Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in head

[Jenksismyhero]

I'd love it if someone who is well-educated like yourself, would avoid taking people's statements to extremes that you know full well they didn't intend.

 

I don't remember the poster you are quoting saying anything about banning anything, except perhaps guns at a certain distance from officials (which I don't agree with).

 

No one is using that logic. Not anyone here, at least.

 

Might be extreme yes, but politicians ARE claiming that they'll introduce legislation to ban speech about political figures as a result of this. Balta just posted a story about the guns. I'm confident there will be more introduced over the coming days.

 

Either way, the logic is me blaming movies and movie stars for the Reagan assassination attempt. Clearly neither had ANYTHING to do with it. Hinckley was just crazy, just like this guy was.

 

[Balta1701]

Might be extreme yes, but politicians ARE claiming that they'll introduce legislation to ban speech about political figures as a result of this. Balta just posted a story about the guns. I'm confident there will be more introduced over the coming days.

You are correct, there is a proposed bill that would ban using violent symbols when referring to members of Congress. I would oppose said bill.

 

However, I would say that this event makes a strong case for expanded gun control and expanded mental health services.

[iamshack]

You are correct, there is a proposed bill that would ban using violent symbols when referring to members of Congress. I would oppose said bill.

 

However, I would say that this event makes a strong case for expanded gun control and expanded mental health services.

I would say it makes a strong case for better parenting.

[Balta1701]

I would say it makes a strong case for better parenting.

What information are you using to judge their parenting skills?

[iamshack]

What information are you using to judge their parenting skills?

The fact that their son killed several people at a grocery store for no reason other than that he did not agree with their political beliefs.

[Jenksismyhero]

No, I am not. I think I've been clear in this thread, but perhaps not. What I have said was:

 

--There is already, and will always be, some anger in the political realm

--This shooter is bats*** crazy, and there will always be some bats*** crazy people

--The more vitriolic rhetoric and hazy hints at violence are spewed by people in the political world (candidates, officials, talking heads), the more likely it is that someone already crazy will go over the top

--If and when that does occur, it is 100% the fault of the person who actually did it

--People who are voices to a political audience should, IMO, take some responsibility for their words and try to be civil, which I feel lowers the risk level

--Those same people have every right to not listen to my advice, and act like imbeciles

 

All the above I believe are true, and I see no conflict amongst them.

 

No one is stretching other than you, in attempting to paint others as being on some extreme they clearly are not.

 

And my response has always been that (1) I do not believe your third point is true at all, and (2) by claiming that it is you're still, in some part, saying that vitriolic rhetoric plays a part in this. I just don't see how it does any more than a million other things this guy could have come across to set him off.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

The fact that their son killed several people at a grocery store for no reason other than that he did not agree with their political beliefs.

So what exactly did the parents do wrong then?

[NorthSideSox72]

And my response has always been that (1) I do not believe your third point is true at all, and (2) by claiming that it is you're still, in some part, saying that sort of rhetoric plays a part in this. I just don't see how it does any more than a million other things this guy could have come across to set him off.

You are welcome to believe your #1, but on #2, no, I quite clearly am not. I believe in personal responsibility. Therefore, even if someone is in a s***ty situation, that is not an excuse for violence, and the fault rests with them. But s***ty situations will make those violent acts more likely to occur. Both things are true.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

The fact that their son killed several people at a grocery store for no reason other than that he did not agree with their political beliefs.

So, you are a tabula rosa guy then, eh?

 

[southsider2k5]

I maintain that the only reason he targeted her in specific is because of his locale, and he had past meetings with her that didn't go well in his eyes. If he had lived in another state, it probably would have happened there, instead. I don't think it had anything to do with a target map whatsoever.

 

Especially because I have seen more politicians killed on primetime TV, than I have by Republicans. If there were any connection at all between this guy, and any of the right wing hate that is getting spewed here, I could buy it being an important part of the argument, but we have nothing, I repeat NOTHING, to make that connection on, except political hatred. And just like everything on the filibuster, that is exactly where this thread went. Nothing besides the right wing can be at fault for this, and that is just bold-faced ignorance.

[iamshack]

So what exactly did the parents do wrong then?

I'm not even going to engage you in this.

[southsider2k5]

Doctor: Giffords' 'Prognosis For Survival Is 100 Percent'

 

That's so great to hear.

 

Glad to hear it. Hopefully she fully recovers.

[iamshack]

So, you are a tabula rosa guy then, eh?

?

 

Tabula Rasa?

[Balta1701]

I'm not even going to engage you in this.

I'll grant its entirely plausible that you're right...I just don't have the information at present that would allow me to make the step that you made. Out of the truly violent, sociopathic killers that we have in recent history...some have come from bad homes, some have been from fine circumstances. The Columbine killers, for example...they were from seemingly normal homes.

[Balta1701]

?

 

Tabula Rasa?

Tabula rasa is the epistemological theory that individuals are born without built-in mental content and that their knowledge comes from experience and perception. Generally proponents of the tabula rasa thesis favour the "nurture" side of the nature versus nurture debate, when it comes to aspects of one's personality, social and emotional behaviour, and intelligence. The term in Latin equates to the English "blank slate" (which refers to writing on a slate sheet in chalk) but comes from the Roman tabula or wax tablet, used for notes, which was blanked by heating the wax and then smoothing it to give a tabula rasa.

Link

[iamshack]

I'll grant its entirely plausible that you're right...I just don't have the information at present that would allow me to make the step that you made. Out of the truly violent, sociopathic killers that we have in recent history...some have come from bad homes, some have been from fine circumstances. The Columbine killers, for example...they were from seemingly normal homes.

I understand that. And I wasn't trying to insinuate that his parents are to blame in any way for what their son did.

 

I was making a general statement that, instead of always trying to throw money at the symptoms or the peripheries of the problem, we need to look more at the root of it.

 

 

[iamshack]

Link

I thought that was what he was referring to, but he put Rosa, which is the name of some data protection company or something.

 

I was thoroughly confused at first

[Balta1701]

I understand that. And I wasn't trying to insinuate that his parents are to blame in any way for what their son did.

 

I was making a general statement that, instead of always trying to throw money at the symptoms or the peripheries of the problem, we need to look more at the root of it.

If it is true that this shooter has genuine psychological issues...and is perhaps a legitimate psychotic...I doubt that there are very many parents anywhere who would understand how to recognize the development of those problems as the shooter was growing up, and even fewer who would be able to provide the necessary treatment on their own. These sort of legitimate mental breakdown issues are the sort that it's hard for everyday people to recognize, even harder for people who are close to them every day.

[The Beast]

Per Yahoo!: Giffords breathing on her own after attack.

[iamshack]

If it is true that this shooter has genuine psychological issues...and is perhaps a legitimate psychotic...I doubt that there are very many parents anywhere who would understand how to recognize the development of those problems as the shooter was growing up, and even fewer who would be able to provide the necessary treatment on their own. These sort of legitimate mental breakdown issues are the sort that it's hard for everyday people to recognize, even harder for people who are close to them every day.

Alright then, so which is it?

 

If his parents have absolutely no influence over his behavior, I am supposed to believe that Sarah Palin did?

 

I have no problem just taking the guy for being completely crazy. But you can't argue on one hand that our politcal rhetoric is nurturing this sort of violence, and then on the other hand claim his parents had no hand in his development as a person.

 

He's either crazy or he's not. He can't be crazy for purposes of exonerating his parents but deeply capable of being influenced when it comes to political rhetoric.

[Texsox]

I think of this in part the same way I felt about the Washington Bullets changing their name. Whether it was the DC crime rate or the assassination of Rabin, when Abe Pollin changed the name he wasn't saying that the Bullets were responsible, he was saying in light of current events, things need to change. To me the shooting adds to something I've been saying for a long time, we have created a terrible political climate in this country and we need to chance. Politicians cannot arrive at a new decision without being labeled a flip flopper. There can be no compromise. And yes, the violent imagery is just wrong, no matter who spews it.

 

 

 

The shooting was political, just not partisan.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I thought that was what he was referring to, but he put Rosa, which is the name of some data protection company or something.

 

I was thoroughly confused at first

 

I misspelled it.

 

Alright then, so which is it?

 

If his parents have absolutely no influence over his behavior, I am supposed to believe that Sarah Palin did?

 

I have no problem just taking the guy for being completely crazy. But you can't argue on one hand that our politcal rhetoric is nurturing this sort of violence, and then on the other hand claim his parents had no hand in his development as a person.

 

He's either crazy or he's not. He can't be crazy for purposes of exonerating his parents but deeply capable of being influenced when it comes to political rhetoric.

 

A person can definitely be both, and in fact that's a strong positive relationship. Crazy people are easily set off by things going on around them.

 

Parents could be partially to blame, neither you nor I know.

 

[Balta1701]

Alright then, so which is it?

 

If his parents have absolutely no influence over his behavior, I am supposed to believe that Sarah Palin did?

 

I have no problem just taking the guy for being completely crazy. But you can't argue on one hand that our politcal rhetoric is nurturing this sort of violence, and then on the other hand claim his parents had no hand in his development as a person.

 

He's either crazy or he's not. He can't be crazy for purposes of exonerating his parents but deeply capable of being influenced when it comes to political rhetoric.

I don't think there's any point that I've said that Sarah Palin had any impact on his behavior and I'm pretty sure I criticized the person in this thread who suggested that.

 

I think my point has always been that the sort of eliminationist rhetoric we've been seeing was inappropriate the whole time...but it's especially inappropriate when viewed in light of these events.

 

It could well be that he was influenced by his parents and I'm sure they'll have more than a few issues to deal with here. That's different than what I've been trying to say though.

[iamshack]

I misspelled it.

 

 

 

A person can definitely be both, and in fact that's a strong positive relationship. Crazy people are easily set off by things going on around them.

 

Parents could be partially to blame, neither you nor I know.

And now is the time to start adjusting our behaviors for the crazy people?

 

[iamshack]

I don't think there's any point that I've said that Sarah Palin had any impact on his behavior and I'm pretty sure I criticized the person in this thread who suggested that.

 

I think my point has always been that the sort of eliminationist rhetoric we've been seeing was inappropriate the whole time...but it's especially inappropriate when viewed in light of these events.

 

It could well be that he was influenced by his parents and I'm sure they'll have more than a few issues to deal with here. That's different than what I've been trying to say though.

Hey, all I said was that we need to improve our parenting in this country.

 

There was a reason I tried to evade your picking at anything in anyone's posts that can possibly be debated - because now we are here. Instead of the issue at hand.