Bobby Jenks to the Red Sox

[iamshack]

Which is why I think the Sox kept trying to give him pitches with movement to go off. They also walked away completely from Jenks. Those are two pretty big indictments of where they think Bobby is.

They really had no other choice. They had to non-tender him or pay him in the range of $7-8 million dollars next year. The two parties did agree to speak again once Bobby went through the free agency process, but the idea in Jenks' camp that he was worth $7-8 million, and the fact that he got $6 million from Boston pretty much prevented that from happening.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

If Jenks dedicates himself, he can still be pretty effective and could still close. Maybe this whole thing works as a wake up call to him. Its not just the effort you put in when you are in the game that count. Bobby has to prepare himself better before he hits the field. I still think he's on borrowed time, but I didn't think he'd last this long.

 

I believe KW was frustrated with his weight. I think the injuries, and believe the Sox concur, have a lot to do with his conditioning. The leg problems can probably be solved by eating salads and doing some exercising. The elbow issue I think totally scared off the Sox.

[southsider2k5]

They really had no other choice. They had to non-tender him or pay him in the range of $7-8 million dollars next year. The two parties did agree to speak again once Bobby went through the free agency process, but the idea in Jenks' camp that he was worth $7-8 million, and the fact that he got $6 million from Boston pretty much prevented that from happening.

 

They agreed to speak, and the Sox had no interest even a way reduced rate. That is telling to me.

[iamshack]

They agreed to speak, and the Sox had no interest even a way reduced rate. That is telling to me.

Ahh, that was not my understanding of it. I think they would have had interest in $3 million or so, which certainly speaks volumes as to their opinion of him, but is also a product of their financial situation right now.

 

Had he been lights-out last season, I think we would still be looking at him in a Red Sox uniform this season, whether because we non-tendered him or because we signed him and then traded him to get a few warm bodies back.

[southsider2k5]

Ahh, that was not my understanding of it. I think they would have had interest in $3 million or so, which certainly speaks volumes as to their opinion of him, but is also a product of their financial situation right now.

 

Had he been lights-out last season, I think we would still be looking at him in a Red Sox uniform this season, whether because we non-tendered him or because we signed him and then traded him to get a few warm bodies back.

 

The money was there is you believe that the Sox had an offer to Wood that wasn't mutually exclusive to Crain's.

 

If the Sox thought he was really worth any kind of a contract, they would have held on to him and traded him for sure. They would have offered arbit at least.

[iamshack]

The money was there is you believe that the Sox had an offer to Wood that wasn't mutually exclusive to Crain's.

 

If the Sox thought he was really worth any kind of a contract, they would have held on to him and traded him for sure. They would have offered arbit at least.

Money in the range of $6 million? It's not my belief that they have any intention of offering any relief pitcher that much money, let alone Wood or Jenks.

 

As for offering him arbitration, he could have been awarded something around $8 million, and then what? I'm not sure they were certain there were any takers at that price. In fact, it's pretty evident there would not have been, considering he just signed for $6 million. What you're arguing is someone would have been willing to pay $8 million and give up players for him? I think that would have been a huge risk, one certainly the Sox were not willing to take.

[southsider2k5]

Money in the range of $6 million? It's not my belief that they have any intention of offering any relief pitcher that much money, let alone Wood or Jenks.

 

As for offering him arbitration, he could have been awarded something around $8 million, and then what? I'm not sure they were certain there were any takers at that price. In fact, it's pretty evident there would not have been, considering he just signed for $6 million. What you're arguing is someone would have been willing to pay $8 million and give up players for him? I think that would have been a huge risk, one certainly the Sox were not willing to take.

 

That's the whole point.

[iamshack]

That's the whole point.

The point is that Jenks did not fit into the White Sox' plan because of many factors. I don't think it was just a result of their opinion of him as a pitcher, but rather, the general market value of pitchers with closing experience, their current financial situation, his value on the trade market, as well as what they thought of his skill level today. It's not as if they have swollen coffers and just decided to let him walk away.

[southsider2k5]

The point is that Jenks did not fit into the White Sox' plan because of many factors. I don't think it was just a result of their opinion of him as a pitcher, but rather, the general market value of pitchers with closing experience, their current financial situation, his value on the trade market, as well as what they thought of his skill level today. It's not as if they have swollen coffers and just decided to let him walk away.

 

The financial situation one doesn't fit if you believe contention that the Sox had something like $7.5 million in offers out at the sametime to both Wood and Crain. If the Sox really believed in Jenks, they could have offered him the $6 million that Boston did, and made it publicly known that they tried to keep him. They could have even offered him a little less as a "hometown discount" and still made the contention of trying to keep him, if their opinion was he was worth keeping.

[iamshack]

The financial situation one doesn't fit if you believe contention that the Sox had something like $7.5 million in offers out at the sametime to both Wood and Crain. If the Sox really believed in Jenks, they could have offered him the $6 million that Boston did, and made it publicly known that they tried to keep him. They could have even offered him a little less as a "hometown discount" and still made the contention of trying to keep him, if their opinion was he was worth keeping.

Well I'm not certain that they did.

 

But even if they did, they'd be getting two pitchers in that scenario rather than one.

 

I think this is probably also a scenario wherein the two sides were sort of ready to part ways just because of the wear on everyone involved. Not even necessarily a performance-related issue, but just because of the personalities.

[Balta1701]

Well I'm not certain that they did.

 

But even if they did, they'd be getting two pitchers in that scenario rather than one.

 

I think this is probably also a scenario wherein the two sides were sort of ready to part ways just because of the wear on everyone involved. Not even necessarily a performance-related issue, but just because of the personalities.

You really don't think the inconsistent performances of the last season mattered more than the personalities?

 

I doubt they'd have cared one iota how out of shape Jenks came to camp every year if he put up an ERA of 1.50 each year.

[iamshack]

You really don't think the inconsistent performances of the last season mattered more than the personalities?

 

I doubt they'd have cared one iota how out of shape Jenks came to camp every year if he put up an ERA of 1.50 each year.

Clearly they wouldn't have cared had he done that. But you see teams lose interest in players all the time because of players and coaches getting fed up with each other. Jerks' lack of accountability probably led to this result just as much as the actual performance issues. Add to that the salary expectations, the financial position of the team, and you get one team's trash being another team's treasure.

 

I can't guarantee it, but my guess is the White Sox don't believe Jenks is washed up.

[Balta1701]

I can't guarantee it, but my guess is the White Sox don't believe Jenks is washed up.

You know, I don't think he's "Washed up" either, is arm still can pop 98, but I'm just not sure that he has any idea how to harness it anymore. We'll see if a new pitching coach can do it.

[WCSox]

He's still got 3 potential plus pitches (Hey! Alliteration!), and Curt Young is a pretty solid pitching coach. To say that everything points to Bobby as being a "mop-up guy" seems to me to be a bit of an exaggeration.

 

It is, but only a slight one. Bobby's WHIP was actually higher than Linebrink's last year.

 

The Red Sox showing him $12 million obviously points to the fact that they believe he can be an elite setup man or a potential closer.

 

It shows me that Theo Epstein (1) has way too much money to play with and (2) seems more interested in placating his team's fan base and media with a recognizable veteran than acquiring somebody who is likely to put up a $6M performance in 2011. Bobby's been trending downward for the past three seasons (with his last two being below-average), and it's difficult to believe that Epstein expects to get anything near "elite" out of Jenks. I'd imagine that Epstein would be thrilled if Jenks put up a 1.27 WHIP as a setup man next year. This appears to be as much about PR as shoring up the Red Sox bullpen.

 

Edited December 18, 2010 by WCSox

[iamshack]

It is, but only a slight one. Bobby's WHIP was actually higher than Linebrink's last year.

 

 

 

It shows me that Theo Epstein (1) has way too much money to play with and (2) seems more interested in placating his team's fan base and media with a recognizable veteran than acquiring somebody who is likely to put up a $6M performance in 2011. Bobby's been trending downward for the past three seasons (with his last two being below-average), and it's difficult to believe that Epstein expects to get anything near "elite" out of Jenks. I'd imagine that Epstein would be thrilled if Jenks put up a 1.27 WHIP as a setup man next year. This appears to be as much about PR as shoring up the Red Sox bullpen.

No offense, but I think we should probably defer a bit to the Red Sox brain trust a bit here.

 

You certainly may be right, but only time will tell.

[Jordan4life_2007]

It shows me that Theo Epstein (1) has way too much money to play with and (2) seems more interested in placating his team's fan base and media with a recognizable veteran than acquiring somebody who is likely to put up a $6M performance in 2011. Bobby's been trending downward for the past three seasons (with his last two being below-average), and it's difficult to believe that Epstein expects to get anything near "elite" out of Jenks. I'd imagine that Epstein would be thrilled if Jenks put up a 1.27 WHIP as a setup man next year. This appears to be as much about PR as shoring up the Red Sox bullpen.

 

There's not a team in baseball more Sabermetric-centric than the Red Sox. I'm sure all they see is the 10.42 K/9, 2.59 FIP and the 2.62 xFIP. Virtually ignoring all the other warning signs. They could be right and he could really produce. But I don't believe this is just a PR move.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Jordan4life

[WCSox]

No offense, but I think we should probably defer a bit to the Red Sox brain trust a bit here.

 

Meh, teams make moves for all kinds of reasons. Pat Gillick is no dummy, yet he's the guy who moved two really good pitching prospects for a clearly declining (and expensive) Freddy Garcia a few years ago.

 

I agree that Bobby will be a lot closer to a semi-decent setup man than a Linebrink-like gas can. I wish him well, and hope that he surprises me.

 

[iamshack]

Meh, teams make moves for all kinds of reasons. Pat Gillick is no dummy, yet he's the guy who moved two really good pitching prospects for a clearly declining (and expensive) Freddy Garcia a few years ago.

 

I agree that Bobby will be a lot closer to a semi-decent setup man than a Linebrink-like gas can. I wish him well, and hope that he surprises me.

Well considering they signed Crawford and traded for AGon, I'm not really buying that they needed to sign Jenks to excite the fans...

[WCSox]

Well considering they signed Crawford and traded for AGon, I'm not really buying that they needed to sign Jenks to excite the fans...

 

Crawford and AGon can't pitch, and whether Papelbon still can at this point is debatable. So I think that there is a need on Epstein's part to show people that he's "doing something" about the bullpen. I don't know if that's what's actually happening or not, but that logic makes more sense than signing Jenks over somebody like Guerrier for the same price.

 

 

[iamshack]

Crawford and AGon can't pitch, and whether Papelbon still can at this point is debatable. So I think that there is a need on Epstein's part to show people that he's "doing something" about the bullpen. I don't know if that's what's actually happening or not, but that logic makes more sense than signing Jenks over somebody like Guerrier for the same price.

Fair point.

 

But as J4L points out, there is probably a method to their madness.

 

I'm not particularly saber-oriented, but I believe there are many that believe Guerrier has been lucky, according to his FIP, while Jenks has been unlucky. They're probably gambling on a correction.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Crawford and AGon can't pitch, and whether Papelbon still can at this point is debatable. So I think that there is a need on Epstein's part to show people that he's "doing something" about the bullpen. I don't know if that's what's actually happening or not, but that logic makes more sense than signing Jenks over somebody like Guerrier for the same price.

 

Oh c'mon now. Papelboner makes me sick. He had a down year and might get drastically overpaid real soon. But can he still pitch being up for debate? Let's not get crazy now.

[WCSox]

Oh c'mon now. Papelboner makes me sick. He had a down year and might get drastically overpaid real soon. But can he still pitch being up for debate? Let's not get crazy now.

 

I'm not suggesting that his career is over or anything crazy like that, but he's not exactly a lock to put up Rivera-like numbers from here on out. And that's pretty much what they expect over there.

[witesoxfan]

It is, but only a slight one. Bobby's WHIP was actually higher than Linebrink's last year.

 

 

 

It shows me that Theo Epstein (1) has way too much money to play with and (2) seems more interested in placating his team's fan base and media with a recognizable veteran than acquiring somebody who is likely to put up a $6M performance in 2011. Bobby's been trending downward for the past three seasons (with his last two being below-average), and it's difficult to believe that Epstein expects to get anything near "elite" out of Jenks. I'd imagine that Epstein would be thrilled if Jenks put up a 1.27 WHIP as a setup man next year. This appears to be as much about PR as shoring up the Red Sox bullpen.

 

I think you are very, very wrong on pretty much all accounts.

 

First of all, using Jenks' WHIP compared to Linebrink's isn't fair to Jenks. Jenks was pitching in much more high leverage situations and was thus faced with much, much better hitters. If Linebrink ever pitched when the Sox were within 3 runs either way, it was almost always due to other relievers being gassed/injured.

 

Secondly, Theo Epstein is using the statistics provided to him, which suggest that Jenks got unlucky last year. I saw enough of Jenks to know that he got the s*** hit out of him, but that seriously happens to relievers all the time - they will have a year where everything gets hit hard. Sure, he has the money to sign Jenks to that type of deal, but he believes that Jenks still has great stuff and also probably believes that the Red Sox coaching staff can correct his problems.

 

The Red Sox aren't exactly looking to make a PR move at this point in time either. They signed Carl Crawford and traded for Adrian Gonzalez this offseason. Do you really think that Bobby f***ing Jenks is going to be brought in because of PR at this point in time? Just think about that for a second. The publicity behind signing Bobby Jenks compared to that of Crawford/Gonzalez is about 1/28 the significance. Red Sox fans don't give a s*** that they signed Bobby Jenks.

 

Bobby Jenks was signed because Epstein and company believe he can be a great pitcher out of the pen for them. Whether that's true or not is something we'll have to wait to see, but suggesting that Epstein did this for any other reason besides his belief that Jenks will be good is simply wrong.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'm not suggesting that his career is over or anything crazy like that, but he's not exactly a lock to put up Rivera-like numbers from here on out. And that's pretty much what they expect over there.

 

There is no Mariano Rivera. He's a wonder to behold. The greatest relief pitcher to ever live. Can't hold anybody to that standard.

[WCSox]

I think you are very, very wrong on pretty much all accounts.

 

So, again, why would Epstein want two years of Jenks as a setup man, rather than three years of Guerrier for the same price? Would YOU take Bobby over Guerrier? I sure as hell wouldn't.

 

First of all, using Jenks' WHIP compared to Linebrink's isn't fair to Jenks. Jenks was pitching in much more high leverage situations and was thus faced with much, much better hitters.

 

Perhaps I'm overlooking something obvious, but this doesn't make any sense. Are you suggesting that Linebrink only faced utility players when the score was 20-3 in the 6th inning? Or are you arguing that closers always face the top/middle of the order in the 9th inning?

 

Secondly, Theo Epstein is using the statistics provided to him, which suggest that Jenks got unlucky last year. I saw enough of Jenks to know that he got the s*** hit out of him, but that seriously happens to relievers all the time - they will have a year where everything gets hit hard.

 

Jenks also got hit pretty hard in 2006 and 2009, so this isn't a new phenomenon.

 

I don't believe in prolonged luck. If you're posting a 1.28 and 1.37 WHIP as a closer over consecutive seasons, your problem isn't bad luck. It's bad pitching.

 

The Red Sox aren't exactly looking to make a PR move at this point in time either. They signed Carl Crawford and traded for Adrian Gonzalez this offseason. Do you really think that Bobby f***ing Jenks is going to be brought in because of PR at this point in time? Just think about that for a second. The publicity behind signing Bobby Jenks compared to that of Crawford/Gonzalez is about 1/28 the significance. Red Sox fans don't give a s*** that they signed Bobby Jenks.

 

Yeah, except for all of those fans and sports writers who realize that Crawford and Gonzalez can't pitch... and that pitching separates playoff teams from mediocre teams. You can say a lot about Red Sox fans, but they tend to have a better understanding of their team and the game than others. They're not Cubs fans.

Edited December 18, 2010 by WCSox