Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in head

[NorthSideSox72]

I want to make this perfectly clear:

 

No. One. Is. Blaming. Palin.

 

Hope that helped.

 

Except YOU, with your very first post in this thread:

 

this is what happens when you encourage an atmosphere of radical, irrational fear and hatred and use ridiculous rhetoric like Sarah Palin does. Unbelievable. It was just a matter of time I guess.

 

[StrangeSox]

You're trying to draw the line without actually drawing it. Anyone with half a brain can see that.

 

My post about the video games was simply pointing out the difference between trying to link violent games or music in an attempt to get people to tone down violent games or music and linking violent political rhetoric to a violent political action in an attempt to get people to tone down violent political rhetoric. Not assigning blame. I apologize if that wasn't very clear, I can see how it would be taken otherwise.

[Reddy]

Except YOU, with your very first post in this thread:

Did you NOT read the rest of my posts? I backed off and admitted that as a knee-jerk shouldnt-have-said reaction

 

really man?

Edited January 11, 2011 by Reddy

[Y2HH]

I want to make this perfectly clear:

 

No. One. Is. Blaming. Palin.

 

Hope that helped.

 

It would help greatly if they didn't say they weren't blaming Palin yet pointing to her very specific target map on a constant basis.

 

That's the same as this:

 

The sky is NOT gray when it rains!

 

It's a mix of black and white!

 

Look, if you want t blame her, man the f*** up and say it...because I KNOW some of you want too. You may not be saying it here, but you know that a small part of you, deep down, WISHES that this ends up pointing to that map and Palin in specific when all is said an done.

[Reddy]

It would help greatly if they didn't say they weren't blaming Palin yet pointing to her very specific target map on a constant basis.

 

That's the same as this:

 

The sky is NOT gray when it rains!

 

It's a mix of black and white!

 

Look, if you want t blame her, man the f*** up and say it...because I KNOW some of you want too. You may not be saying it here, but you know that a small part of you, deep down, WISHES that this ends up pointing to that map and Palin in specific when all is said an done.

i'm saying she's part of the culture that can lead these things to happen.

 

this guy was/is insane, and the political climate may or may not have caused him to kill. that being said, why shouldn't we take this opportunity to tone it down? i guess is my real point in all this...

[iamshack]

i'm saying she's part of the culture that can lead these things to happen.

 

this guy was/is insane, and the political climate may or may not have caused him to kill. that being said, why shouldn't we take this opportunity to tone it down? i guess is my real point in all this...

See, I just disagree with that.

 

There is a point where some people are just absolutely bats*** crazy and are going to do bats*** crazy things, because they got some thought put in their mind somehow, some way. In the meantime we are going to all curb our rhetoric and behavior until we can hardly express ourselves anymore, because someone might misunderstand it and go running around with a gun and kill someone.

 

Terrible things happen in this world, and when you become a politician, you put yourself at a much greater risk to take the brunt end of it, unfortunately.

 

 

[Reddy]

See, I just disagree with that.

 

There is a point where some people are just absolutely bats*** crazy and are going to do bats*** crazy things, because they got some thought put in their mind somehow, some way. In the meantime we are going to all curb our rhetoric and behavior until we can hardly express ourselves anymore, because someone might misunderstand it and go running around with a gun and kill someone.

 

Terrible things happen in this world, and when you become a politician, you put yourself at a much greater risk to take the brunt end of it, unfortunately.

we really need gun imagery in politics? we need to be able to say things like "make [my opponent] afraid to leave his house"?

Edited January 11, 2011 by Reddy

[BigSqwert]

See, I just disagree with that.

 

There is a point where some people are just absolutely bats*** crazy and are going to do bats*** crazy things, because they got some thought put in their mind somehow, some way. In the meantime we are going to all curb our rhetoric and behavior until we can hardly express ourselves anymore, because someone might misunderstand it and go running around with a gun and kill someone.

 

Terrible things happen in this world, and when you become a politician, you put yourself at a much greater risk to take the brunt end of it, unfortunately.

You really can't see a scenario where someone who's lost their job and is struggling keeps getting told "take your country back!", "reload!", "they're going to kill your grandmother!", "Death panels!", "communist/nazi/socialists are taking over!" might somehow be affected by that being beaten into their head?

 

And hearing/seeing something like this at a political rally:

 

"the progressive socialists have been chipping away at our foundations. Regardless, the founders made sure we had plan B (holds up his gun). You know what that is."

 

 

Edited January 11, 2011 by BigSqwert

[iamshack]

we really need gun imagery in politics? we need to be able to say things like "make [my opponent] afraid to leave his house"?

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT trying to defend some of the ridiculous things that woman does and says.

 

But we are never going to be able to use a target metaphor anymore? I can never say "I have him in my sights" or "within the crosshairs"? Honestly, those metaphors are so commonplace people rarely even associate them with guns anymore. I've never shot a gun in my life, and yet, I think the metaphor is a quite valuable one.

 

I'm not advocating the use of symbols the way she used them in the map; I am willing to admit that was a bit vitriolic and morbid. But at what point do you draw the line then? Where does the censorship stop? What metaphors are ok to use and which are not, and how and who draws that line?

Edited January 11, 2011 by iamshack

[HuskyCaucasian]

Doctor: Giffords' 'Prognosis For Survival Is 100 Percent'

 

That's so great to hear.

[BigSqwert]

Doctor: Giffords' 'Prognosis For Survival Is 100 Percent'

 

That's so great to hear.

indeed

[Y2HH]

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT trying to defend some of the ridiculous things that woman does and says.

 

But we are never going to be able to use a target metaphor anymore? I can never say "I have him in my sights" or "within the crosshairs"? Honestly, those metaphors are so commonplace people rarely even associate them with guns anymore. I've never shot a gun in my life, and yet, I think the metaphor is a quite valuable one.

 

I'm not advocating the use of symbols the way she used them in the map; I am willing to admit that was a bit vitriolic and morbid. But at what point do you draw the line then? Where does the censorship stop? What metaphors are ok to use and which are not, and how and who draws that line?

 

That's the problem, it doesn't stop.

 

After these metaphors are no longer usable, they'll move on to video games, movies, and anything else that might plant bad ideas in a psycho paths head. It's silly silly silly...and many of you are expounding on that silliness in that you actually believe that metaphors like this are causal...meh.

[BigSqwert]

I blame Reagan for eliminating the Fairness Doctrine in news media for creating this cesspool of vitriol on the air.

[Y2HH]

indeed

 

IF she can make a solid recovery, it's good news. If she has to live 1/4th of a life, it may not be.

[Y2HH]

I blame Reagan for eliminating the Fairness Doctrine in news media for creating this cesspool of vitriol on the air.

 

I blame someone else who did it even better than Reagan did.

[iamshack]

You really can't see a scenario where someone who's lost their job and is struggling keeps getting told "take your country back!", "reload!", "they're going to kill your grandmother!", "Death panels!", "communist/nazi/socialists are taking over!" might somehow be affected by that being beaten into their head?

 

And hearing/seeing something like this at a political rally:

Honestly, it's idiots like these that cause me to avoid politics altogether, Sqwert. I can't tolerate the lunacy.

 

It just irks me that when something bad happens, everyone looks around with shock and horror that something such as this was possible, when it has been clear for sooooo long that common sense and decency have been entirely absent in politics well before it came to this.

[Jenksismyhero]

Why is it hard for people to seperate these two things? I see people on the left and people on the right incapable of understanding that BOTH of these statements:

 

--Killer is a nutjob and Palin/Limbaugh/Matthews/Whomever are NOT responsible for this

 

--Recent political rhetoric from highline people is making the atmosphere more conducive to problems like this

 

are TRUE. Not just one or the other, and not as a direct causality.

 

Do you have proof of this? Because this is the part I don't agree with. This is the part where I think the media (both sides pointing the finger at the other side) is making s*** up. Palin and politicians don't belong in this conversation, period. This guy was crazy. End of story. That's the only conclusion here. Until some EVIDENCE comes out that he was motivated by that crap, it has nothing to do with it.

 

Bringing up the "let's use this tragedy to tone down the rhetoric" is just a cop out. It's blaming what some asshole did on how we speak about/to one another. It's fabricated bulls***. I point back to my quote of Thomas Jefferson. Blame him. Blame Obama for using a gun quote. Blame US history. I can bring up a million examples and somehow relate it to this tragedy, but it doesn't mean it's the cause or that it played any part WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Continuing to bring this s*** up is purely political. You want to point the finger and say "these assholes on the right/left are the reason this happens. If they only spoke nice to each other this stuff wouldn't happen." BULLs***. It would, because some people are just CRAZY.

[BigSqwert]

Do you have proof of this? Because this is the part I don't agree with. This is the part where I think the media (both sides pointing the finger at the other side) is making s*** up. Palin and politicians don't belong in this conversation, period. This guy was crazy. End of story. That's the only conclusion here. Until some EVIDENCE comes out that he was motivated by that crap, it has nothing to do with it.

 

Bringing up the "let's use this tragedy to tone down the rhetoric" is just a cop out. It's blaming what some asshole did on how we speak about/to one another. It's fabricated bulls***. I point back to my quote of Thomas Jefferson. Blame him. Blame Obama for using a gun quote. Blame US history. I can bring up a million examples and somehow relate it to this tragedy, but it doesn't mean it's the cause or that it played any part WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Continuing to bring this s*** up is purely political. You want to point the finger and say "these assholes on the right/left are the reason this happens. If they only spoke nice to each other this stuff wouldn't happen." BULLs***. It would, because some people are just CRAZY.

 

Luckily you've figured it all out for everyone and we can now close this thread.

[Rex Kickass]

And on the last line edit, why is Kos scrubbing his site then? Because that kind of crap is STILL going on.

 

Diary users have the ability to delete their own diaries. That doesn't mean that Kos scrubbed the site at all.

[Jenksismyhero]

Luckily you've figured it all out for everyone and we can now close this thread.

 

Great!

 

Also,

 

You may not agree with some of the posts in here but you are adding nothing whatsoever to the discussion with posts like this.

 

Edited January 11, 2011 by Jenksismybitch

[iamshack]

Do you have proof of this? Because this is the part I don't agree with. This is the part where I think the media (both sides pointing the finger at the other side) is making s*** up. Palin and politicians don't belong in this conversation, period. This guy was crazy. End of story. That's the only conclusion here. Until some EVIDENCE comes out that he was motivated by that crap, it has nothing to do with it.

 

Bringing up the "let's use this tragedy to tone down the rhetoric" is just a cop out. It's blaming what some asshole did on how we speak about/to one another. It's fabricated bulls***. I point back to my quote of Thomas Jefferson. Blame him. Blame Obama for using a gun quote. Blame US history. I can bring up a million examples and somehow relate it to this tragedy, but it doesn't mean it's the cause or that it played any part WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Continuing to bring this s*** up is purely political. You want to point the finger and say "these assholes on the right/left are the reason this happens. If they only spoke nice to each other this stuff wouldn't happen." BULLs***. It would, because some people are just CRAZY.

See, this is just so perfect.

 

A woman has been shot by a lunatic. Both sides are tripping over one another to see who can feel worse about it....for 30 minutes or so...then they immediately revert back to blaming the other for who spews the vitriol more, thereby being somehow responsible for this mess.

 

The system is just out of control. It's not violent imagery or metaphors that are to blame for this, BUT THE PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES that are. The lack of common sense and decency in order to maintain "party ideals" or whatever the hell republicans and democrats are claiming they are fighting for these days is what is responsible for this.

[BigSqwert]

Great!

 

Also,

touche

[Y2HH]

See, this is just so perfect.

 

A woman has been shot by a lunatic. Both sides are tripping over one another to see who can feel worse about it....for 30 minutes or so...then they immediately revert back to blaming the other for who spews the vitriol more, thereby being somehow responsible for this mess.

 

The system is just out of control. It's not violent imagery or metaphors that are to blame for this, BUT THE PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES that are. The lack of common sense and decency in order to maintain "party ideals" or whatever the hell republicans and democrats are claiming they are fighting for these days is what is responsible for this.

 

This is why I despise both parties. The very idea of party politics plays into the ignorance of people. I mean, you HAVE to be ignorant to be a party player in politics, because there is no way, given the number of issues that exist, that you can side with one or the other 100% of the time.

[NorthSideSox72]

Do you have proof of this? Because this is the part I don't agree with. This is the part where I think the media (both sides pointing the finger at the other side) is making s*** up. Palin and politicians don't belong in this conversation, period. This guy was crazy. End of story. That's the only conclusion here. Until some EVIDENCE comes out that he was motivated by that crap, it has nothing to do with it.

 

Bringing up the "let's use this tragedy to tone down the rhetoric" is just a cop out. It's blaming what some asshole did on how we speak about/to one another. It's fabricated bulls***. I point back to my quote of Thomas Jefferson. Blame him. Blame Obama for using a gun quote. Blame US history. I can bring up a million examples and somehow relate it to this tragedy, but it doesn't mean it's the cause or that it played any part WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Continuing to bring this s*** up is purely political. You want to point the finger and say "these assholes on the right/left are the reason this happens. If they only spoke nice to each other this stuff wouldn't happen." BULLs***. It would, because some people are just CRAZY.

I think you must have been thinking of someone else's post. How can I have proof of a statement about the general state of discussion? And did you not see that in every single post, I've said clearly - in fact right in the line above the one you highlighted - that the two are not causal? That was my whole point, which you missed.

 

[BigSqwert]

iamshack, Matt Tiabbi echoes your sentiment:

Most all of us are grownups and can handle extreme argument, but clearly some people are not, and obviously I'm not just talking about Jared Loughner.

 

To see that, all you have to do is attend almost any family gathering, where once-loving relationships have been completely lost because of the overheated right-left culture war. If real family relationships are being lost to this kind of political debate, if someone on TV can reach into your living room and break up your family without knowing anything about you or even knowing that you exist, that tells us that this mechanized mass-media rhetoric has been almost unimaginably successful at dehumanizing whole classes of people.