Cliff Lee signs with Phillies

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Sure makes it a lot easier with a payroll that size.

And while getting nothing but pats on the backs for abusing the draft and splurging internationally. Boston gets way too much credit for what they do. Any idiot with a subscription to perfectgame.org could build a top-end farm system if given enough money. Any idiot with the prospects could understand the value of Adrian Gonzalez.

 

Aside from that, Boston finds their diamonds in the rough and they do their scouting. Great, so does every other team in baseball. And if they didn't they'd have no excuse for paying their front office personnel wages over $12/hour.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

That's the easy response. But they spend on the draft and have become a player development machine. Look at their current core, guys all in their 20's that came up through their system: Pedroia, Youk, Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon and Bard. You're talking all-star to MVP caliber right there. When your system can produce that much then yes, it's A LOT easier to flex your financial muscle. And then have enough to land a bonafide superstar (Gonzalez) and still have valuable pieces in the system? I won't discount the financial advantages they have. But it's certainly not as simple as "well, they can spend x amount of dollars."

Yes it is. On that list Pedroia was the real find. You want to talk about scouting on a budget you need to look at Atlanta.

[beautox]

That's the easy response. But they spend on the draft and have become a player development machine. Look at their current core, guys all in their 20's that came up through their system: Pedroia, Youk, Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon and Bard. You're talking all-star to MVP caliber right there. When your system can produce that much then yes, it's A LOT easier to flex your financial muscle. And then have enough to land a bonafide superstar (Gonzalez) and still have valuable pieces in the system? I won't discount the financial advantages they have. But it's certainly not as simple as "well, they can spend x amount of dollars."

 

Seriously its too easy and a cop out to just say "well they have so much money". As you said if you look up and down their roster most everything has been bought and paid for by their farm system. There have been some washes {hanley for beckett}. But the way the red sox have been able to previously manipulate the draft in the past by signing/trading for all those type A rentals and then offering ARB and letting them walk for first, sandwich and second round picks is really a testament to their scouting and player development.

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Having the ability to retain those players is pretty important though too. I mean, before moving into Target Field and resigning Mauer (and Morneau, Cuddyer, and the smaller extensions), how many players did the Twins either trade or lose to free agency simply because they couldn't afford to keep them? Same thing with Tampa Bay and Milwaukee, and going back a few years, Cleveland and Oakland too. Boston spending as much as they do on the MLB roster does have a huge effect on their team, regardless of whether they are producing those players or not. Had Youkilis come up with Oakland and had this much success, do you think there's any way he's still with them today? I would say there is no shot in hell of that.

 

I agree. That's why I said I would never discount the financial advantage they have. But to find that much talent in a relative short amount of time isn't just about spending money.

 

Yes it is. On that list Pedroia was the real find. You want to talk about scouting on a budget you need to look at Atlanta.

 

Will agree to disagree. As I get older, I just don't see things in a vacuum nearly as much (not saying that is the case with you). I notice with some on this board that there's always something. Phillies? Twins? Red Sox? Doesn't matter. Just don't give them credit no matter what. The Red Sox are the s***. I don't care what anybody says.

[witesoxfan]

Looks like the 5/$120 as mentioned previously; however, the option is worth $27.5 million and vests if he pitches 200 innings in 2015 or 400 between 2014 and 2015. The buyout is worth $12.5 million.

 

So it looks like $21.5 million between 2011-2015 ($107.5 mill) plus the $12.5 buyout ($120) or $27.5 ($135)

 

6/$135 really isn't too bad, is it?

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Seriously its too easy and a cop out to just say "well they have so much money". As you said if you look up and down their roster most everything has been bought and paid for by their farm system. There have been some washes {hanley for beckett}. But the way the red sox have been able to previously manipulate the draft in the past by signing/trading for all those type A rentals and then offering ARB and letting them walk for first, sandwich and second round picks is really a testament to their scouting and player development.

They offer arb in stupid situations too. They offered arb to Varitek after he came off a dogs*** year because they could. Other than the Yankees, no other team in baseball would have done that. Varitek declined, realized no one would pay him like a star when he wasn't, and then came back on a far better deal. But that was a stupid decision that just kind of worked out.

 

The Red Sox abuse every system they can find and they're lauded for it. WTF would the Minnesota Twins have been able to do with that kind of free reign to do whatever they wanted?

[witesoxfan]

Maybe I'm the idiot here, but is Philly really going to have to pick up THAT much on Blanton's deal? I'm thinking they can probably pick up anywhere from $3-5 mill (effectively making it a 2/$12-14 deal). Blanton is still about a league average pitcher and he will work well in the middle to back of pretty much any rotation in the majors.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I agree. That's why I said I would never discount the financial advantage they have. But to find that much talent in a relative short amount of time isn't just about spending money.

 

 

 

Will agree to disagree. As I get older, I just don't see things in a vacuum nearly as much (not saying that is the case with you). I notice with some on this board that there's always something. Phillies? Twins? Red Sox? Doesn't matter. Just don't give them credit no matter what. The Red Sox are the s***. I don't care what anybody says.

I think the Red Sox are taking advantage of every avenue they can in order to win the most baseball games and world championships as possible. I'd do the same thing if I could, even though I believe it's still wrong, because I want to win the same way. All I'm saying is that I'm not going to applaud them for finding out that they can build a great farm and a great MLB team that way. They're supposed to be able to do that, and if they couldn't, they'd have to be idiots.

[witesoxfan]

They offer arb in stupid situations too. They offered arb to Varitek after he came off a dogs*** year because they could. Other than the Yankees, no other team in baseball would have done that. Varitek declined, realized no one would pay him like a star when he wasn't, and then came back on a far better deal. But that was a stupid decision that just kind of worked out.

 

The Red Sox abuse every system they can find and they're lauded for it. WTF would the Minnesota Twins have been able to do with that kind of free reign to do whatever they wanted?

 

Well they would do what they always do...try to take over the world.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Maybe I'm the idiot here, but is Philly really going to have to pick up THAT much on Blanton's deal? I'm thinking they can probably pick up anywhere from $3-5 mill (effectively making it a 2/$12-14 deal). Blanton is still about a league average pitcher and he will work well in the middle to back of pretty much any rotation in the majors.

All they have to do is take back a small bad contract like a Teahen IMO. If they want something pretty good they'll have to eat a lot more, but I imagine at this point salary relief is a lot more important to them than the prospects.

[RockRaines]

So are we to believe that Lee took less money to play for the Phillies, or that all the "leaks" in the media were planted there by his agent.

[Chisoxfn]

If I'm the White Sox and the Yankees want a pitcher from me, I'm making them take my salary. I also want Joba Chamberlain and Brett Gardner. My thoughts are a Floyd + Teahen or Pierre for the two of them. Someone call tell me it is or isn't fair, but that is what I would, at a minimum, ask for.

 

I'd also trade Edwin for Joba/Gardner.

 

Note: I'm not saying the Yanks do this, but s***, if they feel they have a gun to there head, why not try.

[Harry Chappas]

The NL continues to get much better as that NL East is pretty stacked.

 

I am not sure why the Phils did not go after Crawford instead of Lee. Lee seems like overkill to me. They did not lose because of their pitching last year.

[maggsmaggs]

If I'm the White Sox and the Yankees want a pitcher from me, I'm making them take my salary. I also want Joba Chamberlain and Brett Gardner. My thoughts are a Floyd + Teahen or Pierre for the two of them. Someone call tell me it is or isn't fair, but that is what I would, at a minimum, ask for.

 

I'd also trade Edwin for Joba/Gardner.

 

Note: I'm not saying the Yanks do this, but s***, if they feel they have a gun to there head, why not try.

yeah they are feeling pretty s***ty now, so the Sox could get over-market value for a pitcher because of the Yankees' desperation. Floyd in New York, however, would be a disaster, IMO. I am not sure how he would handle NY pressure. But I would love Gardner, he is Juan Pierre x 100.

[Chisoxfn]

I think if the Sox could move Buehrle and his contract, that works too. Either way I see a lot of possibilities between a Floyd or Jackson that could make sense. The key is the Sox would still have to spin for another pitcher. Whether that is Garza or even a Grienke, I don't know.

 

Because moving one of Floyd/Jackson for Joba/Gardner is going to open a whole in the rotation while filling a hole in our bullpen and freeing up some salary. Offensively we improve as well.

[Balta1701]

So are we to believe that Lee took less money to play for the Phillies, or that all the "leaks" in the media were planted there by his agent.

I think it's pretty clear that he spurned a higher offer from the Yanks.

[103 mph screwball]

I would be shocked if KW didn't at least give Cashman a call and try to get "creative". Sox want to move salary to fill holes and have high priced pitching. The Yanks have endless cash, need pitching, and lost out on Lee. This could be interesting.

 

If I'm the White Sox and the Yankees want a pitcher from me, I'm making them take my salary. I also want Joba Chamberlain and Brett Gardner. My thoughts are a Floyd + Teahen or Pierre for the two of them. Someone call tell me it is or isn't fair, but that is what I would, at a minimum, ask for.

 

I'd also trade Edwin for Joba/Gardner.

 

Note: I'm not saying the Yanks do this, but s***, if they feel they have a gun to there head, why not try.

 

[beautox]

I think if the Sox could move Buehrle and his contract, that works too. Either way I see a lot of possibilities between a Floyd or Jackson that could make sense. The key is the Sox would still have to spin for another pitcher. Whether that is Garza or even a Grienke, I don't know.

 

Because moving one of Floyd/Jackson for Joba/Gardner is going to open a whole in the rotation while filling a hole in our bullpen and freeing up some salary. Offensively we improve as well.

 

I'm with you; put the yanks over the coals. If we're not getting a major league piece and some salary relief {pierre or teahen}; i want two of the three "b's" coming back {Banuelos, Betances or Brackman} and Romine. Yes i realize thats a ridiculous asking price; but the yanks are backed against a wall, i cant see TB giving them Garza and ZG will not goto NY; and lastly they've already tried Pavano before.

[BigSqwert]

I'm with you; put the yanks over the coals. If we're not getting a major league piece and some salary relief {pierre or teahen}; i want two of the three "b's" coming back {Banuelos, Betances or Brackman} and Romine. Yes i realize thats a ridiculous asking price; but the yanks are backed against a wall, i cant see TB giving them Garza and ZG will not goto NY; and lastly they've already tried Pavano before.

I could see them as willing trade partners. After the Swisher deal they may feel like they owe us one.

[witesoxfan]

I could see them as willing trade partners. After the Swisher deal they may feel like they owe us one.

 

Of course, after the Contreras deal, the Swisher deal may have been what the White Sox owed.

Edited December 14, 2010 by witesoxfan

[ThunderBolt]

I expressed sentiments earlier in this thread comparing the Phillies to the Yankees and Red Sox, and then I remembered they actually acquired Oswalt and Halladay via trade from assets they built up in-house. So, yeah, not as bad as I made them to be. Frankly, really impressive.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

What about this---

 

Sox trade:

Danks

Viciedo

Mitchell

Sox get:

Garza

Holland

Beltre

 

Texas trades:

Holland

Beltre

Texas gets:

Danks

 

TB trades:

Garza

TB gets:

Mitchell

Viciedo

 

For TB Mitchell + Viciedo is great value for Garza. Holland + Beltre is a lot for Texas, but fair value IMO because Danks is worth a ton, and with Danks being a hometown guy and Texas having money they'd probably give up a little more knowing they've got a good chance of extending him. For the Sox, Danks to Garza is a downgrade, but not a HUGE one, and this is made up by swapping Mitchell for Beltre, who IMO is a better prospect. Viciedo for Holland straight up is a nice, fair deal that makes Mark replaceable. By doing this deal the Sox save a very small amount of money - but this would enable a Buehrle to the Yankees for salary relief deal to take place, if the Yankees would agree to that.

 

From there the salary relief could be used a number of ways, but my favorite might be trying to get either Beltran or KRod from the Mets by offering a prospect or two and taking on salary for Teahen and/or Pierre.

[Balta1701]

You know...even if a deal like that is a fair deal for everyone involved...it's just so complicated that I couldn't possibly fathom it happening. There's so many veto points, management, ownership on each team, the players themselves, contracts, etc.

[chw42]

yeah they are feeling pretty s***ty now, so the Sox could get over-market value for a pitcher because of the Yankees' desperation. Floyd in New York, however, would be a disaster, IMO. I am not sure how he would handle NY pressure. But I would love Gardner, he is Juan Pierre x 100.

 

I had that thought in the back of my mind ever since the rumor yesterday.

 

He might go Dontrelle Willis.

[witesoxfan]

What about this---

 

Sox trade:

Danks

Viciedo

Mitchell

Sox get:

Garza

Holland

Beltre

 

Texas trades:

Holland

Beltre

Texas gets:

Danks

 

TB trades:

Garza

TB gets:

Mitchell

Viciedo

 

For TB Mitchell + Viciedo is great value for Garza. Holland + Beltre is a lot for Texas, but fair value IMO because Danks is worth a ton, and with Danks being a hometown guy and Texas having money they'd probably give up a little more knowing they've got a good chance of extending him. For the Sox, Danks to Garza is a downgrade, but not a HUGE one, and this is made up by swapping Mitchell for Beltre, who IMO is a better prospect. Viciedo for Holland straight up is a nice, fair deal that makes Mark replaceable. By doing this deal the Sox save a very small amount of money - but this would enable a Buehrle to the Yankees for salary relief deal to take place, if the Yankees would agree to that.

 

From there the salary relief could be used a number of ways, but my favorite might be trying to get either Beltran or KRod from the Mets by offering a prospect or two and taking on salary for Teahen and/or Pierre.

 

Personally, I do think the downgrade from Danks to Garza is a huge one. I think Danks is a #1-2 caliber starting pitcher, whereas I think Garza is anywhere from a #2-4. Holland is a good piece, but one that still needs development, and Beltre is still probably 2-3 years away. If you are going to trade Danks, trade him for good MLB parts or trade him for minor league parts...going basically straight down the middle just doesn't seem to work because I don't think the Sox are really getting fair value.