How To Beat The Twins?

[Lillian]

Acquiring the Sox killing reliever, Jesse Crain, got me thinking about what else the Sox could do to improve their chances in head to head competition with the Twins.

After all, the White Sox had a better record against the rest of the league than the Twins did last year, and no one did much better in inter league play than the Pale Hose did.

It was the complete dominance of the Twins over the Sox that kept Chicago out of the post season.

 

So, with that in mind, are there any additional, realistic moves that could still be made that might up the odds versus our division rival, or should I say 'nemesis'?

 

To begin with, many would suggest that a big part of the problem is psychological. Perhaps Kenny needs to make his next signing a good, reliable, "shrink".

But beyond Crain, and a good psychiatrist, what else would you recommend?

 

Adding a player of Dunn's caliber should help in general, but we really have no idea how he will do against the Twins.

 

Perhaps they should target a player or two with a history of playing especially well against Minnesota.

 

None of our existing starting pitchers have done very well against the Twins in their careers. Even our good pitchers, in good years, haven't had much success.

You would think that southpaws would have had the best success, with all of the Twin's left handed hitting, but neither Danks nor Buehrle has fared particularly well.

 

Some of you will appreciate this little stat. Guess who was one of our very best hitters last year against the Twins. None other than my 'favorite' player; Juan Pierre!!

He hit .333 with an OBP of .388. How about that? Put 'em in the middle of the order, whenever we face the Twins. Oh, and then you could bench him the rest of season, and use him as a pinch runner.

Seriously though, any thoughts?

Edited December 17, 2010 by Lillian

[Leonard Washington]

On the subject of Pierre, he actually led out team in "clutch factor" and led the team with a .379 AVG in high leverage situations (and he slugged .483 in high leverage situations too, ranking just above David Ortiz, Michael Young, Albert Pujols, and David Wright.......this is shocking).

 

As for Crain helping out with knowing how to beat the Twins...maybe. But I don't really think there's a secret strategy. Just play better baseball than them and you should win. I think a lot of it comes down to situational hitting...that's an area we could stand to improve upon. You don't see the Twins wasting too many leadoff doubles. I feel like we waste a lot of them. Those 1 runs that you don't get that you should have can make all the difference.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Pale Sox

[chetkincaid]

Bench clearing brawl - started by Paul Konerko charging the mound.

[southsider2k5]

Answer... Be the Yankees.

[Chi Town Sox]

Score at least one more run

[Y2HH]

IMO, the ENTIRE problem is psychological, which explains why every year the Twins destroy us and make it into the playoffs they get destroyed by any team they play, even if it's NOT the Yankees.

 

Their team pitching and hitting were marginally better than ours last year, but they somehow won just about every game they played against us in grand blowout fashion. Statistically, being that they are marginally better in every way, that should result in them being 1 or 2 games better in head to head play...but it never turns out that way, because every time the Sox play them (no matter how good the Sox are), it's like Superman playing a solid block of Kryptonite for who knows what reason.

 

Though if I had to venture a guess, the reason is that Hawk (and many others, including Ozzie Guillen in the Sox organization) gush over s***ty players like Carlos Gomez and how great he is -- when he sucks in every way possible -- not to mention build up the Twins as an invincible enemy.

 

They need to take a queue from the 1980 US Olympic Hockey Coach, Herb Brooks with the Twins. Rather than coming in and building the Russians up as an invincible team and telling them that in comparison they suck, he chipped away at the Russians, making fun of them in every way he could think of, belittling them just enough every day that their aura of invincibility was dimmed in the eyes of the players.

 

In contrast, if you ask Hawk, Ozzie, or anyone else in the Sox organization, the Twins are better than the Sox -- in every way, every single year -- so there is no point in trying.

 

This entire conversation infuriates me, and serves as a lesson in exactly how you DO NOT COACH your players into thinking their opponents are better than they are.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Y2HH

[wsgdf_2]

Bench clearing brawl - started by Paul Konerko charging the mound.

 

LOL - That would take forever.

[iamshack]

IMO, the ENTIRE problem is psychological, which explains why every year the Twins destroy us and make it into the playoffs they get destroyed by any team they play, even if it's NOT the Yankees.

 

Their team pitching and hitting were marginally better than ours last year, but they somehow won just about every game they played against us in grand blowout fashion. Statistically, being that they are marginally better in every way, that should result in them being 1 or 2 games better in head to head play...but it never turns out that way, because every time the Sox play them (no matter how good the Sox are), it's like Superman playing a solid block of Kryptonite for who knows what reason.

 

Though if I had to venture a guess, the reason is that Hawk (and many others, including Ozzie Guillen in the Sox organization) gush over s***ty players like Carlos Gomez and how great he is -- when he sucks in every way possible -- not to mention build up the Twins as an invincible enemy.

 

They need to take a queue from the 1980 US Olympic Hockey Coach, Herb Brooks with the Twins. Rather than coming in and building the Russians up as an invincible team and telling them that in comparison they suck, he chipped away at the Russians, making fun of them in every way he could think of, belittling them just enough every day that their aura of invincibility was dimmed in the eyes of the players.

 

In contrast, if you ask Hawk, Ozzie, or anyone else in the Sox organization, the Twins are better than the Sox -- in every way, every single year -- so there is no point in trying.

 

This entire conversation infuriates me, and serves as a lesson in exactly how you DO NOT COACH your players into thinking their opponents are better than they are.

That's an interesting theory. I like it!

[southsideirish71]

IMO, the ENTIRE problem is psychological, which explains why every year the Twins destroy us and make it into the playoffs they get destroyed by any team they play, even if it's NOT the Yankees.

 

Their team pitching and hitting were marginally better than ours last year, but they somehow won just about every game they played against us in grand blowout fashion. Statistically, being that they are marginally better in every way, that should result in them being 1 or 2 games better in head to head play...but it never turns out that way, because every time the Sox play them (no matter how good the Sox are), it's like Superman playing a solid block of Kryptonite for who knows what reason.

 

Though if I had to venture a guess, the reason is that Hawk (and many others, including Ozzie Guillen in the Sox organization) gush over s***ty players like Carlos Gomez and how great he is -- when he sucks in every way possible -- not to mention build up the Twins as an invincible enemy.

 

They need to take a queue from the 1980 US Olympic Hockey Coach, Herb Brooks with the Twins. Rather than coming in and building the Russians up as an invincible team and telling them that in comparison they suck, he chipped away at the Russians, making fun of them in every way he could think of, belittling them just enough every day that their aura of invincibility was dimmed in the eyes of the players.

 

In contrast, if you ask Hawk, Ozzie, or anyone else in the Sox organization, the Twins are better than the Sox -- in every way, every single year -- so there is no point in trying.

 

This entire conversation infuriates me, and serves as a lesson in exactly how you DO NOT COACH your players into thinking their opponents are better than they are.

 

Our overall strategy of how to handle the team in the 2nd half needs to be addressed. Attitude and all.

 

Post ASB strategy

 

1.) The twins are a fastball hitting team. Start them off with breaking pitches. So sick and tired of watching their pitchers throw breaking pitches on first pitch to set tone, while our guys are watching their fastball get ripped for a double in the gap.

2.) Fundamentals in the field. Throw to the cutoff man. Stop allowing the trailer to advance. The prototypical post ASB beatdown of our team involves at least one trailer advancing because our outfielders dont hit the cutoff man.

3.) Concentration. Focus on the play itself, and not the amazing ESPN highlight you are going to get. Its not the lack of a web gem, its the lack of basic fundamental defense that gets us into trouble. Don't extend the inning.

4.) When down by a few runs, a 9 run homer is not needed to hit it. ( This of course doesn't apply to Adam Dunn ) Take a pitch, have good ABs. Be a tough out. Stop rolling over on outside pitches win men on.

5.) Play aggressively. Hard slides, run the bases with purpose, and take the extra base when you can. This however does not involve bunting a player over in the 2nd inning because you think its the national league. In the American league runs are scored in bunches. Its not 1954 and you are not in the national league. You want to steal, or run 1st to 3rd sure go for it. You want to bunt in the late innings to move a man into scoring position then sure. But please think ahead. Its like chess. If you steal 2nd, that guy that you are trying to get the RBI chance might get put on first in an IBB.

6.) Speaking of stealing. Pretty much when a man is on first and there are 2 outs, Guillen is calling a steal. Its like clockwork. Stop that.

7.) And most importantly, the formula to win the division is simple. Play 500 against the good teams and beat the living piss out of your division.

Edited December 17, 2010 by southsideirish71

[SoxFan562004]

IMO, the ENTIRE problem is psychological, which explains why every year the Twins destroy us and make it into the playoffs they get destroyed by any team they play, even if it's NOT the Yankees.

 

Their team pitching and hitting were marginally better than ours last year, but they somehow won just about every game they played against us in grand blowout fashion. Statistically, being that they are marginally better in every way, that should result in them being 1 or 2 games better in head to head play...but it never turns out that way, because every time the Sox play them (no matter how good the Sox are), it's like Superman playing a solid block of Kryptonite for who knows what reason.

 

Though if I had to venture a guess, the reason is that Hawk (and many others, including Ozzie Guillen in the Sox organization) gush over s***ty players like Carlos Gomez and how great he is -- when he sucks in every way possible -- not to mention build up the Twins as an invincible enemy.

 

They need to take a queue from the 1980 US Olympic Hockey Coach, Herb Brooks with the Twins. Rather than coming in and building the Russians up as an invincible team and telling them that in comparison they suck, he chipped away at the Russians, making fun of them in every way he could think of, belittling them just enough every day that their aura of invincibility was dimmed in the eyes of the players.

 

In contrast, if you ask Hawk, Ozzie, or anyone else in the Sox organization, the Twins are better than the Sox -- in every way, every single year -- so there is no point in trying.

 

This entire conversation infuriates me, and serves as a lesson in exactly how you DO NOT COACH your players into thinking their opponents are better than they are.

great post, I agree 100%. I hate how KW and Ozzie slurp the Twins constantly. I would love to hear a report of KW and Ozzie telling the players to go out and kick their ass, enough of the praise for that team. Twins are obviously a strong org, but no need to browbeat the team and fans with it every year.

[soxrwhite]

Don't give them more than 3 outs per inning, or shoot down the Twins charter plane. Probably the three outs thing.

[3E8]

IMO, the ENTIRE problem is psychological, which explains why every year the Twins destroy us and make it into the playoffs they get destroyed by any team they play, even if it's NOT the Yankees.

 

Their team pitching and hitting were marginally better than ours last year, but they somehow won just about every game they played against us in grand blowout fashion. Statistically, being that they are marginally better in every way, that should result in them being 1 or 2 games better in head to head play...but it never turns out that way, because every time the Sox play them (no matter how good the Sox are), it's like Superman playing a solid block of Kryptonite for who knows what reason.

 

Though if I had to venture a guess, the reason is that Hawk (and many others, including Ozzie Guillen in the Sox organization) gush over s***ty players like Carlos Gomez and how great he is -- when he sucks in every way possible -- not to mention build up the Twins as an invincible enemy.

 

They need to take a queue from the 1980 US Olympic Hockey Coach, Herb Brooks with the Twins. Rather than coming in and building the Russians up as an invincible team and telling them that in comparison they suck, he chipped away at the Russians, making fun of them in every way he could think of, belittling them just enough every day that their aura of invincibility was dimmed in the eyes of the players.

 

In contrast, if you ask Hawk, Ozzie, or anyone else in the Sox organization, the Twins are better than the Sox -- in every way, every single year -- so there is no point in trying.

 

This entire conversation infuriates me, and serves as a lesson in exactly how you DO NOT COACH your players into thinking their opponents are better than they are.

 

Hawk will give praise to Twins when it is due (Mauer) and sometimes when it is not (Gomez), but he's not the problem. I feel like he wants to beat the Twins more than our players do, which is troubling. When Delmon hit AJ in the face, the person most upset was Hawk (rawlings in his earhole). The team just put their heads down and shook their heads when it happened, then we beaned Young weeks later in a meaningless game after the Twins had all but eliminated us.

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Hawk will give praise to Twins when it is due (Mauer) and sometimes when it is not (Gomez), but he's not the problem. I feel like he wants to beat the Twins more than our players do, which is troubling. When Delmon hit AJ in the face, the person most upset was Hawk (rawlings in his earhole). The team just put their heads down and shook their heads when it happened, then we beaned Young weeks later in a meaningless game after the Twins had all but eliminated us.

So much this.

 

If you take 2005 out of the picture and look at the Sox since the 3-division format began they historically tuck tail and run when under fire. 2003 was a great team, tucked and folded. 2006, tucked and folded. Could have won something in 2009 and 2010, tucked and folded. 2008 they made the playoffs winning 3 games against 3 teams in thrilling fashion - but prior toi that they lost 5 in a row (3 straight to the Twins) and were 6-13 over their last 19. The Sox just don't show the heart the Twins do.

[Eminor3rd]

Swing at the first pitch!

 

The Twins throw strikes early in the count, every single time. Guys like Dunn need to feast on this, even if it means swinging at a first pitch breaking ball that lands right in the center of the plate. Once they get ahead, they nibble and force groundballs. I think we need to square up on stuff early.

[joeynach]

You want to know how to beat the twins. There are only two ways. Either let free agency swallow up the core of their pitching staff, as this years offseason has done. Or either pound them so hard with offense early in the game that coming back is simply to big a hurdle. I mean like in the 3rd inning make it 9-0 and the feisty twins will not come back, they dont have enough power in their lineup to erase those kinds of deficits. We saw this over and over again in 2010, espeically the 2nd half, anytime the twins were either tied or down by just 1 or 2 runs in the 6th inning or later, you could usually pencil them in for a win, especially against weaker opponents without a shut down pen. So instead be up by 8 or 9 runs and u got it.

[elrockinMT]

I personally think the way to win more games then the Twins is to score more runs and usually that equates into wins

[elrockinMT]

Bench clearing brawl - started by Paul Konerko charging the mound.

 

 

Have Robin Ventura stand in for PK

[southsider2k5]

How about having the Twins play in the Metrodome during a big snow storm?

[elrockinMT]

How about having the Twins play in the Metrodome during a big snow storm?

 

 

That might work too!

[chetkincaid]

Hawk will give praise to Twins when it is due (Mauer) and sometimes when it is not (Gomez), but he's not the problem. I feel like he wants to beat the Twins more than our players do, which is troubling. When Delmon hit AJ in the face, the person most upset was Hawk (rawlings in his earhole). The team just put their heads down and shook their heads when it happened, then we beaned Young weeks later in a meaningless game after the Twins had all but eliminated us.

 

Really? They actually did hit Young? I don't even remember, but I sure as hell remember when Young hit AJ in the face and when PK was hit in the mouth, only to have Buehrle come in with his mid 80's fast ball to retaliate. Those are the things I'm talking about. If I were Ozzie. the very next twins batter would have been looking at a 100mph fastball high and tight from somebody. f*** "respecting" the twins. Respect them while you're getting ready for the playoffs and they're sitting at home in October.

[3E8]

Really? They actually did hit Young? I don't even remember, but I sure as hell remember when Young hit AJ in the face and when PK was hit in the mouth, only to have Buehrle come in with his mid 80's fast ball to retaliate.

Yes. On Sept. 14 when we were 3 games back. After Young had hit a home run earlier in the game. And now that I look at it, the HBP came on an 0-2 count, so it probably wasn't even intentional.

 

If I were Ozzie. the very next twins batter would have been looking at a 100mph fastball high and tight from somebody. f*** "respecting" the twins. Respect them while you're getting ready for the playoffs and they're sitting at home in October.

Ozzie is the guy who praised Torii Hunter after he went out of his way to give Jamie Burke a concussion. The attitude needs to come from the players themselves. I've seen benches clear for much less than what Young and Pavano did to our players last season.

[southsider2k5]

Really? They actually did hit Young? I don't even remember, but I sure as hell remember when Young hit AJ in the face and when PK was hit in the mouth, only to have Buehrle come in with his mid 80's fast ball to retaliate. Those are the things I'm talking about. If I were Ozzie. the very next twins batter would have been looking at a 100mph fastball high and tight from somebody. f*** "respecting" the twins. Respect them while you're getting ready for the playoffs and they're sitting at home in October.

 

Only no one remembers TCQ going out of his way to get up into the knees of the shortstop and roll him during a double play.

[ptatc]

IMO, the ENTIRE problem is psychological, which explains why every year the Twins destroy us and make it into the playoffs they get destroyed by any team they play, even if it's NOT the Yankees.

 

Their team pitching and hitting were marginally better than ours last year, but they somehow won just about every game they played against us in grand blowout fashion. Statistically, being that they are marginally better in every way, that should result in them being 1 or 2 games better in head to head play...but it never turns out that way, because every time the Sox play them (no matter how good the Sox are), it's like Superman playing a solid block of Kryptonite for who knows what reason.

 

Though if I had to venture a guess, the reason is that Hawk (and many others, including Ozzie Guillen in the Sox organization) gush over s***ty players like Carlos Gomez and how great he is -- when he sucks in every way possible -- not to mention build up the Twins as an invincible enemy.

 

They need to take a queue from the 1980 US Olympic Hockey Coach, Herb Brooks with the Twins. Rather than coming in and building the Russians up as an invincible team and telling them that in comparison they suck, he chipped away at the Russians, making fun of them in every way he could think of, belittling them just enough every day that their aura of invincibility was dimmed in the eyes of the players.

 

In contrast, if you ask Hawk, Ozzie, or anyone else in the Sox organization, the Twins are better than the Sox -- in every way, every single year -- so there is no point in trying.

 

This entire conversation infuriates me, and serves as a lesson in exactly how you DO NOT COACH your players into thinking their opponents are better than they are.

 

The other version could be that the Twins believe they have an advantage over the Sox because they have beaten the Sox and they have the psychological advantage not because we play down but because they play up.

The psychological advantage or disadvantage is a two way street, it doesn't always have to be that the Sox have the problem or the manager or GM screwed it up. The other team is a factor as well.

 

[qwerty]

Hawk will give praise to Twins when it is due (Mauer) and sometimes when it is not (Gomez), but he's not the problem. I feel like he wants to beat the Twins more than our players do, which is troubling. When Delmon hit AJ in the face, the person most upset was Hawk (rawlings in his earhole). The team just put their heads down and shook their heads when it happened, then we beaned Young weeks later in a meaningless game after the Twins had all but eliminated us.

 

For what it's worth, i'm very against intentionally hitting a batter in general, especially (in general being key) against the twins. Is hitting a batter intentionally worth a scored run? Several scored runs due to a rally which only happened because of the hbp? It happens far too often to dismiss the possibility. So people want to purposely put the potent twins on base when the sox already have a hard enough time winning games against them? They simply hit too well, and the sox can't beat them as is while giving them a fourth out to work with, seemingly every third inning, of every game.

 

I remember people calling for young to get hit no matter what the situation was that presented itself. Up in the game, down in the game, a tie, it was making me sick. The only way for the sox to prove their point is not as simple as hitting batters, it's as easy as they need to outplay the twins in every aspect of the game, when they face them head to head.

 

Another thing is, i can't believe all the crying and complaining this past season because of how many times the sox got hbp without ''retaliation''. They were second in baseball at getting hbp at 79, behind the brewers who had 81. The sox had the second fewest hbp's pitching with 34, only san diego had fewer with 28. This is a good thing people. Great thing even.

 

Only no one remembers TCQ going out of his way to get up into the knees of the shortstop and roll him during a double play.

 

Quentin was praised in the chat for that. We loved it.

Edited December 17, 2010 by qwerty

[southsider2k5]

Quentin was praised in the chat for that. We loved it.

 

I am glad to hear that. To me it was a play that if had happened against us, would have had everyone screaming about it being a dirty play. There was no doubt in my mind it was Carlos's way of evening up the score for the HBP.