Frank Hall of Fame chances

[BamaDoc]

I think Frank is a sure fire HOF, but I was wondering what his first ballot chances were. Edgar Martinez received 32.9% of the votes after 36% his first year. I think penalized because he was primarily a DH. A career line of .312/.418/.515 with 7 allstar 5 silver slugger, 2 batting titles is not bad. Frank was .301/.419/.555 with 2 MVP four other top 5 and 3 more top ten, 1 batting title and 500+ homers, 5 all star, 4 silver slugger.

 

I am in no way saying EM is equal to Thomas, I am only tossing this out to get opinions on how primary DH are seen by the voters. Maybe Franks .300,20+ hr, 100 runs walks rbis for seven first years trumps all and gets him in on first ballot?

[Balta1701]

Like it or not, the other thing that hurt Martinez was playing in the middle of nowhere (Seattle). If he'd been the Martinez who went to the Yankees, he'd have been in.

[Cali]

Maddux Glavine and Thomas would be a hell of a '14 Class

[southsider2k5]

Thomas is a first ballot guy. Period.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Thomas is should be a first ballot guy. Period.

 

Unfortunately there's a difference.

[flavum]

Frank's going in on the first ballot. I have no doubt. It may be low 80's percentage because of some voting snobs, but he'll be over 75%.

[southsider2k5]

Unfortunately there's a difference.

 

I know the difference, and I also know that Frank Thomas will be a first ballot HOFer.

[chw42]

Frank has the home runs to probably sway the voters. Plus, these voters like to look at exactly how how great a player was anytime during his career and I think it's safe to say that early 90s Frank Thomas was a better player than Edgar Martinez at anytime in his career. You can literally compare Frank's numbers from 1991 to 1997 to Albert Pujols and say that they were similar caliber players offensively in that time span. Martinez was a very good and consistent hitter who put up some monster numbers from 1995 to the early 2000s, but when it comes to the Hall, you probably need to hit more home runs. Plus, Frank was the much bigger name and has two MVPs to show for it.

 

[Milkman delivers]

For a multitude of reasons, I believe Frank Thomas will be a first ballot guy. I am still bracing myself in case it doesn't happen, though.

[TheChrisSamsa]

Being a first ballot Hall Of Famer is rare and seems reserved for those "perfect" players. Guys like Cal Ripken Jr., and Tony Gwynn were the obvious first ballot hall of famers of recent memory. They had sparkling personalities and truly represented the game during their time with no connection to any PED, drugs or cheating. I was a little surprised that a strange personality who played for nine different teams like Rickey Henderson got in on his first ballot in 2009, but his skill set was beyond what anyone had ever seen.

 

Frank's numbers and dominance are staggering, he carried teams all throughout the 90's and into the 2000's. But he was never a media darling which could hold him back from getting that first ballot call.

 

The 2014 ballot will also be the first for Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine who seem to be clearer "first ballot" personalities. 1999 is the only time that three players were voted in on their first ballot (George Brett, Robin Yount, Nolan Ryan) so it's not unprecedented, but also unlikely. 2014 will also be the second ballot for potential HOFers Mike Piazza, Roger Clemens, and Barry Bonds if none get in on their first vote. If Clemens and Bonds get in, that opens the door for a lot of the steroid era guys (McGwire, Sosa, Palmero, etc.) to get in the way of Frank, who appears to have a cleaner record.

 

2015 is a little softer on the new additions to the ballot, with only Randy Johnson really being a shoe in. John Smoltz, Gary Sheffield and Pedro Martinez are really the only other realistic candidates who come up for vote in 2015. It wouldn't shock me if Frank had to wait until his second year to get in.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see him make it on the first ballot, but part of me expects him to have to wait a year or two.

 

 

[Texsox]

^^

POTY worthy.

[The Gooch]

Being a first ballot Hall Of Famer is rare and seems reserved for those "perfect" players. Guys like Cal Ripken Jr., and Tony Gwynn were the obvious first ballot hall of famers of recent memory. They had sparkling personalities and truly represented the game during their time with no connection to any PED, drugs or cheating. I was a little surprised that a strange personality who played for nine different teams like Rickey Henderson got in on his first ballot in 2009, but his skill set was beyond what anyone had ever seen.

 

Frank's numbers and dominance are staggering, he carried teams all throughout the 90's and into the 2000's. But he was never a media darling which could hold him back from getting that first ballot call.

 

The 2014 ballot will also be the first for Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine who seem to be clearer "first ballot" personalities. 1999 is the only time that three players were voted in on their first ballot (George Brett, Robin Yount, Nolan Ryan) so it's not unprecedented, but also unlikely. 2014 will also be the second ballot for potential HOFers Mike Piazza, Roger Clemens, and Barry Bonds if none get in on their first vote. If Clemens and Bonds get in, that opens the door for a lot of the steroid era guys (McGwire, Sosa, Palmero, etc.) to get in the way of Frank, who appears to have a cleaner record.

 

2015 is a little softer on the new additions to the ballot, with only Randy Johnson really being a shoe in. John Smoltz, Gary Sheffield and Pedro Martinez are really the only other realistic candidates who come up for vote in 2015. It wouldn't shock me if Frank had to wait until his second year to get in.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see him make it on the first ballot, but part of me expects him to have to wait a year or two.

 

I think being a big home run hitter who wasn't on steroids when everyone else was will help Frank the first year. I bet some voters are just dying to vote in a big home run hitter, but they can't bring themselves to vote for "cheaters" like McGwire, Bonds, and Sosa. Frank hit his way up the HR list without using steroids in the steroid era. I could see a lot of voters respecting that enough to vote for him 1st ballot.

[Middle Buffalo]

^^

POTY worthy.

Well, it should be pointed out that it's a weak class. Last year this post wouldn't have garnered much of a response. Much stiffer competition back in 2010.

[bighurt574]

Thomas is a sure fire HOF'er, and it will happen within the first couple ballots, but I'm not sure about the very first time. While he wasn't hugely popular, if voters are going to keep penalizing players linked to steroids, maybe they'll be even quicker to vote for Thomas. I would bet good money that Thomas gets in before Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmeiro, or McGwire.

 

Edgar also isn't a great comparison, Thomas has 200 more hits, 200 more HR's, 450 more RBI's, and 2 MVP awards.

Edited January 6, 2011 by bighurt574

[TheChrisSamsa]

I think being a big home run hitter who wasn't on steroids when everyone else was will help Frank the first year. I bet some voters are just dying to vote in a big home run hitter, but they can't bring themselves to vote for "cheaters" like McGwire, Bonds, and Sosa. Frank hit his way up the HR list without using steroids in the steroid era. I could see a lot of voters respecting that enough to vote for him 1st ballot.

 

I agree with everything you've said, and I hope you're right, but to be a first ballot guy is a very special thing. Voters have always had a difficult time putting players who primarily played as Designated Hitters into the hall. Eventually the voters will let go of the stigma of "he didn't play the field", but as of now, Paul Molitor is the only player in the Hall of Fame as a designated hitter. He played 44% of his games at DH and the other 56% of his games were spread around the entire field, literally playing every fielding position besides catcher throughout his career. Frank would be the first player to make it into the hall having played more than half of his games at DH and he played the remainder of his games at first base which is one of the least respected defensive positions around baseball.

 

On top of that, writers are also now having a tough time letting a power hitter from the steroid era into the club, even those with no ties to performance enhancing drugs. Jeff Bagwell has similar numbers to Frank and dominated his league in the same timeframe that Frank played with no solid evidence that he used any steroids, only large amounts of speculation. He only got 41% of the vote on his first ballot. I know Frank will get more of the vote than that, but I'm not just not positive that it'll hit that 75% mark.

 

I think the steroid cloud actually makes the "hall of fame personality" and ability to play in the field even more important to get a power hitter in. Writers may wait for Ken Griffey Jr. To become eligible before they elect a powerful hitter on his first ballot.

 

Frank Thomas will be a hall of famer, but like I said before, I don't know that he has all of the qualities that the writers look for to make him a sure bet for his first ballot.

 

[The Gooch]

I agree with everything you've said, and I hope you're right, but to be a first ballot guy is a very special thing. Voters have always had a difficult time putting players who primarily played as Designated Hitters into the hall. Eventually the voters will let go of the stigma of "he didn't play the field", but as of now, Paul Molitor is the only player in the Hall of Fame as a designated hitter. He played 44% of his games at DH and the other 56% of his games were spread around the entire field, literally playing every fielding position besides catcher throughout his career. Frank would be the first player to make it into the hall having played more than half of his games at DH and he played the remainder of his games at first base which is one of the least respected defensive positions around baseball.

 

On top of that, writers are also now having a tough time letting a power hitter from the steroid era into the club, even those with no ties to performance enhancing drugs. Jeff Bagwell has similar numbers to Frank and dominated his league in the same timeframe that Frank played with no solid evidence that he used any steroids, only large amounts of speculation. He only got 41% of the vote on his first ballot. I know Frank will get more of the vote than that, but I'm not just not positive that it'll hit that 75% mark.

 

I think the steroid cloud actually makes the "hall of fame personality" and ability to play in the field even more important to get a power hitter in. Writers may wait for Ken Griffey Jr. To become eligible before they elect a powerful hitter on his first ballot.

 

Frank Thomas will be a hall of famer, but like I said before, I don't know that he has all of the qualities that the writers look for to make him a sure bet for his first ballot.

 

You are right on about the fielding part. I really don't understand that though. I mean gold glove voters don't even pay attention to fielding anymore. They just vote for whoever won last year until they retire or get injured.

[TheChrisSamsa]

You are right on about the fielding part. I really don't understand that though. I mean gold glove voters don't even pay attention to fielding anymore. They just vote for whoever won last year until they retire or get injured.

 

The gold glove is mostly an irrelevant award but fielding isn't an irrelevant part of the game. With that said, it'll be a dominant guy like Frank Thomas to bust down the doors of the Hall Of Fame for the DH. He might even pave the way for a guy like Jim Thome, who has extended his career quite a bit via the DH position.

[Milkman delivers]

Just to clarify, as I'm sure a lot of you aren't aware of this, but a lot of people automatically associate Frank with steroids due to his size and such. It's retarded logic, but the fact that he was very outspoken against steroids is not a well known fact outside of our fanbase. I'm not sure how much the writers with the power to vote know about the situation, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that many of them think the same way.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Just to clarify, as I'm sure a lot of you aren't aware of this, but a lot of people automatically associate Frank with steroids due to his size and such. It's retarded logic, but the fact that he was very outspoken against steroids is not a well known fact outside of our fanbase. I'm not sure how much the writers with the power to vote know about the situation, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that many of them think the same way.

 

Then they're f***ing idiots and you [not YOU] may as well associate any player that's ever been big and strong to ever play the game to steroids. Frank was an all-state TE at his HS and played football at Auburn. Just look at any of his old baseball cards. Dude was a monster from day 1. He wasn't some skinny f*** [sosa, Bonds] that ain't a whole bunch of spinach and became Popeye overnight.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Thomas is a sure fire HOF'er, and it will happen within the first couple ballots, but I'm not sure about the very first time. While he wasn't hugely popular, if voters are going to keep penalizing players linked to steroids, maybe they'll be even quicker to vote for Thomas. I would bet good money that Thomas gets in before Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmeiro, or McGwire.

 

Edgar also isn't a great comparison, Thomas has 200 more hits, 200 more HR's, 450 more RBI's, and 2 MVP awards.

 

I really want something bad to happen to Jason Giambi. Could you imagine just what 1 more MVP would look like on Frank's resume right now? No way a 3-time MVP doesn't get in on the first ballot. DH or not.

[Milkman delivers]

Then they're f***ing idiots and you [not YOU] may as well associate any player that's ever been big and strong to ever play the game to steroids. Frank was an all-state TE at his HS and played football at Auburn. Just look at any of his old baseball cards. Dude was a monster from day 1. He wasn't some skinny f*** [sosa, Bonds] that ain't a whole bunch of spinach and became Popeye overnight.

 

I'm well aware of all of that, and I know you weren't implying that I wasn't. But many, many people are unaware of those things and just assume he must have done steroids and don't bother at all to follow up with any research. A lot of writers are just as dumb and just stick to their outdated and ignorant beliefs, so I'm just saying that it might come into play.

 

Frank was never a big personality with the media. That is likely the reason why his appearance in Washington and voluntary statements to the Committee were so overlooked. Most people don't know Frank appeared voluntarily at those hearings or even that he was there. And if they know he was there, they just assume he was one of the people who had no choice but to be there. It's a shame really, as he would have been a perfect poster boy for the push towards a cleaner game.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Milkman delivers

[Paint it Black]

Being a first ballot Hall Of Famer is rare and seems reserved for those "perfect" players. Guys like Cal Ripken Jr., and Tony Gwynn were the obvious first ballot hall of famers of recent memory. They had sparkling personalities and truly represented the game during their time with no connection to any PED, drugs or cheating. I was a little surprised that a strange personality who played for nine different teams like Rickey Henderson got in on his first ballot in 2009, but his skill set was beyond what anyone had ever seen.

 

Frank's numbers and dominance are staggering, he carried teams all throughout the 90's and into the 2000's. But he was never a media darling which could hold him back from getting that first ballot call.

 

The 2014 ballot will also be the first for Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine who seem to be clearer "first ballot" personalities. 1999 is the only time that three players were voted in on their first ballot (George Brett, Robin Yount, Nolan Ryan) so it's not unprecedented, but also unlikely. 2014 will also be the second ballot for potential HOFers Mike Piazza, Roger Clemens, and Barry Bonds if none get in on their first vote. If Clemens and Bonds get in, that opens the door for a lot of the steroid era guys (McGwire, Sosa, Palmero, etc.) to get in the way of Frank, who appears to have a cleaner record.

 

2015 is a little softer on the new additions to the ballot, with only Randy Johnson really being a shoe in. John Smoltz, Gary Sheffield and Pedro Martinez are really the only other realistic candidates who come up for vote in 2015. It wouldn't shock me if Frank had to wait until his second year to get in.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see him make it on the first ballot, but part of me expects him to have to wait a year or two.

First, the Big Hurt is in first ballot without question. His numbers compare with the best hitters of all time. And I'v said it before and I'll say it again. The old dinosaurs voting love the made up bullcrap like "feared hitter" and who was more feared than Frank in the 90's? Back to back MVP's (just go look at his OBP and slugging in those years and cry because you wish he was still around). He hit 500 home runs. Tons of walks, homeruns, RBI's, and for his speed had a great batting average. Basically, if you think the Big Hurt will not make the HOF first ballot for reasons athough true (media, injuries) then can't you say the same about Griffey (missed tons of games due to not being able to stay healthy)? In no way am I arguing the point, but I'm just saying...

 

Second, Gwynn might be one of the most overrated players of my generation. Still HOF worthy, but Tim Raines was better.

 

Third, I don't think if Bonds or Clemens gets in it paves the way for Sosa and Palmero (I think McGwire should be in FWIW). I don't think Sosa was GREAT (not good, GREAT) for that long. Were talking about a guy who MAYBE for 3 years you could say top 5 player (and this is before defense was an emphasis). Palmero is along the same lines for me. Good, steady career. No high peaks, but someone who was never a top 5 player for a few years in row. Certinly he wasn't even the best first baseman of his era (I'll take the Big Hurt and Bagwell along with Thome.

[Rowand44]

The whole steroids thing coming out when it did helped Frank a lot. A few years ago I would have said that he wasn't a first ballot guy(I personally believe he is one but I don't think he would have gotten the votes on his first year) but with how hard the voters have come down on roiders or even just guys who they believe to be roiders, I really think that vaults Thomas' status and makes him a first ballot guy.

[Quin]

I really want something bad to happen to Jason Giambi. Could you imagine just what 1 more MVP would look like on Frank's resume right now? No way a 3-time MVP doesn't get in on the first ballot. DH or not.

 

+1

 

If Frank isn't a first ballot HOF, some BBWAA members will not sleep ever again.

[Milkman delivers]

First, the Big Hurt is in first ballot without question. His numbers compare with the best hitters of all time. And I'v said it before and I'll say it again. The old dinosaurs voting love the made up bullcrap like "feared hitter" and who was more feared than Frank in the 90's? Back to back MVP's (just go look at his OBP and slugging in those years and cry because you wish he was still around). He hit 500 home runs. Tons of walks, homeruns, RBI's, and for his speed had a great batting average. Basically, if you think the Big Hurt will not make the HOF first ballot for reasons athough true (media, injuries) then can't you say the same about Griffey (missed tons of games due to not being able to stay healthy)? In no way am I arguing the point, but I'm just saying...

 

Second, Gwynn might be one of the most overrated players of my generation. Still HOF worthy, but Tim Raines was better.

 

Third, I don't think if Bonds or Clemens gets in it paves the way for Sosa and Palmero (I think McGwire should be in FWIW). I don't think Sosa was GREAT (not good, GREAT) for that long. Were talking about a guy who MAYBE for 3 years you could say top 5 player (and this is before defense was an emphasis). Palmero is along the same lines for me. Good, steady career. No high peaks, but someone who was never a top 5 player for a few years in row. Certinly he wasn't even the best first baseman of his era (I'll take the Big Hurt and Bagwell along with Thome.

 

No.