Greinke traded to the Brewers

[Jordan4life_2007]

Word from Buster Onley is the Nationals are possibly (key word being possibly) offering up Jordan Zimmerman, Drew Storen and Danny Espinosa. That would actually be a terrific haul for KC. It's probably bulls***. So take it with a grain of salt.

[caulfield12]

Brewers, White Sox and Cardinals should all be in on this.

 

The White Sox should move Danks to the Yanks for the prospects the Royals would like and then add Viciedo or Morel.

 

A three way deal gets you around the NTC to a degree.

 

Danks is almost in the same position as Greinke (two years left on deal), except he might be an even better fit in NY because of Pettite (if he stays) and Sabathia, but that would give them an overload of lefties, perhaps.

 

Of course, for the White Sox to trade Danks and not get pitching back would be crazy.

 

I think it would take a lot more than Danks and Viciedo...and Morel simply isn't viewed as a legit starting 3B who will have a 10-15 year MLB career (with 2-3 All-Star game appearances) by the majority of other MLB scouting departments. He's kind of like the equivalent of Michael Morse in the Garcia deal, with a bit more upside because of his stellar defense at one position but serious questions about his power.

Edited December 18, 2010 by caulfield12

[Harry Chappas]

Danks is almost in the same position as Greinke (two years left on deal), except he might be an even better fit in NY because of Pettite (if he stays) and Sabathia, but that would give them an overload of lefties, perhaps.

 

Of course, for the White Sox to trade Danks and not get pitching back would be crazy.

 

I think it would take a lot more than Danks and Viciedo...and Morel simply isn't viewed as a legit starting 3B who will have a 10-15 year MLB career (with 2-3 All-Star game appearances) by the majority of other MLB scouting departments. He's kind of like the equivalent of Michael Morse in the Garcia deal, with a bit more upside because of his stellar defense at one position but serious questions about his power.

 

My point was the White Sox should try and use Danks to get the prospects to add to their own to get Greinke.

 

There is no way they should move Danks.....unless they are getting guaranteed MLB pitching back like Greinke.

 

The Yanks are really not in a position to be thinking L/R options right now.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Brewers, White Sox and Cardinals should all be in on this.

 

The White Sox should move Danks to the Yanks for the prospects the Royals would like and then add Viciedo or Morel.

 

A three way deal gets you around the NTC to a degree.

 

Brewers would be ideal. But I think their farm is lacking right now. We're not taking $26.5 million back in salary. The Cardinals might actually have a worse system than the Sox. And that's pretty damn bad.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Jordan4life

[caulfield12]

 

An executive for another club said: “I think we all know they have to trade him eventually, and it doesn’t have to be before the season, but it’d probably be easiest for everyone if it did. It’s just a matter of someone giving up what the Royals are asking for.”

 

Moore has openly discussed trading Greinke, saying he’d want high-ceiling and close-to-the-majors prospects in return, preferably some combination of starting pitching, a shortstop or center fielder. The situation is complicated by a limited no-trade clause in Greinke’s contract that includes 15 teams. It’s not clear if Greinke’s willingness to be traded means he would agree to adjust that clause.

 

Greinke’s reluctance to be part of another Royals rebuilding project has been no secret dating back to an August story in The Star when he said, among other things, “There’s no reason for me to get real excited about (the Royals’ prospects), because the chance of more than one of them making a major impact by the time my contract is up is pretty slim.”

 

The situation is becoming muddier by a growing belief that Greinke wouldn’t be fully motivated to pitch for what will probably be another losing Royals team in 2011. The thinking goes that he would perform much better for a contender next season than he would in Kansas City.

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2010/12/17/25281...l#ixzz18Tozxq9h

 

 

 

Essentially, the Royals would have been asking for Hudson (if we still had him), Beckham OR Ramirez and Mitchell/Danks (had he not been injured, and I'm doubtful he could end up as a CFer, maybe...and Danks, when he was still thought of as a Top 10 prospect.)

 

Something like that. There just doesn't seem to be a fit, and they're not going to take Jackson/Floyd/Danks. Doesn't make any sense.

[Dick Allen]

My point was the White Sox should try and use Danks to get the prospects to add to their own to get Greinke.

 

There is no way they should move Danks.....unless they are getting guaranteed MLB pitching back like Greinke.

 

The Yanks are really not in a position to be thinking L/R options right now.

Why trade Danks to get Greinke? They are under control the same amount of time with Danks being much cheaper, and except for 2009, better. And it wasn't like Danks was bad in 2009.

 

I think there are more than a couple teams that would rather have Danks than Greinke.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

If they give up that catcher Montero they probably have the ammo to get it done...but the issue is, they also want him in their lineup this year. So they'd wind up having to make themselves worse to do it at a different position, and Russell Martin isn't going to be an exciting option there right now.

 

They signed Martin with the expectation that he'll bounce back and with the intent to use him as a bridge to one of their prospects ( http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/base...kees.martin.ap/ ).

 

They have three good catching prospects right now (Montero, Romine, Cervelli), Montero is just the best. I wouldn't be surprised to at all to see any of those three get traded for ZG. They're extremely deep in young catching right now and it would make all the sense in the world for them to unload some of that depth for big-time pitching, which is by far their biggest problem.

[Jordan4life_2007]

They signed Martin with the expectation that he'll bounce back and with the intent to use him as a bridge to one of their prospects ( http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/base...kees.martin.ap/ ).

 

They have three good catching prospects right now (Montero, Romine, Cervelli), Montero is just the best. I wouldn't be surprised to at all to see any of those three get traded for ZG. They're extremely deep in young catching right now and it would make all the sense in the world for them to unload some of that depth for big-time pitching, which is by far their biggest problem.

 

Thing is from what I've heard the Royals want premium pitching prospect(s) back. I don't think they're looking for a catcher. Not as a centerpiece anyway.

[Eminor3rd]

Thing is from what I've heard the Royals want premium pitching prospect(s) back. I don't think they're looking for a catcher. Not as a centerpiece anyway.

 

Yeah, I've heard that too. Yankees will no doubt dangle Joba. Probably not what you or I would consider premium SP, but we ARE talking about Dayton Moore here.

[Eminor3rd]

Brewers, White Sox and Cardinals should all be in on this.

 

The White Sox should move Danks to the Yanks for the prospects the Royals would like and then add Viciedo or Morel.

 

A three way deal gets you around the NTC to a degree.

 

The LAST thing the Royals need is Viciedo or Morel. They have Butler, Moustakas, Hosmer, Ka'aiuhe, and even Wilson Betemit to man the corner infield for about the next 7 years.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Yeah, I've heard that too. Yankees will no doubt dangle Joba. Probably not what you or I would consider premium SP, but we ARE talking about Dayton Moore here.

 

Say what you will about his moves concerning the ML team. But he's been pretty spot-on regarding the farm and player development. The Royals have the consensus best system in the majors. If they trade Greinke, they're most likely going to get pitching back. And I doubt they would want Joba.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Jordan4life

[Balta1701]

The LAST thing the Royals need is Viciedo or Morel. They have Butler, Moustakas, Hosmer, Ka'aiuhe, and even Wilson Betemit to man the corner infield for about the next 7 years.

Come the trade deadline, Sale might be a guy who could be a headliner for Greinke.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Come the trade deadline, Sale might be a guy who could be a headliner for Greinke.

 

That would definitely signal the end of the Mark Buehrle era.

[Eminor3rd]

Come the trade deadline, Sale might be a guy who could be a headliner for Greinke.

 

I can't see us absorbing the salary at this point, can you?

 

That would definitely signal the end of the Mark Buehrle era.

 

Unless this is the case.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Eminor3rd

[Balta1701]

I can't see us absorbing the salary at this point, can you?

If this team's in first place, yes.

[Dick Allen]

What I don't understand is on the same board which just a month or so ago came to the conclusion John Danks had to go because his "trade value" will never be higher, now has the what will it take to get Greinke, a guy under team control for the same length as Danks, only more money, a guy who you really don't know how he will handle a big market, and a guy you have no idea would be up for signing a reasonable extension.

 

 

[iamshack]

Say what you will about his moves concerning the ML team. But he's been pretty spot-on regarding the farm and player development. The Royals have the consensus best system in the majors. If they trade Greinke, they're most likely going to get pitching back. And I doubt they would want Joba.

Let's not go overboard now. He's been given a blank checkbook to draft whomever he wants with their draft picks. And of this amazing collection of talent they have in their system, not one of these kids has come up and produced anything as of yet. And the only drafted player with any acclaim thus far that has come up has been a prolific bust.

 

This isn't to say they don't have a lot of potential in their system, because they do. But let's not pretend as though he's done anything other than use the failures of his major league club and a ton of money to build their system up.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Let's not go overboard now. He's been given a blank checkbook to draft whomever he wants with their draft picks. And of this amazing collection of talent they have in their system, not one of these kids has come up and produced anything as of yet. And the only drafted player with any acclaim thus far that has come up has been a prolific bust.

 

This isn't to say they don't have a lot of potential in their system, because they do. But let's not pretend as though he's done anything other than use the failures of his major league club and a ton of money to build their system up.

 

That's pretty much your standard response to any team that appears to have a stocked system. "Well they spend." And? Maybe we should spend a tad more on the draft so we don't have to overpay for guys like Peavy and Rios. So we don't have to hand out 4-year deals to Scott Linebrink. So we don't have to trade for Juan Pierre. So we're not forced to bring back a declining A.J. because we have flat nothing to bring up. And I never said having a stocked system guaranteed anything. These guys can all bust. But for a team like the Royals, it's a start. I was just pointing out that Moore had a specific plan and he's executed it to this point. The Royals are looking at 2013-2014 as far as them really making their move. We shall see. For us? 2011 should be, probably won't be, a make or break year for Ozzie, KW and the entire staff. If we come up short to the Twins again then heads better f***ing roll. Enough is enough.

[iamshack]

That's pretty much your standard response to any team that appears to have a stocked system. "Well they spend." And? Maybe we should spend a tad more on the draft so we don't have to overpay for guys like Peavy and Rios. So we don't have to hand out 4-year deals to Scott Linebrink. So we don't have to trade for Juan Pierre. So we're not forced to bring back a declining A.J. because we have flat nothing to bring up. And I never said having a stocked system guaranteed anything. These guys can all bust. But for a team like the Royals, it's a start. I was just pointing out that Moore had a specific plan and he's executed it to this point. The Royals are looking at 2013-2014 as far as them really making their move. We shall see. For us? 2011 should be, probably won't be, a make or break year for Ozzie, KW and the entire staff. If we come up short to the Twins again then heads better f***ing roll. Enough is enough.

Well, I'm sorry you feel that that is my standard response. I don't feel that way at all. I can respect teams that are developing talent from within while producing results at the major league level. I respect the Red Sox, Dodgers, Rockies, Angels, etc, for creating a balance between major league success and development. What I don't find particularly impressive is finishing at the bottom of the league for so many consecutive seasons that the sheer quantity of high draft picks have stacked on top of one another to create a strong system.

 

I suppose it's good that the Royals see the value in paying to develop talent through the draft, but could they really do much less? I suppose they could be the Pirates, but even they are paying over-slot money now.

 

The bottom-line is if you are a small market team with an inability to attract quality free agents, a culture of losing, and a consistent top-5 draft pick, is there any other course of action one could possibly take? You, me, or pretty much anyone here could see it's absolutely imperative to spend their revenue-sharing allotment on the high draft picks which have resulted from their horrendous major league results during Moore's entire tenure.

 

Finally, Moore's "Plan" has been almost universally mocked amongst saber circles for his public stance of acquiring one type of player, while meanwhile acquiring the complete opposite type of player in reality.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that that is my standard response. I don't feel that way at all. I can respect teams that are developing talent from within while producing results at the major league level. I respect the Red Sox, Dodgers, Rockies, Angels, etc, for creating a balance between major league success and development. What I don't find particularly impressive is finishing at the bottom of the league for so many consecutive seasons that the sheer quantity of high draft picks have stacked on top of one another to create a strong system.

 

Well you do the same thing when I bring up the Red Sox or Phillies, teams that find talent much later in the draft. I can't give them full credit because they spend. We could do the exact same thing.

 

suppose it's good that the Royals see the value in paying to develop talent through the draft, but could they really do much less? I suppose they could be the Pirates, but even they are paying over-slot money now.

 

The bottom-line is if you are a small market team with an inability to attract quality free agents, a culture of losing, and a consistent top-5 draft pick, is there any other course of action one could possibly take? You, me, or pretty much anyone here could see it's absolutely imperative to spend their revenue-sharing allotment on the high draft picks which have resulted from their horrendous major league results during Moore's entire tenure.

 

Finally, Moore's "Plan" has been almost universally mocked amongst saber circles for his public stance of acquiring one type of player, while meanwhile acquiring the complete opposite type of player in reality.

 

I never said the Royals were some blueprint on how to build a team. This was all about Greinke and what the Royals would probably expect. You made it into something that it really wasn't. And you say Moore is being mocked for stockpiling a loaded system? Or am I misinterpreting what you said?

[knightni]

Ideally, Greinke's choice option would have to be the Rays.

 

He's from Orlando and Tropicana Field has no pressure, yet the team competes.

 

KC would probably want Hellickson, Matt Moore, and Tim Beckham at minimum.

 

Of course, the Rays would need to deal Garza to Texas for a few prospects prior to that as well.

[Balta1701]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that that is my standard response. I don't feel that way at all. I can respect teams that are developing talent from within while producing results at the major league level. I respect the Red Sox, Dodgers, Rockies, Angels, etc, for creating a balance between major league success and development. What I don't find particularly impressive is finishing at the bottom of the league for so many consecutive seasons that the sheer quantity of high draft picks have stacked on top of one another to create a strong system.

Looking at your list of teams, one thing struck me...how many ridiculous disappointments have those teams seen?

 

The Dodgers, to start. Billingsly seemingly has imploded. Broxton, perhaps ditto. Loney never developed. Hu is long gone. Matt Kemp had one great year and fell backwards with attitude things. Russell Martin had a couple good years then imploded. About the only guys they can legitimately count on right now are Kershaw (awesome) and Ethier...and Ethier was a guy they stole from Beane in a trade.

 

The Halos could well be worse off. They got a legit guy in Weaver, but beyond that...Ervin Santana has never turned into an ace, Howie Kendrick was supposed to hit .380 every year and he seems to be barely average, their list of complete implosions is huge: Brandon Wood, Dallas McPherson, Casey Kotchman, etc. Morales is the one hitter they have who legitimately turned into a star from their system, and again, wasn't drafted (Cuban signee).

 

The Rockies have some great guys they developed (Tulo), but where would they be without Billy Beane helping them out with a ridiculous trade? Boston just got Adrian Gonzalez handed to them by a guy who seemed more interested in helping them out than acquiring talent.

 

I'm not sure you realize it, but in selling hard on how much you admire those systems, a careful observer might raise his hand and say "wait a second, I'm not sure they've used them as wisely as possible".

[iamshack]

Well you do the same thing when I bring up the Red Sox or Phillies, teams that find talent much later in the draft. I can't give them full credit because they spend. We could do the exact same thing.

 

 

 

I never said the Royals were some blueprint on how to build a team. This was all about Greinke and what the Royals would probably expect. You made it into something that it really wasn't. And you say Moore is being mocked for stockpiling a loaded system? Or am I misinterpreting what you said?

No, what I have said quite consistently is that developing talent is much more difficult to commit to than many around here seem to be willing to admit. I do give the Red Sox and Phillies credit for finding the right mix of dollars to field great major league teams while simultaneously staying true to their development plans. However, for every Red Sox or Phillies example there are others who have not managed to do so well going the development route, namely the two LA teams.

 

This is not a knock on development from within as a philosophy, which is what reaction always seem to follow my comments on the subject, but rather, an argument for realism when it comes to leaning too far towards development and not enough towards utilizing spending via the marketplace.

 

As for Moore and the Royals, google "Dayton Moore and The Process" to get an idea of what I mean.

[Balta1701]

No, what I have said quite consistently is that developing talent is much more difficult to commit to than many around here seem to be willing to admit. I do give the Red Sox and Phillies credit for finding the right mix of dollars to field great major league teams while simultaneously staying true to their development plans. However, for every Red Sox or Phillies example there are others who have not managed to do so well going the development route, namely the two LA teams.

I actually think it's somewhat different. I think it's like BABIP. When you draft, even if you do all the scouting in the world correctly, you've still got a 15% chance of hitting, or something like that. If you hold onto enough guys and stockpile enough picks, then eventually you're going to hit a hot streak, while another team could do just as well with everything and hit a cold streak, yet the management of the team on the hot streak would be idolized, while people get fired and ridiculed from the unlucky team.

[iamshack]

Looking at your list of teams, one thing struck me...how many ridiculous disappointments have those teams seen?

 

The Dodgers, to start. Billingsly seemingly has imploded. Broxton, perhaps ditto. Loney never developed. Hu is long gone. Matt Kemp had one great year and fell backwards with attitude things. Russell Martin had a couple good years then imploded. About the only guys they can legitimately count on right now are Kershaw (awesome) and Ethier...and Ethier was a guy they stole from Beane in a trade.

 

The Halos could well be worse off. They got a legit guy in Weaver, but beyond that...Ervin Santana has never turned into an ace, Howie Kendrick was supposed to hit .380 every year and he seems to be barely average, their list of complete implosions is huge: Brandon Wood, Dallas McPherson, Casey Kotchman, etc. Morales is the one hitter they have who legitimately turned into a star from their system, and again, wasn't drafted (Cuban signee).

 

The Rockies have some great guys they developed (Tulo), but where would they be without Billy Beane helping them out with a ridiculous trade? Boston just got Adrian Gonzalez handed to them by a guy who seemed more interested in helping them out than acquiring talent.

 

I'm not sure you realize it, but in selling hard on how much you admire those systems, a careful observer might raise his hand and say "wait a second, I'm not sure they've used them as wisely as possible".

 

I admire them for being able to develop strong farm systems while maintaining solid major league clubs. But this is exactly my point - what have these organizations managed to achieve that ours has not? I'm arguing that there is more than one way to skin a cat here, which is what I have always argued in regards to this subject matter.

 

But what Im also saying is that I am much more impressed by the efforts of those organizations than those of one like Kansas City. That doesn't mean, however, that I think what those organizations have done is any more impressive than what ours has done.