Minor League talent rankings

[iamshack]

What did the White Sox do to develop Gordon Beckham? My point being, he was pretty much at that point. This was not a guy they took in the third round as a draft and follow. Everybody knew what he was, and this was pretty much common knowledge within the major draft publications. The only argument was to what his ceiling was.

 

Ditto Chris Sale. He appeared in 11 games in the minor. 11. GAMES. Either the White Sox have the best ever system at developing guys ultra quickly, or he was ready when he was drafted. I'm not knocking the organization for recognizing a player like this, but when people want to give them credit for "developing" him I think it's pretty hyperbolic.

 

And I'll say it again. Pretty much every team can name two guys that they recently drafted that are up with the big club. I think White Sox fans as a whole fall in love with prospects so much because for this club, they're so rare that they actually come up to the big leagues and are as good as advertised.

No one is trying to argue that the White Sox developed these guys. But you're giving them no credit for spotting the first guys to make it to the big leagues in those two drafts? To rate a minor league system, or the White Sox ability to produce MLB ballplayers, which, last time I checked, ultimately is the entire purpose of a minor league system, and then to disregard Beckham and Sale is absolutely nonsensical.

 

Like Scenario said, maybe had we drafted Lonnie Chisenhall in 08' instead of Beckham our system would be rated better.

[Paint it Black]

No one is trying to argue that the White Sox developed these guys. But you're giving them no credit for spotting the first guys to make it to the big leagues in those two drafts? To rate a minor league system, or the White Sox ability to produce MLB ballplayers, which, last time I checked, ultimately is the entire purpose of a minor league system, and then to disregard Beckham and Sale is absolutely nonsensical.

 

Like Scenario said, maybe had we drafted Lonnie Chisenhall in 08' instead of Beckham our system would be rated better.

My ultimate point is that any team could have taken Beckham and Sale and got the exact same result. Seriously, these were not shockers as to how well these guys performed when the got to the bigs. So to say "Yeah well the system might suck but you have to give them credit for Beckham and Sale" is an awful argument because even the worst teams at developing players could have gotten the exact same results. In my opinion, said argument is pretty much butthurt White Sox fan mad that a prospect writer said the truth. The "Beckham and Sale" argument could be made for every team. Seriously, who is the worst team in baseball right now? The Royals? Well yeah but Billy Butler made the big leagues and is a doubles machine and Zach Greinke got them a slew of talent. See how easy it is to name two players an organization drafted and developed and then rank how "good" they are at developing and drafting.

 

Oh and a few scouts I have spoken to or read don't believe Sale will ever start, or at least don't think he ever will be one. I tend to agree. So doesn't taking a college pitcher with your first round pick for him to just be a pen arm kind of shoot any "b...b...but Sale" argument to pieces? (For the record I do like Sale and the pick, just as a really, really, good 8th inning guy for a team that is trying to win now.)

[iamshack]

My ultimate point is that any team could have taken Beckham and Sale and got the exact same result. Seriously, these were not shockers as to how well these guys performed when the got to the bigs. So to say "Yeah well the system might suck but you have to give them credit for Beckham and Sale" is an awful argument because even the worst teams at developing players could have gotten the exact same results. In my opinion, said argument is pretty much butthurt White Sox fan mad that a prospect writer said the truth. The "Beckham and Sale" argument could be made for every team. Seriously, who is the worst team in baseball right now? The Royals? Well yeah but Billy Butler made the big leagues and is a doubles machine and Zach Greinke got them a slew of talent. See how easy it is to name two players an organization drafted and developed and then rank how "good" they are at developing and drafting.

 

Oh and a few scouts I have spoken to or read don't believe Sale will ever start, or at least don't think he ever will be one. I tend to agree. So doesn't taking a college pitcher with your first round pick for him to just be a pen arm kind of shoot any "b...b...but Sale" argument to pieces? (For the record I do like Sale and the pick, just as a really, really, good 8th inning guy for a team that is trying to win now.)

The why wasn't Beckham picked earlier? Why wasn't Sale? And in re: your argument about Sale not being a starter, you're claiming to have won the point because a scout said Sale won't start or because you agree with him? Don't you think maybe you should wait and see what actually occurs first?

 

This is ridiculous and I am finished with it.

[Paint it Black]

The why wasn't Beckham picked earlier? Why wasn't Sale? And in re: your argument about Sale not being a starter, you're claiming to have won the point because a scout said Sale won't start or because you agree with him? Don't you think maybe you should wait and see what actually occurs first?

 

This is ridiculous and I am finished with it.

Maybe we should wait and see what actually occurs with the first 7 picks, (Tim Beckham, Pedro Alvarez, Eric Hosmer, Brian Matusz, Buster Posey, Kyle Skipworth, and Yonder Alonso) before we praise the White Sox for their ability to develop polished college players. Besides T. Beckham and Skipworth, you think the White Sox wouldn't like to have the other 5 players over Beckham? I'm not saying Beckham is a bad player or that I don't like his game going forward. The seven clubs before the White Sox mostly picked guys who had higher ceilings (albeit more risk and development time). The White Sox love drafting polished college players. Fine, whatever. My whole argument stemmed from this idea that farm system rankings should take into account the players who are on the big club now when really the best way to measure how well a team develops players is how many damn titles they win, and if Beckham and Sale are your crowing achievements as to why the farm system should get more credit, then we really need to rethink some things.

 

And I thought I made it clear why Sale wasn't picked earlier, because teams didn't think he would eventually start. My whole point was that you want to praise a team for developing a pen arm. 29 other teams can do so as well.

 

Just once I want to see this team draft a player on upside and actually develop said player. Jared Mitchell is my only hope currently...

[Jordan4life_2007]

Maybe we should wait and see what actually occurs with the first 7 picks, (Tim Beckham, Pedro Alvarez, Eric Hosmer, Brian Matusz, Buster Posey, Kyle Skipworth, and Yonder Alonso) before we praise the White Sox for their ability to develop polished college players. Besides T. Beckham and Skipworth, you think the White Sox wouldn't like to have the other 5 players over Beckham? I'm not saying Beckham is a bad player or that I don't like his game going forward. The seven clubs before the White Sox mostly picked guys who had higher ceilings (albeit more risk and development time). The White Sox love drafting polished college players. Fine, whatever. My whole argument stemmed from this idea that farm system rankings should take into account the players who are on the big club now when really the best way to measure how well a team develops players is how many damn titles they win, and if Beckham and Sale are your crowing achievements as to why the farm system should get more credit, then we really need to rethink some things.

 

And I thought I made it clear why Sale wasn't picked earlier, because teams didn't think he would eventually start. My whole point was that you want to praise a team for developing a pen arm. 29 other teams can do so as well.

 

Just once I want to see this team draft a player on upside and actually develop said player. Jared Mitchell is my only hope currently...

 

I'd say Trayce Thompson fits your criteria. He and Mitchell are the only 'spects worth following, IMO.

[ptatc]

Maybe we should wait and see what actually occurs with the first 7 picks, (Tim Beckham, Pedro Alvarez, Eric Hosmer, Brian Matusz, Buster Posey, Kyle Skipworth, and Yonder Alonso) before we praise the White Sox for their ability to develop polished college players. Besides T. Beckham and Skipworth, you think the White Sox wouldn't like to have the other 5 players over Beckham? I'm not saying Beckham is a bad player or that I don't like his game going forward. The seven clubs before the White Sox mostly picked guys who had higher ceilings (albeit more risk and development time). The White Sox love drafting polished college players. Fine, whatever. My whole argument stemmed from this idea that farm system rankings should take into account the players who are on the big club now when really the best way to measure how well a team develops players is how many damn titles they win, and if Beckham and Sale are your crowing achievements as to why the farm system should get more credit, then we really need to rethink some things.

 

And I thought I made it clear why Sale wasn't picked earlier, because teams didn't think he would eventually start. My whole point was that you want to praise a team for developing a pen arm. 29 other teams can do so as well.

 

Just once I want to see this team draft a player on upside and actually develop said player. Jared Mitchell is my only hope currently...

 

Would Morel qualify here? He was developed in the system and while I've always thought highly of him, many haven't.

[scenario]

Just once I want to see this team draft a player on upside and actually develop said player.

 

I think we draft quite a few players using this philosophy... just not in the first round.

 

 

[Paint it Black]

Would Morel qualify here? He was developed in the system and while I've always thought highly of him, many haven't.

He might, depending on where he ends up after the spring. I think he ends up being a Joe Crede-light type guy. Not much power. Not a great glove, but just a solid regular. I'm willing to put him on a list of guys who the White Sox developed, although again, bragging about developing one major league average player isn't something to hang your hat on.

 

I think we draft quite a few players using this philosophy... just not in the first round.

Well all teams do as draft and follow guys. I'm talking about Mitchell type guys. Huge athletic tools. Raw talent. First round. Oh and please stop drafting relatives of current organization members. At least not in the first 10 rounds.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Paint it Black

[scenario]

Well all teams do as draft and follow guys. I'm talking about Mitchell type guys. Huge athletic tools. Raw talent. First round. Oh and please stop drafting relatives of current organization members. At least not in the first 10 rounds.

 

I'm not talking about draft and follow.

 

Look at our picks the last 3 years. A much higher ratio of higher-risk "upside" guys than before.

 

 

[knightni]

I don't think that mlb rules allow "draft and follow" anymore.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think we draft quite a few players using this philosophy... just not in the first round.

Now, yes. Its a more recent trend though, we really saw the team get away from the safe pick philosophy starting in 2008. And 2009 was a good class too, but for these injuries. The Sox are getting better at drafting.

 

[Paint it Black]

I'm not talking about draft and follow.

 

Look at our picks the last 3 years. A much higher ratio of higher-risk "upside" guys than before.

Before Mitchell, Brian Anderson was probably the last, in 2003. They have not used a first round pick on a high schooler since 2001 (Kris Honel).

[DirtySox]

He might, depending on where he ends up after the spring. I think he ends up being a Joe Crede-light type guy. Not much power. Not a great glove, but just a solid regular. I'm willing to put him on a list of guys who the White Sox developed, although again, bragging about developing one major league average player isn't something to hang your hat on.

 

Not a great glove? The glove and his defense is Morel's calling card and one of the few things to worry about in regard to his skill set.

[Paint it Black]

Not a great glove? The glove and his defense is Morel's calling card and one of the few things to worry about in regard to his skill set.

From Kevin Goldstein at BP: "Morel is a plus (plus-plus for some) defender with a line-drive bat who hit .322/.359/.480 at the upper levels of the system this year. With an aggressive approach and slightly below-average power, he doesn't have the secondary skills to be a star, but he should be dependable."

 

When I said great I meant gold glove type third baseman, so a bad choice of words on my part. Some like is D, others don't. From what I saw in 2010 he was good, not great.

[Balta1701]

When I said great I meant gold glove type third baseman, so a bad choice of words on my part. Some like is D, others don't. From what I saw in 2010 he was good, not great.

I'd agree with this, he was good but not great last year, but he has all the tools to be great. Good throwing arm, good range, quick response, etc. Remember, he hasn't been in the minors that long either.

[Paint it Black]

I'd agree with this, he was good but not great last year, but he has all the tools to be great. Good throwing arm, good range, quick response, etc. Remember, he hasn't been in the minors that long either.

Agreed on all points. I'm not trying to s*** on Morel. Considering third base has been a black hole for a few years now, Morel would be a wonderful welcome to this club.