putz could have stayed healthy, he'd have been better off taking a 1 year deal as the Sox's closer, piling up 30+ saves for a playoff team, and hitting the market one more time next year to try to score a 3/$30 deal as a closer. But...if you're a pitcher with no confidence in your ability to have a full, healthy season, and someone offers you a 2 year deal...you jump at the 2 year deal.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I think we "Could" afford that...I think that in both cases though there's plenty of reason to think that you'd be highly likely to just wind up out $4-$5 million.

 

I think everyone out there understands that if JJ Putz could have stayed healthy, he'd have been better off taking a 1 year deal as the Sox's closer, piling up 30+ saves for a playoff team, and hitting the market one more time next year to try to score a 3/$30 deal as a closer. But...if you're a pitcher with no confidence in your ability to have a full, healthy season, and someone offers you a 2 year deal...you jump at the 2 year deal.

I don't necessarily think Putz has a shortage of confidence or anything. He probably just took the most money offered as the safe thing. That happens all the time. Different circumstances, but that would be kind of like saying Longoria had no confidence in his ability to be a superstar and make a quadrillion majillion dollars back when he was still a prospect. There have been many occasions where a player has passed up lots of guaranteed money for a shot at a huge payday and ended up screwing himself. Look at Orlando Hudson, who the DBacks offered a ton of money to. Hudson may not make in 3 years what he'd have made in 1 more year with the DBacks.

[Balta1701]

I don't necessarily think Putz has a shortage of confidence or anything. He probably just took the most money offered as the safe thing. That happens all the time. Different circumstances, but that would be kind of like saying Longoria had no confidence in his ability to be a superstar and make a quadrillion majillion dollars back when he was still a prospect. There have been many occasions where a player has passed up lots of guaranteed money for a shot at a huge payday and ended up screwing himself. Look at Orlando Hudson, who the DBacks offered a ton of money to. Hudson may not make in 3 years what he'd have made in 1 more year with the DBacks.

Longoria gave up 2 FA years as option years worth $11+ million 6 years in the future, and in exchange guaranteed himself nearly $20 million before he'd played a month in the bigs. That's a little bit different than the calculus of a guy taking a 2 year deal rather than a 1 year deal.

 

Yeah, he def. took the most money offered as a safe thing...but I think the only reason he did that was his health. If you disagree, ok, but I bet I'm right.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Longoria gave up 2 FA years as option years worth $11+ million 6 years in the future, and in exchange guaranteed himself nearly $20 million before he'd played a month in the bigs. That's a little bit different than the calculus of a guy taking a 2 year deal rather than a 1 year deal.

 

Yeah, he def. took the most money offered as a safe thing...but I think the only reason he did that was his health. If you disagree, ok, but I bet I'm right.

I don't know what you're arguing. The potential for injury is a factor for everyone and always a strong consideration when signing any deal, prior injury history or not. My point was that confidence doesn't have anything to do with it. Putz is probably confident in his ability to stay healthy throughout his deal. He took the money however because he didn't want to gamble on it. Personal confidence and honest risk assessment may intertwine but they are two completely different things.