Bobby Jenks to the Red Sox

[southsider2k5]

no action taken by the team would indicate Oney not expressing them his cocerns. The 2 were not buddies, at least for a couple of years. Oney likes to name drop on twitter all the time. He has never mentioned hanging with Jenks.

 

Action on what exactly?

[southsider2k5]

So why is it that people listen to Oney Guillen? How is it that he has any audience at all? Why does Jow Cowley use him as a source?

 

The same reason that people listen to Joe Cowley. They are really good at stirring it up with not a whole lot of substance. They are essentially tabloids onto themselves. People eat that up.

[iamshack]

The same reason that people listen to Joe Cowley. They are really good at stirring it up with not a whole lot of substance. They are essentially tabloids onto themselves. People eat that up.

No. Joe Cowley is the White Sox beat writer. Who the f*** is Oney Guillen?

 

Oh yeah, he's Ozzie Guillen's son.

 

Oh, and Ozzie's not responsible for him either.

[Dick Allen]

Action on what exactly?

Getting an employee help with a problem.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Dick Allen

[sircaffey]

Two things change that situation. Number one he spent time as a member of the White Sox organization as an employee, and he had access to the team that way. He also apparently had a social relationship with Jenks outside of the clubhouse. If his information comes from one of those two sources, Ozzie isn't responsible for it at all.

I agree with that. Now, going forward, now that Oney is not employed, Ozzie assumes responsibility for the information that he subjects Oney to. After all, it's Ozzie's and ONLY Ozzie's choice for Oney to be around the team.

[southsider2k5]

Getting an employee help with a problem.

 

Stop and think about that for a minute. Do you really think the Sox would have come out and said that they are sending Jenks to rehab publicly, without there being a public incident to necessitate that information being public? We have no idea how the Sox dealt with Jenks's problems.

[southsider2k5]

No. Joe Cowley is the White Sox beat writer. Who the f*** is Oney Guillen?

 

Oh yeah, he's Ozzie Guillen's son.

 

Oh, and Ozzie's not responsible for him either.

There are some mighty big assumptions being made here. The assumption seems to be that Ozzie is telling Oney this stuff outside of the realm of the Sox clubhouse. If Oney's information came from either his work, or his social relationships with Jenks or even other players, then no Ozzie isn't responsible for Oney. If Ozzie is feeding this information to Oney, then yes Ozzie is responsible for Oney.

[Dick Allen]

Stop and think about that for a minute. Do you really think the Sox would have come out and said that they are sending Jenks to rehab publicly, without there being a public incident to necessitate that information being public? We have no idea how the Sox dealt with Jenks's problems.

According to Oney's tweets, they swept his problems under the rug. Also according to Oney there WAS a public incident with the clubbie. The team managed to keep it quiet. The Sox could have easily sent Jenks to rehab during the offseason and kept it quiet, but we know that never happened because if it did, Oney would have tweeted it.

[southsider2k5]

According to Oney's tweets, they swept his problems under the rug. Also according to Oney there WAS a public incident with the clubbie. The team managed to keep it quiet. The Sox could have easily sent Jenks to rehab during the offseason and kept it quiet, but we know that never happened because if it did, Oney would have tweeted it.

 

I'm sure there is more there that we don't know about. Hell there is plenty there that Oney probably doesn't even know about.

[Dick Allen]

I'm sure there is more there that we don't know about. Hell there is plenty there that Oney probably doesn't even know about.

Of course there is, but you are trying to protect Ozzie using Oney's claims, after he's been grilled about how bad this makes his dad look, that he didn't get the information from his dad, but from personal experience. He did say he was not present during the crying in the manager's office. So we don't know who told him about it, but Ozzie would be the prime suspect. Oney also says he doesn't discuss anything about the White Sox with his dad. Where would you put the odds of that actually being true?

 

Again, I don't think Ozzie should be fired over this, and none of us really know if this incident will have no impact or a huge impact on the White Sox clubhouse. I just think its time Ozzie shuts his son up. And we all know he can if he wants.

[iamshack]

There are some mighty big assumptions being made here. The assumption seems to be that Ozzie is telling Oney this stuff outside of the realm of the Sox clubhouse. If Oney's information came from either his work, or his social relationships with Jenks or even other players, then no Ozzie isn't responsible for Oney. If Ozzie is feeding this information to Oney, then yes Ozzie is responsible for Oney.

I'm not ignoring this at all.

 

I'm saying that any relationships or information or employment with the White Sox or White Sox players comes completely as a result of his father's position with the White Sox. Oney would never be hanging out with White Sox players if his father was not their manager. Oney would never know any private information about White Sox players or otherwise if his father was not the manager of the White Sox. Oney would never have been given a position with the White Sox unless his father was the manager of the Chicago White Sox. To pretend otherwise is just being stubborn.

 

At the end of the day, you want to talk about technicalities or legalities or whether he was employed by the team or knows this or that because of his friendships with the players, that doesn't matter. What does matter is Ozzie's kid is out spouting his mouth off like a fire hose out of control and the Organization is going to get sick and tired of it. And then Ozzie will be fired.

[nitetrain8601]

I just read this whole thing and Rock, I got to strongly disagree with you. It's Ozzie's job to make sure Oney or any of his other sons don't put White Sox business out there. Now you may say, "He didn't get that info from Ozzie, he and Bobby hung out together and Bobby told him everything.". For some things that were said, that may be true. But I doubt Bobby said "Oh yeah Oney, so I went into your old man's office and cried my eyes out with my personal problems." A meeting between manager and player is only something those two should know what was spoke about. Oney seems to know way more detail than Bobby simply saying "I talked to Oz earlier".

 

It's quite easy to tell that Oney knew information that only the organization should know, not a family member of the org. And most importantly, it's quite easy to tell, a lot of the information came from Ozzie himself.

[Dick Allen]

The irony here is when Ozzie Guillen left the White Sox as a player, what he said made what Jenks said almost a complement. If twitter was around then there also was some stuff the organization could have spilled about Ozzie that wasn't very flattering. I'm not a Berstein fan by any stretch, but his talking logic with Oney was spot on IMO, (although I am being a bit hypocritical as I laughed at the tweets as they were happening).

[southsider2k5]

I'm not ignoring this at all.

 

I'm saying that any relationships or information or employment with the White Sox or White Sox players comes completely as a result of his father's position with the White Sox. Oney would never be hanging out with White Sox players if his father was not their manager. Oney would never know any private information about White Sox players or otherwise if his father was not the manager of the White Sox. Oney would never have been given a position with the White Sox unless his father was the manager of the Chicago White Sox. To pretend otherwise is just being stubborn.

 

At the end of the day, you want to talk about technicalities or legalities or whether he was employed by the team or knows this or that because of his friendships with the players, that doesn't matter. What does matter is Ozzie's kid is out spouting his mouth off like a fire hose out of control and the Organization is going to get sick and tired of it. And then Ozzie will be fired.

 

There is a major difference there. If it came about because of his being employed here, that is the White Sox fault. Even if Ozzie asked for Oney to get a job, the team agreed to it. It is the same idea as Ozzie not wanting Thome around after last year. Kenny is the ultimate authority on the roster, just like someone further up the chain is responsible for having Oney hired and fired. It doesn't matter who his father is, or isn't, in that situation. If this came out of Ozzie talking to Oney, then it is Ozzie's fault, and Ozzie deserves to be held accountable for that, just like anyone else in the real world. If the organization feels this is big enough to fire Ozzie for, and this came about because Ozzie fed Oney the information, I have no problem with Ozzie getting fired for it. I'm just not willing to excuse people for their share of responsibility, if it is there.

[iamshack]

There is a major difference there. If it came about because of his being employed here, that is the White Sox fault. Even if Ozzie asked for Oney to get a job, the team agreed to it. It is the same idea as Ozzie not wanting Thome around after last year. Kenny is the ultimate authority on the roster, just like someone further up the chain is responsible for having Oney hired and fired. It doesn't matter who his father is, or isn't, in that situation. If this came out of Ozzie talking to Oney, then it is Ozzie's fault, and Ozzie deserves to be held accountable for that, just like anyone else in the real world. If the organization feels this is big enough to fire Ozzie for, and this came about because Ozzie fed Oney the information, I have no problem with Ozzie getting fired for it. I'm just not willing to excuse people for their share of responsibility, if it is there.

I understand if you want to say technically the White Sox bear some of the blame for employing the idiot at all. Thus my second paragraph in my last post. But in the grand scheme of things, do you really think they care? After everything Ozzie has put them through, eventually, they are going to decide to just wash their hands of him. And this will be another one of the strikes against him, whether you want to say technically or philosophically or morally or whatever, it is partially they're own fault.

 

But for the White Sox continuing to employ Ozzie Guillen as their manager, all this soap opera nonsense would not be happening. But for the White Sox continuing to employ Ozzie Guillen as their manager, Oney Guillen would not be out spouting off about the private matters of their players.

 

Eventually Jerry and the rest of the decision makers, will say "But for Ozzie Guillen being the manager of the White Sox...."and then he'll be gone.

[southsider2k5]

I understand if you want to say technically the White Sox bear some of the blame for employing the idiot at all. Thus my second paragraph in my last post. But in the grand scheme of things, do you really think they care? After everything Ozzie has put them through, eventually, they are going to decide to just wash their hands of him. And this will be another one of the strikes against him, whether you want to say technically or philosophically or morally or whatever, it is partially they're own fault.

 

But for the White Sox continuing to employ Ozzie Guillen as their manager, all this soap opera nonsense would not be happening. But for the White Sox continuing to employ Ozzie Guillen as their manager, Oney Guillen would not be out spouting off about the private matters of their players.

 

Eventually Jerry and the rest of the decision makers, will say "But for Ozzie Guillen being the manager of the White Sox...."and then he'll be gone.

 

If the Sox really cared that much about the off of the field stuff, Ozzie would have been fired along time ago. This isn't the first time, nor the biggest time. They also would have fired Kenny Williams a long time ago, if the off of the field drama bothered them that much.. The Sox will wash their hands of Guillen (and Williams for that matter) when he doesn't win games, unless some really crazy happens. No italics needed.

[Balta1701]

If the Sox really cared that much about the off of the field stuff, Ozzie would have been fired along time ago. This isn't the first time, nor the biggest time. They also would have fired Kenny Williams a long time ago, if the off of the field drama bothered them that much.. The Sox will wash their hands of Guillen (and Williams for that matter) when he doesn't win games, unless some really crazy happens. No italics needed.

The other side of it though...even the teams who bring in safe, normal, boring managers don't exactly have calm, cool, and collected seasons.

 

I'll give you an example. Jerry Manuel. He's about as boring of a manger as you can find. His closer beat up his father in law or something like that, the whole team dismantled itself, etc.

[iamshack]

If the Sox really cared that much about the off of the field stuff, Ozzie would have been fired along time ago. This isn't the first time, nor the biggest time. They also would have fired Kenny Williams a long time ago, if the off of the field drama bothered them that much.. The Sox will wash their hands of Guillen (and Williams for that matter) when he doesn't win games, unless some really crazy happens. No italics needed.

No, the italics were needed, because you weren't understanding the point.

 

First you accused me of ignoring something, then you ignored a point addressing the very point you made again in your post responding to me.

 

With Ozzie, it's a repetitive pattern, and eventually enough will be enough. You want to justify in your mind his family making the private issues of a player public, you go ahead and do so. This doesn't happen elsewhere around the league. Only here. I'm one of Ozzie's biggest supporters, and I often get called a homer, and if this offends me this much, well, that will probably tell you what the average fan thinks of it.

[southsider2k5]

No, the italics were needed, because you weren't understanding the point.

 

First you accused me of ignoring something, then you ignored a point addressing the very point you made again in your post responding to me.

 

With Ozzie, it's a repetitive pattern, and eventually enough will be enough. You want to justify in your mind his family making the private issues of a player public, you go ahead and do so. This doesn't happen elsewhere around the league. Only here. I'm one of Ozzie's biggest supporters, and I often get called a homer, and if this offends me this much, well, that will probably tell you what the average fan thinks of it.

 

It has nothing to do with justifying it, or not. There seems to be this feeling that this is some massive event, yet it is pretty easy to argue this isn't close to the worst that has happened around Ozzie. There is also the thought that Ozzie has to fix this. My point is very simple... it goes back to the old adage about giving a monkey a gun. The simple point of view is to blame Ozzie.

[retro1983hat]

I have really enjoyed reading about this debate. The one thing I don't think is debatable is that Oney seems like a pretty big douchebag. Your dad is in the spotlight, negatively sometimes because of his own actions. Criticism comes with the territory son. Keep the pacifer in your mouth and STFU!

[iamshack]

It has nothing to do with justifying it, or not. There seems to be this feeling that this is some massive event, yet it is pretty easy to argue this isn't close to the worst that has happened around Ozzie. There is also the thought that Ozzie has to fix this. My point is very simple... it goes back to the old adage about giving a monkey a gun. The simple point of view is to blame Ozzie.

Third paragraph, first line of the post you are responding to. I'm saying it's a repetitive pattern.

[lostfan]

It's not "dissing" Bobby to point that out he was wrong for what he originally said, and to point out that he failed to do his part the last couple of years with the Sox and is being ungrateful for all the chances he was given and the support he was shown. I'm not one of those people that's going to use 2005 as a trump card for recent things that matter right now, the way old Bears fans do about 1985. It's just that Oney is so far in the wrong he almost makes it look irrelevant.

Edited December 31, 2010 by lostfan

[Dick Allen]

It has nothing to do with justifying it, or not. There seems to be this feeling that this is some massive event, yet it is pretty easy to argue this isn't close to the worst that has happened around Ozzie. There is also the thought that Ozzie has to fix this. My point is very simple... it goes back to the old adage about giving a monkey a gun. The simple point of view is to blame Ozzie.

So you are of the opinion that Ozzie, who has provided Oney with all these opportunities to be in the clubhouse and hang out with players, should not have to put his foot down and tell his son enough is enough because Oney is a 24 or 25 year old punk and should make his own decisions? Even if Oney's decisions can ultimately hurt Ozzie and the White Sox?

 

I think there is where you blame Ozzie. When you are a juvenile and do something wrong, your parents do take some responsibility. Oney is an adult by calendar only. You listened to the interview, there are plenty of 15 year olds far more mature that him. Its time Ozzie realizes that and puts Oney in his place. He needs to be a dad, even if it means Oney will be mad at him for a while, instead of just being best friends. I suppose maybe behind the scenes he is doing something, we probably will never know but publicly scolding Oney would go a long way IMO, and if Oney continues like he's been continuing, it points to really Ozzie doing nothing about it. If he doesn't do anything, its not like Oney is going to stop with the Twitter. And you know chances are a rough patch or two happen every season. Face it, even in 2005 things got a little hairy for a while. When is the next twittergate? Its coming unless the only person who can stop it steps up to do so. Ozzie isn't going to get fired because of this, but failure to pick up and option or another extension could easily be in play if the White Sox decide they have had enough of all the baggage Ozzie brings, at least one piece of luggage, Oney. Of course if that day happens, Oney's tweets will once again be front page news. Again.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Dick Allen

[retro1983hat]

I don't care about the fact they are all adults and the kids can say what they want and should have no bearing on what happens with Ozzie.

 

If your dad worked for let's say Motorola and was one of the high ranking, high profile officers.

And you decided to do nothing but publicly criticize Motorola. Including telling secrets that were only known to those in the board room. Don't you think at some point, the CEO or someone would tell you to tell your kid to lay off.

 

Oh and I lost a lot of respect for Cowley. He is coddling his video game buddy Oney and also protecting perhaps one of his inside sources. I am starting to feel like the Guillen kids are the Kardashians. No real usefulness other than to be leeches ands live off their parents' fame.

[Balta1701]

If your dad worked for let's say Motorola and was one of the high ranking, high profile officers.

And you decided to do nothing but publicly criticize Motorola. Including telling secrets that were only known to those in the board room. Don't you think at some point, the CEO or someone would tell you to tell your kid to lay off.

You've got to add some extra details there though.

 

Let's say the secrets you leaked were to smear an ex-employee. And that Ex-employee had been going around bashing your company.

 

In that case, the CEO might well be telling the guy to keep it up, as long as there's enough distance between him and the leak that he has plausible deniability.