Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in head

[Controlled Chaos]

What is wrong with these people. It's not a pep rally.

[The Beast]

Good speech. He didn't slam that psycho Palin for her remarks, took away the focus from the killer, and delivered a powerful message. Too bad none of you will encourage in better discourse with each other. Oh well. Politics, like the seemingly useless war in Iraq to "protect us" is a battlefield.

[BigSqwert]

Good speech. He didn't slam that psycho Palin for her remarks, took away the focus from the killer, and delivered a powerful message. Too bad none of you will encourage in better discourse with each other. Oh well. Politics, like the seemingly useless war in Iraq to "protect us" is a battlefield.

 

[mr_genius]

What is wrong with these people. It's not a pep rally.

 

Obama didn't look comfortable with the atmosphere at first. it really was more of political pep rally setting than a memorial service.

Edited January 13, 2011 by mr_genius

[kjshoe04]

Obama didn't look comfortable with the atmosphere at first. it really was more of political pep rally setting than a memorial service.

A few times there I thought he was going to say something. He didn't seem pleased with all the cheering.

[caulfield12]

 

I thought I was listening to a "compassionate Conservative" Sunday school lesson...rather than the President.

 

It was actually almost the perfect tone.

 

Might have been better had they allowed Kyl or McCain to speak as well, would have taken away from the suggestions it was a glorified campaign rally. Those college campuses ae Obama's bread and butter spots, and his staff knows it.

 

I think MOST of the cheering was because of Daniel Hernandez (the UAriz student who essentially saved Giffords' life) and not so much because of the partisan nature of the speakers (Brewer, Napolitano, Holder).

 

Most of the "speeches" were Bible quotations/recitations.

 

I do think the UAriz president (Robert Shelton) went a bit overboard praising/introducing Obama, but other than that, there were no clear mistakes.

 

Contrasting the victims' roles (grandparents/parents, brother, son/daughter, community servant) with the tapestry of the American community fabric was a brilliant rhetorical flourish at the end...he was in danger of sermonizing too much but then the part about Dallas Green's grand-daughter and how America should be the country as children perceive it, through their eyes, it's the closest he has come to connecting emotionally/viscerally with the American public since I've been listening to him. If he would have lost it or teared up, someone would have accused him of manipulation, but he was as close as he can come to Bill Clinton in a speech, and somewhere between John F.Kennedy/Cuomo/Jackson/MLK/FDR and where he usually resides, obscured by his intellectual distance and cool aloofness.

[BigSqwert]

Obama didn't look comfortable with the atmosphere at first. it really was more of political pep rally setting than a memorial service.

One of the more ludicrous things I've read in a long time.

[Balta1701]

One of the more ludicrous things I've read in a long time.

I disagree with you here. I don't think the mood came across correctly. Yeah, there were points that celebration and cheering was appropriate (Gabby opened her eyes), but there were points I just wanted the crowd to be quiet.

[BigSqwert]

I disagree with you here. I don't think the mood came across correctly. Yeah, there were points that celebration and cheering was appropriate (Gabby opened her eyes), but there were points I just wanted the crowd to be quiet.

Political pep rally? I didn't hear anything about policies, strategy, or politics in general.

[Jenksismyhero]

Political pep rally? I didn't hear anything about policies, strategy, or politics in general.

 

you don't think all the clapping/cheering was similar to that kind of setting?

[StrangeSox]

you don't think all the clapping/cheering was similar to that kind of setting?

 

Wasn't it kind of a "rah rah go country we can recover!" pep rally?

 

edit: I'm just asking, I didn't watch.

Edited January 13, 2011 by StrangeSox

[GoSox05]

Wasn't it kind of a "rah rah go country we can recover!" pep rally?

 

edit: I'm just asking, I didn't watch.

 

 

Yes. It was a we shall overcome, we are better than this.

[Jenksismyhero]

Wasn't it kind of a "rah rah go country we can recover!" pep rally?

 

edit: I'm just asking, I didn't watch.

 

Sort of. There were parts like that, and I think the applause was appropriate. But it also tended to be like a state of the union address where random applause broke out where it wasn't needed and/or simply inappropriate.

[NorthSideSox72]

Sort of. There were parts like that, and I think the applause was appropriate. But it also tended to be like a state of the union address where random applause broke out where it wasn't needed and/or simply inappropriate.

I saw only highlights, but I have to agree that some parts of it seemed a little uncomfortably cheer-like. And I don't even mean Obama's speech - it was the crowd. Just seemed a little strange.

 

[Controlled Chaos]

Political pep rally? I didn't hear anything about policies, strategy, or politics in general.

He said political pep rally "setting" and it was with all the cheering. There was even whistling and screaming when it was silent. It was just bizarre. I thought the intro was over the top for the occasion and kind of lead to that atmosphere early in the speech. Anyway, I thought Obama handled it well and it was an eloquent speech. On one of caulfields points, yes, some may have accused him of manipulation if he would have lost it or teared up, just as they did to Bush at the MOH ceremony a few years back, but that someone wouldn't have been me. Presidents are human and I believe their emotions are real when it comes to death. I lost it when they showed that little girl and were talking about her. With children of my own, that stuff just tears me apart and I think most parents are the same way, including the Prez. Nothing worse than shutting of the shining light in an innocent child.

[caulfield12]

A couple of points...it was deliberately designed that way, as a "uniting" event (by the University of Arizona) for the community and that has something to do with the pep rally aspect of it, a lot of people thought it was a "memorial service" and it wasn't, although there were certainly elements of that as well with the Old and New Testament recitations.

 

Someone made a comment that the hospital was only one mile away where all of the survivors were recovering. With 13-14,000 in McHale and almost the same amount at the football stadium with big screens, there was a sense that "they wanted to be heard" as far across the city as they could...no city wants to be thought of as the "OK Corral" or "Tombstone," and yes, solemnity had its place, and the Native American invocation/pray ceremony was a bit too much, but overall, for anyone in Tucson and Arizona feeling down, it was pretty hard not to be uplifted. And, as I noted, the single biggest cheer was for student Daniel Hernandez and related to his speech, moreso than anything else, the students and community were proud of his actions, and he was a volunteer in Giffords' office, not to mention both Hernandez and the student president were well acquainted with Giffords personally and the fact that one of her aides (Gabe Zimmerman) died, I think that also had a lot to do with the feelings and reactions.

 

Now there's even accusations coming out against John Boehner that he was invited (at the last second) to ride along on AF One and he refused. I don't think it was the administration's intention to embarass him....apparently one of his former aides is in the running for Michael Steele's position and there was a previously scheduled fundraiser on his agenda, and he in all fairness was part of 8 hours of "kind words" in the House and the prayer service at lunchtime. This isn't Newt Gingrich whining over having to sit in the back of the plane.

 

For what it's worth, John McCain was even crying. Not sure about Mr. Kyl, he of the recent attempt to block the Russian/Start nuclear arms agreement.

Edited January 13, 2011 by caulfield12

[Chet Lemon]

Tucson Republican Mayor Bob Walkup told Politico that the mood of the rally was appropriate.

 

"If there was one thing that was appropriate, it was cheering," he said. "I've been in the hospital, and the people that are healing, they want to hear people cheer."

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20028447-503544.html

[lostfan]

He said political pep rally "setting" and it was with all the cheering. There was even whistling and screaming when it was silent. It was just bizarre. I thought the intro was over the top for the occasion and kind of lead to that atmosphere early in the speech. Anyway, I thought Obama handled it well and it was an eloquent speech. On one of caulfields points, yes, some may have accused him of manipulation if he would have lost it or teared up, just as they did to Bush at the MOH ceremony a few years back, but that someone wouldn't have been me. Presidents are human and I believe their emotions are real when it comes to death. I lost it when they showed that little girl and were talking about her. With children of my own, that stuff just tears me apart and I think most parents are the same way, including the Prez. Nothing worse than shutting of the shining light in an innocent child.

+1

[BigSqwert]

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[southsider2k5]

So I waited a few days to see if this would pass, but finally I decided that I should speak up.

 

At least in the beginning I don't think I have made any secrets about how I felt the coverage of this event went. I found the accusations and the beliefs that somehow certain people and politics were somehow responsible, and then still somehow included in this event disgusting. It really disturbs me that so many people could point a finger before the bullets had hardly finished echoing in this event, and then feel no remorse for doing so. In fact instead of recognizing their judgments to be in error, have gone even further to continue to justify those beliefs, all of the way to the national stage. Despite all of the seeming hope, there has been no connections made to the Palin's, Limbaugh's, and Beck's of the world. In fact the opposite has been true, as all who have spoken with links to the shooter have said very clearly that he paid attention to none of them. Yet this finger pointing has continued en masse. It honestly scares me that so many people are willing to indict an entire political party, with clear evidence to exonerate them. This whole story keeps being told with the full belief that somehow the Republicans are a part of this, without having had any connection what-so-ever to this case.

 

At the end of the the attempt at justifying the Republicans to this is because somehow their behaviors and deeds could be taken and interpreted as hateful rhetoric and be used as a reason to commit violence. I am going to say today, that I have felt more hate, more anger, and more threatened by the way this story has been treated, from the national level, all of the way down to many of the individuals right here on Soxtalk, than anything I have ever gotten from the Tea Party, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, or anyone else on the right fringes. I have felt like pure hatred has flowed out here in the open, and been excused for no real reason, other than the same political hatred. I feel like these fringes have been held up as the same sorts of stereotypical figures that have been used to dehumanize large groups of people throughout history. Add to that the repeated tying of anyone who sees themselves as Republicans to those figures, and I feel like people here are pointing the finger directly at me, at others here, and at the entire Republican Party for acts that we had, as has been well reported, nothing to do with.

 

And again, remember, the whole reason people like Palin get mentioned here is how people could interpret them, and how they could react from that. Well this post is here today to tell you that I personally feel more hate being created from the reaction to the senseless killing spree. That is how I interpret the media, and the talk from people about this case. It has made my angry to the point of not even wanting to talk about it, because of the insinuations that have gone on with this. Associating an entire party with murder isn't helpful, its hateful. Its as bad as any of the other -Isms that have negative connotations associated with them, for no good reason, other than to subhumanize them. If people really want to stop building the culture of hateful rhetoric, and us versus them, forget the national level, start looking in your own glass house.

 

I know the howls of protest will follow, but at the end of the day, this is how I feel, and I doubt I am alone in this, judging by the posts from people who associate themselves with the Republicans.

[NorthSideSox72]

So I waited a few days to see if this would pass, but finally I decided that I should speak up.

 

At least in the beginning I don't think I have made any secrets about how I felt the coverage of this event went. I found the accusations and the beliefs that somehow certain people and politics were somehow responsible, and then still somehow included in this event disgusting. It really disturbs me that so many people could point a finger before the bullets had hardly finished echoing in this event, and then feel no remorse for doing so. In fact instead of recognizing their judgments to be in error, have gone even further to continue to justify those beliefs, all of the way to the national stage. Despite all of the seeming hope, there has been no connections made to the Palin's, Limbaugh's, and Beck's of the world. In fact the opposite has been true, as all who have spoken with links to the shooter have said very clearly that he paid attention to none of them. Yet this finger pointing has continued en masse. It honestly scares me that so many people are willing to indict an entire political party, with clear evidence to exonerate them. This whole story keeps being told with the full belief that somehow the Republicans are a part of this, without having had any connection what-so-ever to this case.

 

At the end of the the attempt at justifying the Republicans to this is because somehow their behaviors and deeds could be taken and interpreted as hateful rhetoric and be used as a reason to commit violence. I am going to say today, that I have felt more hate, more anger, and more threatened by the way this story has been treated, from the national level, all of the way down to many of the individuals right here on Soxtalk, than anything I have ever gotten from the Tea Party, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, or anyone else on the right fringes. I have felt like pure hatred has flowed out here in the open, and been excused for no real reason, other than the same political hatred. I feel like these fringes have been held up as the same sorts of stereotypical figures that have been used to dehumanize large groups of people throughout history. Add to that the repeated tying of anyone who sees themselves as Republicans to those figures, and I feel like people here are pointing the finger directly at me, at others here, and at the entire Republican Party for acts that we had, as has been well reported, nothing to do with.

 

And again, remember, the whole reason people like Palin get mentioned here is how people could interpret them, and how they could react from that. Well this post is here today to tell you that I personally feel more hate being created from the reaction to the senseless killing spree. That is how I interpret the media, and the talk from people about this case. It has made my angry to the point of not even wanting to talk about it, because of the insinuations that have gone on with this. Associating an entire party with murder isn't helpful, its hateful. Its as bad as any of the other -Isms that have negative connotations associated with them, for no good reason, other than to subhumanize them. If people really want to stop building the culture of hateful rhetoric, and us versus them, forget the national level, start looking in your own glass house.

 

I know the howls of protest will follow, but at the end of the day, this is how I feel, and I doubt I am alone in this, judging by the posts from people who associate themselves with the Republicans.

 

Thanks for writing this. And I agree with you about the vitriol being spread. By the way, you think its bad in here - its not. Read the comments sections of news sites, talk to people around you - its a lot worse out there than in here.

 

The guy is mentally unstable. He's not left or right, he's just nuts. The fact that the Palins, Becks, etc. of the world are spewing hate (which they are, and this is where I might disagree with you), certainly creates a bad atmosphere, but they have no responsibility whatsoever in this.

 

[StrangeSox]

In what sort of world would you not expect Palin's map and the violent rhetoric directed specifically at Giffords by some not to be brought up and questioned after someone puts a bullet through her head?

 

Are/were some rushing to conclusions to make political points or confirm pre-existing biases? Absolutely. But it isn't a problem solely of the left, and I think it's ridiculous that many on the right are painting themselves as victims here. Look at some of the vitriol Rush has spewed. Look at what Republicans are saying in comment sections of news articles or on conservatives forums and blogs. Yeah, you're seeing the same things on HuffPo or TPM, and yeah, I also find it disgusting. But it's no different. Label this crazy person as a member of your political enemies and use it to justify and intensify your hatred and dehumanization of them.

 

But to say this is truly frightening? Pure hatred flowing out in the open? Isn't that going a bit far? What if this guy was a Muslim or had said his favorite book was the Koran? Even if there were no real ties to radical Islam, no ties in his ideology and what drove him to kill to his religion, would we honestly be shocked to see this brought up over and over and over again in the media? To be used by many as an excuse to justify and intensify their hatred and dehumanization of Muslims?

 

Maybe I'm just too cynical, but this is just "business as usual" to me. Perhaps those on the right are not quite as used to being painted with such a broad brush as those on left and are shocked and dismayed at how unfair and unjust and unreasonable it is.

[jasonxctf]

I'll add something to this discussion.

 

If at the end of the day, this tragedy leads to laws prohibiting protestors or people from showing up to political events with rifles or pistols at their side while at the same time turning down the heat on some of this political flamethrowing, then we will most likely be preventing future occurances like this from ever happening again. (plus the secret service will thank you for making their lives slightly easier)

 

On a sidenote, there was an interesting show on cable recently about "inside the secret service". It tells the story of one former agent who nearly killed a high school kid back in the 60's/70's i think, for pointing a water pistol at the president's motorcade, on a dare from his friends. He was a sharpshooter who was 1/2 second away from pulling the trigger when he realized that the gun was red, not black, which allowed him to pause for a second.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'll add something to this discussion.

 

If at the end of the day, this tragedy leads to laws prohibiting protestors or people from showing up to political events with rifles or pistols at their side while at the same time turning down the heat on some of this political flamethrowing, then we will most likely be preventing future occurances like this from ever happening again. (plus the secret service will thank you for making their lives slightly easier)

 

On a sidenote, there was an interesting show on cable recently about "inside the secret service". It tells the story of one former agent who nearly killed a high school kid back in the 60's/70's i think, for pointing a water pistol at the president's motorcade, on a dare from his friends. He was a sharpshooter who was 1/2 second away from pulling the trigger when he realized that the gun was red, not black, which allowed him to pause for a second.

Such a law would do nothing to help the USSS. You have to understand that the law already allows for temporary restrictions on weapons around protected individuals. You need physical security to actually implement that, not new laws. Further, if the law's purpose is prevent future acts, you gain nothing - people who were going to try are going to try and would be prosecuted as it is, we don't need a new law for that.

 

[jasonxctf]

i think you mis-understood my point or i mis stated it.

 

Take those people with readily displayed rifles at the President's events recently. While the USSS certainly takes a look at them for protecting the President, I'm not naive enough to think that someone displaying a fire arm in open public, is really trying to pull off an assaniation plot on an elected official.

 

What I'm saying, is that during their protests, they run into counter protestors and things turn ugly (say Rand Paul supporter stomping on head ugly) by keeping these guns out of the mix, will certainly save some lives amongst these people in the future.

Edited January 14, 2011 by jasonxctf