iamshack Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jan 7, 2011 -> 04:24 PM) Now is the time to go for the money yo. What you pull of in negotiations could put you 1-4 years ahead in terms of reviews/raises. Your best chance to make money is during negotiations. I recommend going in with a high number. Yeah, the key is to choose the highest number possible without hitting the "oh geez" point where they roll their eyes at you. They posted a range in the listing. I am going to start out high in the range but not at the highest point. Congrats on the raise, Steve! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jan 7, 2011 -> 04:21 PM) Congrats! Thanks Sqwerty. QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 7, 2011 -> 04:29 PM) Yeah, the key is to choose the highest number possible without hitting the "oh geez" point where they roll their eyes at you. They posted a range in the listing. I am going to start out high in the range but not at the highest point. Congrats on the raise, Steve! Thank you too, good luck and keep us posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jan 7, 2011 -> 04:30 PM) Thanks Sqwerty. FYI folks. That's a name and not a condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jan 7, 2011 -> 06:31 PM) FYI folks. That's a name and not a condition. I totally read it as "condom" before I realized you said "condition," and really I wasn't that shocked a condom would be named that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Congrats!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 So they offered me the promotion this morning. Their offer came in higher than I expected, but still lower than I want. They are trying to strong-arm me by saying there are no negotiations. It is a take-it or leave-it offer. If I don't accept, they will simply offer it to the next person in line. I don't believe them, and this "no-negotiations" process ticks me off. I am thinking of calling their bluff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 12, 2011 -> 11:03 AM) So they offered me the promotion this morning. Their offer came in higher than I expected, but still lower than I want. They are trying to strong-arm me by saying there are no negotiations. It is a take-it or leave-it offer. If I don't accept, they will simply offer it to the next person in line. I don't believe them, and this "no-negotiations" process ticks me off. I am thinking of calling their bluff. Hmm. That's a tough one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jan 12, 2011 -> 01:44 PM) Hmm. That's a tough one. I called their bluff. They are trying to approve more $ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 12, 2011 -> 04:38 PM) I called their bluff. They are trying to approve more $ Balls. You haz them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jan 12, 2011 -> 04:39 PM) Oh man, this was my perfect chance to use the line "Only the Sith deal in absolutes." Darnit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 12, 2011 -> 04:38 PM) I called their bluff. They are trying to approve more $ Nicely done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 12, 2011 -> 05:54 PM) Nicely done. Thanks. I just get tired of corporations trying to make it appear that since this is a bad job market, they can treat the employees they do have like garbage. I don't know about you guys, but my company seems to like to hold it over our heads. My boss even said offhandedly that he could replace us with people from the bus stop if need be. I doubt they will come back with what I counter-offered, but if they bump it up I will probably accept. This was more about principle than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 Ok, so I am not trying to flatter myself and keep you guys all entangled in my drama, but since I started this thread, and some of you have given me good advice, I figure it would be foolish to not finish the story... So they came back last night with the same offer, saying they could not get any movement whatsoever. I told them I wanted the night to sleep on it. Last night I was leaning towards declining the offer, but decided to wait to make a decision until I got some sleep. I awoke this morning with the same feeling as I had last night, so I am going to decline the offer this morning. Not only am I going to decline their offer, but I am going to retract my counter offer I made yesterday. I feel 100% confident that I am making the correct decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 What jerks. Now they say they are going to try again. Whatever. I won't even take the counter offer I gave them yesterday anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Controlled Chaos Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 13, 2011 -> 08:00 AM) What jerks. Now they say they are going to try again. Whatever. I won't even take the counter offer I gave them yesterday anymore. So can you go through all this and then stay with the company in your current position? I know you said you had your eye on something else, but in what you said is such a narrow field...I'd be cautious. Good luck!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 QUOTE (Controlled Chaos @ Jan 13, 2011 -> 10:01 AM) So can you go through all this and then stay with the company in your current position? I know you said you had your eye on something else, but in what you said is such a narrow field...I'd be cautious. Good luck!! Yeah, doing this within a company, I'd be very careful unless you have an offer coming from elsewhere as well. Negotiating is one thing, but pulling away and further retracting the counter-offer you made may look bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I agree. You will put yourself in a dead end at this company if you play your cards that way. It might be an ego blow, but you have to think of your future if you plan on staying for any amount of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Man, if you can get more cash, when you said they already came in higher than you'd expected, you should swallow your pride and accept. Jobs are very precious right now, and even if you hate that they hold that fact over your head, it's still very true. Be very careful here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 Nope, I'm standing my ground here. This entire process has been wrought with manipulation and deception on their end, and I am not going to be forced to accept a position simply because they don't want to pay me anywhere near my fair market value. 1) They manipulated my base salary in their offer and misrepresented the percentage raise I would be given 2) They told me the offer was non-negotiable and take it or leave it 3) I told them I was declining the offer then, at which time, they told me they expected me to negotiate because that is my job (I am a trader) and would try and increase their offer 4) They came back with the same offer 5) I then declined that offer 6) They now want to try and negotiate again Wtf game are we playing here? I am not asking for a figure that is even at the midpoint of the range they posted in the job description. They saw my background and actually changed the job description include duties which would utilize my law degree, however, they did not in turn change the pay range or make me an offer that is even in the middle of the range. I worked my ass off to get my JD, as well as the jobs I had whjile I was getting it, and I am paying that back every month in the form of student loans. If they want me to work on regulatory filings that require the knowledge amd training of someone with an advanced degree, and this was not in the original job description, then they have to show some good faith and at least show some consideration for that. They have shown nothing but bad faith in these negotiations, by misrepresenting the terms of the offer, as well as the character of their offer(s). I'm sorry guys, but I have some experience in negotiations, and you don't tell them something is your absolute final offer, and then when they reject it, say oh, wait a minute, it's not my final offer. That is called bad faith. I've done nothing wrong other than try to negotiate according to what is in my best interests. In no way should I be required to accept something simply because they want me to. This isn't Russia, is it Danny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 More power to you, man. Like I said, you have some Cajones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 13, 2011 -> 11:14 AM) Nope, I'm standing my ground here. This entire process has been wrought with manipulation and deception on their end, and I am not going to be forced to accept a position simply because they don't want to pay me anywhere near my fair market value. 1) They manipulated my base salary in their offer and misrepresented the percentage raise I would be given 2) They told me the offer was non-negotiable and take it or leave it 3) I told them I was declining the offer then, at which time, they told me they expected me to negotiate because that is my job (I am a trader) and would try and increase their offer 4) They came back with the same offer 5) I then declined that offer 6) They now want to try and negotiate again Wtf game are we playing here? I am not asking for a figure that is even at the midpoint of the range they posted in the job description. They saw my background and actually changed the job description include duties which would utilize my law degree, however, they did not in turn change the pay range or make me an offer that is even in the middle of the range. I worked my ass off to get my JD, as well as the jobs I had whjile I was getting it, and I am paying that back every month in the form of student loans. If they want me to work on regulatory filings that require the knowledge amd training of someone with an advanced degree, and this was not in the original job description, then they have to show some good faith and at least show some consideration for that. They have shown nothing but bad faith in these negotiations, by misrepresenting the terms of the offer, as well as the character of their offer(s). I'm sorry guys, but I have some experience in negotiations, and you don't tell them something is your absolute final offer, and then when they reject it, say oh, wait a minute, it's not my final offer. That is called bad faith. I've done nothing wrong other than try to negotiate according to what is in my best interests. In no way should I be required to accept something simply because they want me to. This isn't Russia, is it Danny? Its not Russia, but if you want to work there for any amount of time, it is for you. Company's don't care about you and your ideals. I have been there and done that. If you become difficult, you are replaceable. Don't plan on life being comfortable at this firm if you fight this fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 13, 2011 -> 12:58 PM) Its not Russia, but if you want to work there for any amount of time, it is for you. Company's don't care about you and your ideals. I have been there and done that. If you become difficult, you are replaceable. Don't plan on life being comfortable at this firm if you fight this fight. I would not characterize refusal to accept a job offer as "being difficult." You guys have to understand, I have been trained to be a trader. I make transactions all day, every day. I negotiate every single one of those transactions. That is my job. They trained me to evaluate all available information and make the best decision possible based upon a certain level of possible outcomes and risks involved. I don't see how this is any different, and they even admitted that they expected this from me. So simply because I am not willing to accept their initial offer, I am somehow the bad guy in this thing? If they actually had the stones to fire me, now THAT would be perfect cause for unlawful termination. Secondly, just to answer the question, because it has been asked, yes, I do have other options available to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 13, 2011 -> 12:06 PM) I would not characterize refusal to accept a job offer as "being difficult." You guys have to understand, I have been trained to be a trader. I make transactions all day, every day. I negotiate every single one of those transactions. That is my job. They trained me to evaluate all available information and make the best decision possible based upon a certain level of possible outcomes and risks involved. I don't see how this is any different, and they even admitted that they expected this from me. So simply because I am not willing to accept their initial offer, I am somehow the bad guy in this thing? If they actually had the stones to fire me, now THAT would be perfect cause for unlawful termination. Secondly, just to answer the question, because it has been asked, yes, I do have other options available to me. That isn't the extent of what you indicated you were going to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 13, 2011 -> 12:34 PM) That isn't the extent of what you indicated you were going to do. That is correct. In a negotiation though, if you give me an offer, and I reject and counteroffer, and you reject my counteroffer, than that counteroffer is no longer valid. Secondly, when you're negotiating, a party is basically allowed to bluff once. If you call their bluff and they get caught, they lose and usually have to make a good faith effort to meet your request. However, if a party gets caught twice bluffing, that is an extreme show of bad faith and that is when the other party will usually walk away or actually increase their demands. It's the only manner in which to cause a detriment to bad faith in negotiations. I know you guys are saying that's all well and great, but a job is a job and you have to make a living. And I can understand that position. It's just not going to cause me to accept a position where the pros and cons come in around even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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