Minor League talent rankings

[gatnom]

That's a pretty mediocre comparison. Getz isn't that good defensively, isn't a good hitter, has no power, and doesn't really show patience. He is a hustle and heart kind of player who is best served on the bench. Brent Morel has shown throughout the minors that he's a good hitter, has showed doubles power, and hit a couple balls in the in the season that haven't really landed yet.

 

Basically, Brent Morel can be a capable starting player whereas Chris Getz really can't.

 

Morel is a defense-first type of player who will give you maybe slightly above average offense for his position, and I think we'll end up trading him away to make a spot for our bigger prospect, Viciedo. Obviously it's not a perfect comparison because, as you mentioned, Chris Getz isn't good at much of anything, but I think Morel still fits the mold of that maybe above average but not flashy kind of player. In the end, the town isn't big enough for the two of them. Considering how hard KW tried holding onto him at the deadline, I bet we'll be seeing Viciedo at third in Charlotte this season and in Chicago at the very latest next year.

Edited December 27, 2010 by gatnom

[DirtySox]

Morel is a defense-first type of player who will give you maybe slightly above average offense for his position, and I think we'll end up trading him away to make a spot for our bigger prospect, Viciedo. Obviously it's not a perfect comparison because, as you mentioned, Chris Getz isn't good at much of anything, but I think Morel still fits the mold of that maybe above average but not flashy kind of player. In the end, the town isn't big enough for the two of them. Considering how hard KW tried holding onto him at the deadline, I bet we'll be seeing Viciedo at third in Charlotte this season and in Chicago at the very latest next year.

 

I want Viciedo nowhere near 3B. Absolute butcher. Couple that with abhorrent platoon splits, weight issues, a complete lack of plate discipline and you have a prospect who is nothing more than average.

 

If Dayan isn't traded he absolutely should be learning an OF corner next year. No reason to unseat Morel (if successful) unless Dayan magically acquires defensive aptitude. Considering the Sox moved him to 1B after one minor league season leaves me less than confident it will happen.

[Balta1701]

Considering how hard KW tried holding onto him at the deadline, I bet we'll be seeing Viciedo at third in Charlotte this season and in Chicago at the very latest next year.

I think I have to disagree with the premise here. I got the impression that Kenny was willing to move Viciedo, and was willing to do so for less than I thought he should get for him (a 2 month Dunn Rental)...but he just didn't want to be jerked around or not dealt with honestly. If the Nats had been willing to actually sit down and hammer out a deal of Dunn for Viciedo + something else, I think it'd have gotten done quite quickly.

[gatnom]

I think I have to disagree with the premise here. I got the impression that Kenny was willing to move Viciedo, and was willing to do so for less than I thought he should get for him (a 2 month Dunn Rental)...but he just didn't want to be jerked around or not dealt with honestly. If the Nats had been willing to actually sit down and hammer out a deal of Dunn for Viciedo + something else, I think it'd have gotten done quite quickly.

 

For some reason, I remember the rumors being that we would give them anything in the minors short of Viciedo. I guess in either case it doesn't particularly matter because he soured on Hudson and Flowers in less than a years time, so he may very well decide to trade him even if he were unwilling to do so at the last deadline.

[Balta1701]

For some reason, I remember the rumors being that we would give them anything in the minors short of Viciedo. I guess in either case it doesn't particularly matter because he soured on Hudson and Flowers in less than a years time, so he may very well decide to trade him even if he were unwilling to do so at the last deadline.

That may have been one of the things mentioned in some of the discussions, but it never got to the point where they would have had to seriously choose between Dunn and Viciedo; the Nats kept demanding Beckham.

 

But...honestly...if the Sox weren't willing to offer up Viciedo, there wasn't anything to discuss in the first place.

[gatnom]

That may have been one of the things mentioned in some of the discussions, but it never got to the point where they would have had to seriously choose between Dunn and Viciedo; the Nats kept demanding Beckham.

 

But...honestly...if the Sox weren't willing to offer up Viciedo, there wasn't anything to discuss in the first place.

 

Which brings us back to the premise of this thread...

[fathom]

Rizzo confirmed it was Viciedo that KW wasn't moving

[Jordan4life_2007]

I want Viciedo nowhere near 3B. Absolute butcher. Couple that with abhorrent platoon splits, weight issues, a complete lack of plate discipline and you have a prospect who is nothing more than average.

 

If Dayan isn't traded he absolutely should be learning an OF corner next year. No reason to unseat Morel (if successful) unless Dayan magically acquires defensive aptitude. Considering the Sox moved him to 1B after one minor league season leaves me less than confident it will happen.

 

Then the signing was ultimately a failure. Does anybody really trust KW to get fair value, whatever that is, for Dayan?

[gatnom]

I want Viciedo nowhere near 3B. Absolute butcher. Couple that with abhorrent platoon splits, weight issues, a complete lack of plate discipline and you have a prospect who is nothing more than average.

 

If Dayan isn't traded he absolutely should be learning an OF corner next year. No reason to unseat Morel (if successful) unless Dayan magically acquires defensive aptitude. Considering the Sox moved him to 1B after one minor league season leaves me less than confident it will happen.

 

I think it should also be noted that Viciedo had a very hard time fielding fly balls, if I remember correctly.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Then the signing was ultimately a failure. Does anybody really trust KW to get fair value, whatever that is, for Dayan?

At this point no...because no self-respecting GM would trade a true haul for a guy who is blocked by a couple of other players and who has no obvious long-term position.

[ScottyDo]

Then the signing was ultimately a failure. Does anybody really trust KW to get fair value, whatever that is, for Dayan?

Maybe I'm missing the context of this post, but I hardly consider the Dunn signing a failure just because it may or may not marginally affect the value of an ancillary player.

 

EDIT: Or were you referring to the signing of Viciedo himself, perhaps? In which case, I kind of agree.

Edited December 27, 2010 by ScottyDo

[Balta1701]

Maybe I'm missing the context of this post, but I hardly consider the Dunn signing a failure just because it may or may not marginally affect the value of an ancillary player.

I think the context is more that he's ripping on KW for seemingly commonly giving up more in trades than it appears he needs to.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Maybe I'm missing the context of this post, but I hardly consider the Dunn signing a failure just because it may or may not marginally affect the value of an ancillary player.

 

EDIT: Or were you referring to the signing of Viciedo himself, perhaps?

 

It's a failure because obviously there was a mis-calculation, or just pure stupidity, that he could play 3B. That's what made him such an intriguing prospect. You can go to the Walmart and find a productive 1B/LF/RF.

[Balta1701]

It's a failure because obviously there was a mis-calculation, or just pure stupidity, that he could play 3B. That's what made him such an intriguing prospect. You can go to the Walmart and find a productive 1B/LF/RF.

Although this statement was true 10 years ago in the middle of the needle-boom, it's no longer as true as it once was. Last year, for example, there were only 11 1b in baseball who had OPS's over .800, 8 LF's, and 9 RF's. And a lot of those guys either were really F***ing expensive or will be really F***ing expensive starting this year.

 

On average last year, each of the 30 teams in MLB had 1 guy out of 1b, LF, and RF who put up an .800+ OPS over the full season. A lot of teams had zero guys who did.

[NorthSideSox72]

Although this statement was true 10 years ago in the middle of the needle-boom, it's no longer as true as it once was. Last year, for example, there were only 11 1b in baseball who had OPS's over .800, 8 LF's, and 9 RF's. And a lot of those guys either were really F***ing expensive or will be really F***ing expensive starting this year.

 

On average last year, each of the 30 teams in MLB had 1 guy out of 1b, LF, and RF who put up an .800+ OPS over the full season. A lot of teams had zero guys who did.

Thank you.

 

The story with Viciedo all along is that his bat would play, and it still looks like it will. 3B was an experiment, and its a bonus if he can stick there.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Although this statement was true 10 years ago in the middle of the needle-boom, it's no longer as true as it once was. Last year, for example, there were only 11 1b in baseball who had OPS's over .800, 8 LF's, and 9 RF's. And a lot of those guys either were really F***ing expensive or will be really F***ing expensive starting this year.

 

On average last year, each of the 30 teams in MLB had 1 guy out of 1b, LF, and RF who put up an .800+ OPS over the full season. A lot of teams had zero guys who did.

 

Yeah, I read an article on that just recently. Still, a productive 3B is a lot harder to come by than a productive 1B.

[Balta1701]

Yeah, I read an article on that just recently. Still, a productive 3B is a lot harder to come by than a productive 1B.

And I think...in Brent Morel...we have one.

[Jordan4life_2007]

And I think...in Brent Morel...we have one.

 

Which ultimately brings me back to the organization's mishandling or mis-judgement of younger players. Or guys that we either draft or sign. We seem to be really good at raiding other teams inventory. But horrible at the other aspect. I don't want to see Viciedo go for a struggling yet talented high A pitcher that Scott Merkin will inevitably dub Cooper's next great experiment and then reference Thornton, Floyd and Contreras.

[NorthSideSox72]

Which ultimately brings me back to the organization's mishandling or mis-judgement of younger players. Or guys that we either draft or sign. We seem to be really good at raiding other teams inventory. But horrible at the other aspect. I don't want to see Viciedo go for a struggling yet talented high A pitcher that Scott Merkin will inevitably dub Cooper's next great experiment and then reference Thornton, Floyd and Contreras.

What possible reason would you have to think this has even a slight chance of happening? When has KW ever made a deal like that?

 

[ScottyDo]

Which ultimately brings me back to the organization's mishandling or mis-judgement of younger players. Or guys that we either draft or sign. We seem to be really good at raiding other teams inventory. But horrible at the other aspect. I don't want to see Viciedo go for a struggling yet talented high A pitcher that Scott Merkin will inevitably dub Cooper's next great experiment and then reference Thornton, Floyd and Contreras.

Can't raid another teams' inventories without having some inventory of your own.

 

Also, why would KW just give Viciedo away for low value? We can still keep him. We dont have an urgent need for a High A pitcher, or really any other piece. If anything, Viciedo is traded to immediately assist the current Sox team. That is, and always has been, Kenny's MO. Whether he gets fair MLB value might be debatable but there is zero reason to just dump Viciedo, and it will never happen (unless he someday becomes a 28 year old AAAA failure...which will also not happen.)

[gatnom]

Can't raid another teams' inventories without having some inventory of your own.

 

Also, why would KW just give Viciedo away for low value? We can still keep him. We dont have an urgent need for a High A pitcher, or really any other piece. If anything, Viciedo is traded to immediately assist the current Sox team. That is, and always has been, Kenny's MO. Whether he gets fair MLB value might be debatable but there is zero reason to just dump Viciedo, and it will never happen (unless he someday becomes a 28 year old AAAA failure...which will also not happen.)

 

The problem with keeping him is that he's a man without a position. I'm definitely lower on Morel than many on here (read: Balta), but even if you wanted to move him to make room for Viciedo, Viciedo's defense is questionable even if he's as good offensively as he can be. Horrible defense can really bring your value down. Just look at Carlos Quentin. From what I remember, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the things that Viciedo had the hardest time fielding were fly balls, which makes a corner outfield spot once pierre is gone seem like a bad idea as well.

 

You could trade him as you suggested, but the only holes we have on this team are in the bullpen. And, the last time we traded a corner infield prospect for a relief pitcher many around here seemed to think we didn't get back nearly as much as we gave up. Tony Pena hasn't done a whole lot to prove them wrong either.

[Jordan4life_2007]

What possible reason would you have to think this has even a slight chance of happening? When has KW ever made a deal like that?

 

I'm just saying we're not exactly dealing from a position of strength when other teams know we have nowhere to play him. And I don't buy this camp Cora crap. Josh Fields called and told me it's not really that impactful.

 

Can't raid another teams' inventories without having some inventory of your own.

 

Also, why would KW just give Viciedo away for low value? We can still keep him. We dont have an urgent need for a High A pitcher, or really any other piece. If anything, Viciedo is traded to immediately assist the current Sox team. That is, and always has been, Kenny's MO. Whether he gets fair MLB value might be debatable but there is zero reason to just dump Viciedo, and it will never happen (unless he someday becomes a 28 year old AAAA failure...which will also not happen.)

 

Because he wasn't signed to a 4-year deal to sit in the minors. And if he can't show that he can play a competent position, 3B or OF, his value diminishes greatly.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Jordan4life

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm just saying we're not exactly dealing from a position of strength when other teams know we have nowhere to play him. And I don't buy this camp Cora crap. Josh Fields called and told me it's not really that impactful.

 

 

 

Because he wasn't signed to a 4-year deal to sit in the minors. And if he can't show that he can play a competent position, 3B or OF, his value diminishes greatly.

I think the people around the league already know he's probably a 1B at this point, maybe 3B, and maybe-maybe an OF. There's no secret here - Viciedo's bat is what will get him to the majors, and teams will use him where they can. He's also only 20 (and under control for, what, 4 more yearsor something?) and the Sox would be perfectly content to wait for things to develop with him and players around him, so I don't really see much weakness in the Sox' position.

 

[Balta1701]

Actually NSS, assuming his birthdate is accurate, he turns 22 during training camp this year.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I think the people around the league already know he's probably a 1B at this point, maybe 3B, and maybe-maybe an OF. There's no secret here - Viciedo's bat is what will get him to the majors, and teams will use him where they can. He's also only 20 (and under control for, what, 4 more yearsor something?) and the Sox would be perfectly content to wait for things to develop with him and players around him, so I don't really see much weakness in the Sox' position.

 

I understand that. But we've got a couple guys by the names of Konerko and Dunn that are going to hold down 1B/DH for the next three years. So again, unless he proves otherwise, there's nowhere to play him. Not saying he's untradeable. But it's going to be hard, IMO, to get back maximum value considering the circumstances. And I'm TOTALLY against stashing him in the minors. Maybe to start the year. But unless he really struggles to begin the year, that would be irresponsible on multiple levels.