Frank Hall of Fame chances

[Dick Allen]

If Roberto Alomar doesn't get in on the first ballot, I don't think Frank does. But like Alomar, unless some report comes out that shows Frank juiced, he's a 100 percent lock to get in.

[Balta1701]

I think Maggio has the best chance, but he has to get to 3000 hits in all likelihood.

If Ordonez had never blown out his leg, then he would have had a shot...but the era that he played in would likely be a taint on him as well.

[TheChrisSamsa]

Great post.

 

Maddux is in first ballot period, and I think Glavine and Thomas will battle just below that level. And with the general questions out there about big hitters in that era, I think that's enough to get Glavine in but Thomas out in their first ballots. Then Thomas goes in 2nd year.

 

Thanks very much for the compliment.

 

I agree that Maddux is first ballot, no question. I'd imagine he'll get the 97%-98% treatment that only Cal Ripken, George Brett, Tony Gwynn and Nolan Ryan have gotten in the past 12 years.

 

Glavine was one of the faces of striking players in 1994 when he was the Braves' player rep. I'd hate to say that that alone would keep him out on the first ballot, but that and how he lost his dominance while he was with the Mets will certainly come into play.

 

I think it'd be tough to put Maddux and Glavine in in the same class, considering Maddux had 50 more wins in just one fewer season on many of the same teams, albeit in 58 more starts.

 

I wouldn't be shocked to see Maddux and Thomas go in together (my posts on Frank being a first ballot guy or not have been largely of the "devil's advocate" variety, I'd love to see him go in first ballot). I would be surprised to see all 3 get in on their first ballots though. It's only happened once and the inductees were all undeniable. If Maddux and Glavine are the two from that class to get in and Frank has to wait, it'll be the writers tip of the cap to those great Braves teams of the 90's which I can't be opposed to because that was a hell of a run.

[TheChrisSamsa]

Is Konerko a HOF'er? He needs at least a few more strong seasons, but he's currently:

 

365 HRs, 1861 hits, 1156 RBIs, .280 avg

 

Or how about...

 

Ordonez -- 289 HRs, 2072 hits, 1204 RBIs, .312 avg

Carlos Lee -- 331 HRs, 1967 hits, 1192 RBIs, .287 avg

 

Mags would have the best chance to get in. He's the only one of this group who has ever really been a dominant force in a lineup, though probably not for long enough or on good enough teams to even get him a sniff of 75% of the BBWAA vote.

[Balta1701]

Mags would have the best chance to get in. He's the only one of this group who has ever really been a dominant force in a lineup, though probably not for long enough or on good enough teams to even get him a sniff of 75% of the BBWAA vote.

Konerko in 2004, 2005, and 2010 was a dominant lineup force, he has 4 all star appearances, and has finished 6th and 5th in the MVP voting. It's actually not as far apart as you'd think. Ordonez has a couple more AS appearances and a #2 MVP finish, but only 1 other season where he finished #8 in the voting. PK14's best OPS+ was 158, Ordonez was 166, and they've each only gotten up there 2 times.

[TheChrisSamsa]

Konerko in 2004, 2005, and 2010 was a dominant lineup force, he has 4 all star appearances, and has finished 6th and 5th in the MVP voting. It's actually not as far apart as you'd think. Ordonez has a couple more AS appearances and a #2 MVP finish, but only 1 other season where he finished #8 in the voting. PK14's best OPS+ was 158, Ordonez was 166, and they've each only gotten up there 2 times.

 

I honestly wouldn't have considered them of the same class of "feared hitters" before your post, but that's probably my homer-ism working against me. Having PK through his prime, and having Mags leave the Sox in the midst of his may have tainted how I look at the players. Thanks for the direct comparison.

 

That said, I really don't think either of them is a HOF player, nor do I think either will quite get over that bump.

Edited January 11, 2011 by PlunketChris

[Balta1701]

I honestly wouldn't have considered them of the same class of "feared hitters" before your post that's probably my homer-ism working against me. Having PK through his prime, and having Mags leave the Sox in the midst of his may have tainted how I look at the players. Thanks for the direct comparison.

 

That said, I really don't think either of them is a HOF player, nor do I think either will quite get over that bump.

I'd say the big difference to me is when they did it. A "feared hitter" in 2002 was putting up quite a bit better numbers than a feared hitter in 2005-2006, and especially compared to 2010. (although Ordonez did have a Hell of a 2007).

 

Edit; not that I'm disagreeing with you on neither being an HOF candidate.

[TheChrisSamsa]

I'd say the big difference to me is when they did it. A "feared hitter" in 2002 was putting up quite a bit better numbers than a feared hitter in 2005-2006, and especially compared to 2010. (although Ordonez did have a Hell of a 2007).

 

Edit; not that I'm disagreeing with you on neither being an HOF candidate.

 

Very good point. 2002 and 2010 are clearly part of different eras of the game. Beyond Pujols and I guess Jeter, I'm not sure that there's a position player playing today who is even close to a lock for the HOF after taking into account steroids and steroid speculation. Maybe I'm missing someone though.

[southsider2k5]

If Ordonez had never blown out his leg, then he would have had a shot...but the era that he played in would likely be a taint on him as well.

 

I am going to bet that Ozzies words after he left Chicago will take him down a notch too.

[Balta1701]

I am going to bet that Ozzies words after he left Chicago will take him down a notch too.

If he put up .950-ish OPS's in 2005 and 2006, Ozzie's words would have been forgotten.

[LittleHurt05]

Great post.

 

Maddux is in first ballot period, and I think Glavine and Thomas will battle just below that level. And with the general questions out there about big hitters in that era, I think that's enough to get Glavine in but Thomas out in their first ballots. Then Thomas goes in 2nd year.

 

I don't know if I see Glavine as a definite first ballot HOF, I view him as borderline 1st ballot as it is. Being up for election at the same time as Maddux can either hurt him or help him. Some voters could vote him in because the two were teammates, some could choose to wait a year because they think Maddux deserves to go in alone, cause he was so good. (Who knows how those dumb voters think). I agree that it will probably be one of the two though, hopefully it is Frank.

[YASNY]

I doubt that Frank gets in on the first ballot for three reasons.

 

1. He spent years as a DH.

2. 1994. He was dominant force having his best season ... then baseball shut down.

3. Giambi's steroid enhanced MVP season cost Frank his 3rd.

 

Second time around, he's in.

[lostfan]

I doubt that Frank gets in on the first ballot for three reasons.

 

1. He spent years as a DH.

2. 1994. He was dominant force having his best season ... then baseball shut down.

3. Giambi's steroid enhanced MVP season cost Frank his 3rd.

 

Second time around, he's in.

frank's 1994 is still looked at with awe even by non-Sox fans. It's kind of difficult to comprehend that a human being actually put up those numbers.

[Quin]

Pertaining to Paulie:

 

Only way he'd get in is if he strings together 2010 repeats over the life of his current contract.

 

I love Paulie, but if that doesn't happen he definitely won't get in.

[NorthSideSox72]

I doubt that Frank gets in on the first ballot for three reasons.

 

1. He spent years as a DH.

2. 1994. He was dominant force having his best season ... then baseball shut down.

3. Giambi's steroid enhanced MVP season cost Frank his 3rd.

 

Second time around, he's in.

YAS, good to see you!

 

And I agree, though I'd add:

 

4. Maddux and Glavine on same ballot, plus whatever holdovers, may make it crowded

5. Even though he's generally considered clean, his whole era for power hitting will always be questioned

6. Frank did not exactly have a fantastic relationship with the media

 

[southsider2k5]

I don't know if I see Glavine as a definite first ballot HOF, I view him as borderline 1st ballot as it is. Being up for election at the same time as Maddux can either hurt him or help him. Some voters could vote him in because the two were teammates, some could choose to wait a year because they think Maddux deserves to go in alone, cause he was so good. (Who knows how those dumb voters think). I agree that it will probably be one of the two though, hopefully it is Frank.

 

I don't see Glavine as a first timer, especially being on at the same time as Maddux. I think when people look at the two of them in the same group, they will see Greg as a big step above Tommy, and leave him off for the most part. Either way, I don't see that stopping Frank.

[Balta1701]

I don't see Glavine as a first timer, especially being on at the same time as Maddux. I think when people look at the two of them in the same group, they will see Greg as a big step above Tommy, and leave him off for the most part. Either way, I don't see that stopping Frank.

Since they spent so long on the same staff, I think a lot of people would vote for the pair together.

[Rowand44]

The fact that Paulie is even getting HoF talk is quite ridiculous imo. Guy has been a very good player through out his career but he's no where near a HoF type.

[LittleHurt05]

Since they spent so long on the same staff, I think a lot of people would vote for the pair together.

 

That could be true.I could also see many voters think that putting Glavine on the same first ballot as Maddux would somehow diminish Maddux's legacy and sort of bad name how truly good he was. (Remember these are HOF voters we are talking about. Some of them didn't vote for Nolan Ryan, Cal Ripken, or Tony Gwynn just to prove a point of who knows what.)

[chw42]

frank's 1994 is still looked at with awe even by non-Sox fans. It's kind of difficult to comprehend that a human being actually put up those numbers.

 

Those are probably the best non-steroid numbers I've ever seen. Albert Pujols hasn't even pulled off a .497 wOBA yet.

[Milkman delivers]

YAS, good to see you!

 

And I agree, though I'd add:

 

4. Maddux and Glavine on same ballot, plus whatever holdovers, may make it crowded

5. Even though he's generally considered clean, his whole era for power hitting will always be questioned

6. Frank did not exactly have a fantastic relationship with the media

 

That is, by far, the worst reason for any player to not get votes. I understand that you're just making a point (and a valid one, at that), but a player's relationship with the media should have absolutely no bearing on his chances at getting into the HOF.

[southsider2k5]

The fact that Paulie is even getting HoF talk is quite ridiculous imo. Guy has been a very good player through out his career but he's no where near a HoF type.

 

I agree 100%. When I think of the best 1Bs during Paulies career, I never think of Paulie anywhere near those guys.

[southsider2k5]

That could be true.I could also see many voters think that putting Glavine on the same first ballot as Maddux would somehow diminish Maddux's legacy and sort of bad name how truly good he was. (Remember these are HOF voters we are talking about. Some of them didn't vote for Nolan Ryan, Cal Ripken, or Tony Gwynn just to prove a point of who knows what.)

 

That is my thought process. I could see a lot of writers feeling that they put these two on equal footing by voting for both of them at the same time on the first ballot.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Those are probably the best non-steroid numbers I've ever seen. Albert Pujols hasn't even pulled off a .497 wOBA yet.

 

Bagwell came pretty damn close at .491. But yeah, what Frank was doing in '94 was beyond human. I'll never get over that season. It was one of the greatest years ever and will never know what would've happened.

[witesoxfan]

frank's 1994 is still looked at with awe even by non-Sox fans. It's kind of difficult to comprehend that a human being actually put up those numbers.

 

Frank's 1.217 OPS that season is the 18th best OPS of all time. Take out Bonds' 4 seasons on that list and McGwire's 1, and it becomes the 13th best of all time. Of those 13 totals, they came from 5 players: Babe Ruth 7 times, Ted Williams 2 times, Rogers Hornsby 1 time, Lou Gehrig 1 time, and Jimmie Foxx 1 time. You don't fluke your way into a 1.217 OPS.

 

(of course, Bagwell had a 1.201 OPS that season too, but that's a full two spots behind Thomas)