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Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in head


Balta1701

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Just out from Sen. Michael Bennet's (D-CO) office ...

 

"We can confirm that there was a threat against Senator Bennet's office and that the FBI working with the Capitol Police have arrested the individual responsible for the threat. Per their advice, we are referring inquiries related to this matter to the Capitol Police. Michael has full confidence in the law enforcement agencies handling the case and remains focused on his job serving the people of Colorado."

 

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QUOTE (Controlled Chaos @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 03:05 PM)
This thread should be closed for idiocy. It's shameful.

I don't understand. These topics are being discussed in fervent fashion all across the Internet on news sites and political blogs but we're idiots?

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I was offline for the days around this. This thread is hard to read.

 

But I'll actually say that, with one notable poster excepted, most of the posts in here are actually not the level of stupidity I see elsewhere. I see a lot of people, rightly, saying this is not about left and right, this is about a lunatic with a gun. I also see some people, rightly I'd say, pointing out that the general encouragement of anger and hatred in the political forum that has increased in recent years is not helpful - but is also not the REASON for this to have occurred.

 

And as much as I despise Palin, she has absolutely zero fault in this. Her gunsight thing was stupid and oh-so-Sarah, so I have no sympathy for her now getting hit with this. But you just cannot blame her for this, there is now way she wants something like this to happen.

 

I think most people here have the right idea, and I can tell that because the debate is mostly now about subtleties of whether or not Palin and the like should possibly tone down the rhetoric. Blame is not being assigned, again, by most people here. I applaud that.

 

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QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 03:07 PM)
I don't understand. These topics are being discussed in fervent fashion all across the Internet on news sites and political blogs but we're idiots?

To be clear, if you're using this event to criticize the "rhetoric" of Mrs. Palin or others with whom you disagree, then you're either: (a) asserting a connection between the "rhetoric" and the shooting, which based on evidence to date would be what we call a vicious lie; or (B) you're not, in which case you're just seizing on a tragedy to try to score unrelated political points, which is contemptible. Which is it?

 

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QUOTE (Controlled Chaos @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 04:41 PM)
To be clear, if you're using this event to criticize the "rhetoric" of Mrs. Palin or others with whom you disagree, then you're either: (a) asserting a connection between the "rhetoric" and the shooting, which based on evidence to date would be what we call a vicious lie; or (B) you're not, in which case you're just seizing on a tragedy to try to score unrelated political points, which is contemptible. Which is it?

 

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I use the example I gave earlier. If I have a friend who was in a car accident, and I'm talking to someone who makes an off-color joke about someone dying in a car accident, wouldn't I be fully justified in taking offense, especially if they knew about it?

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 03:43 PM)
I use the example I gave earlier. If I have a friend who was in a car accident, and I'm talking to someone who makes an off-color joke about someone dying in a car accident, wouldn't I be fully justified in taking offense, especially if they knew about it?

 

You have your time line backwards to make this relevant.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 04:46 PM)
You have your time line backwards to make this relevant.

Ok...if I made an off-color joke about a car accident in December, and I had a friend who wound up in a coma due to getting in a car accident in Minnesota the week before Christmas, wouldn't I feel really F***ing bad about having made that joke? I can think of a few inappropriately timed jokes that I made 10 years ago that still bother me.

 

(Side note, portions of this post based on reality).

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There are over 300 million Americans. Things like this are going to happen every once in a while. Loughner has no discernibly coherent political ideology and there is absolutely no proof that this has any connection with Glen Beck, Sarah Palin, Sharron Angle etc.

 

That being said, the crazy sh*t those types spew is stupid, and grossly irresponsible. But most of us here knew that before this happened, and will continue in that belief.

 

And the odds of this horrible incident toning down the political rhetoric in the long run? Zero.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 03:50 PM)
Ok...if I made an off-color joke about a car accident in December, and I had a friend who wound up in a coma due to getting in a car accident in Minnesota the week before Christmas, wouldn't I feel really F***ing bad about having made that joke? I can think of a few inappropriately timed jokes that I made 10 years ago that still bother me.

 

(Side note, portions of this post based on reality).

 

And it would probably piss you off if someone tried usurping it for their own personal gain too, right?

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 04:51 PM)
And it would probably piss you off if someone tried usurping it for their own personal gain too, right?

Depends on what the end result was. If I'd said something stupid and another person used it against me, I'd probably go out and say "yeah, they're right, I shouldn't have said that, I'm sorry".

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 03:54 PM)
Depends on what the end result was. If I'd said something stupid and another person used it against me, I'd probably go out and say "yeah, they're right, I shouldn't have said that, I'm sorry".

 

I'm referring more to exploiting your friends death with no connection to said person.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 04:57 PM)
I'm referring more to exploiting your friends death with no connection to said person.

And as I said, it'd depend on the situation. If a person is stupid enough to say something violent or mean about someone, and then a very bad thing happens to the subject of the joke...I'd expect the person who said the original phrase to at least feel bad about it and make an effort to apologize.

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Palin was brought up in this thread less than an hour after it was started. Post #16. Not all of the facts were even remotely known at that point. I think that should tell you something. It goes beyond simply reminding us that what Palin did prior to the tragedy was in poor taste. It was a "see how stupid/evil Palin really is? See what she causes? See what the GOP consists of?" type post, as are the similar posts that followed.

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 04:16 PM)
Palin was brought up in this thread less than an hour after it was started. Post #16. Not all of the facts were even remotely known at that point. I think that should tell you something. It goes beyond simply reminding us that what Palin did prior to the tragedy was in poor taste. It was a "see how stupid/evil Palin really is? See what she causes? See what the GOP consists of?" type post, as are the similar posts that followed.

 

When, what many consider to be, the GOP Presidential front runner has a sniper target on her website for a list of Democratic politicians and tells people to "restock" and "reload" people are naturally going to associate that rhetoric with this tragedy....no matter if it directly caused it or not. Especially after 2 years of extremely vitriolic rhetoric from Tea Party candidates and their followers.

 

 

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QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 04:22 PM)
When, what many consider to be, the GOP Presidential front runner has a sniper target on her website for a list of Democratic politicians and tells people to "restock" and "reload" The Left Wing are naturally going to associate that rhetoric with this tragedy....no matter if it directly caused it or not. Especially after 2 years of extremely vitriolic rhetoric from Tea Party candidates and their followers.

 

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http://www.slate.com/id/2280605/

 

Really great read.

Perhaps the saving voice at this moment will come from a conservative who can make this distinction. Politico found a "senior Republican senator" who said, "There is a need for some reflection here—what is too far now?" What's admirable here is that this senator is willing to broach the idea that heated language on the right can be a problem without validating the idea that it caused the shooting. What's depressing is that this senator would not go on the record. It proves that the political penalty remains high for saying anything—not matter how obvious—that might inflame the armies of no restraint.

 

Any speech now, from the president or a top Republican, would have to go beyond merely saying, "Tone down the rhetoric." This doesn't mean that sanitizing political speech is the answer. Passion is inevitable and even necessary. (Besides which, there's no workable way to tamp it down. You can't station a TSA agent at the front of every debate.)

 

Still, thinking first in terms of restraint rather than attack, in crafting a political message or in a political debate, might mean taking a breath before you assume the worst about your opponent's motives. It might mean a pause to consider the danger of your own knee-jerk view of their ideas. Maybe they're actually capable of reasonable thought.

 

In honor of the victims of the shooting, Congress will observe a moment of silence tomorrow afternoon. Fitting but insufficient. What we need is a permanent moment of restraint.

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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 04:05 PM)
OK, you two are just being ridiculous now. Basically, Balta is saying that Palin's stuff was in poor taste, and SS2K5 is saying its not related. You are both right.

 

Seriously. I want to come into this thread trying to get updates on Giffords' condition, and all it really consists of at this point is finger pointing and defensive stances on both sides. "THIS IS WHY THE RIGHT IS AT FAULT." "NO, THE LEFT IS AT FAULT INSTEAD."

 

Loughner was and still is nutty, and if he is paranoid about government brain-washing, he is not going to be concerned about the party affiliation of a government official but simply the fact that they are a government official.

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QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 04:33 PM)
Loughner was and still is nutty, and if he is paranoid about government brain-washing, he is not going to be concerned about the party affiliation of a government official but simply the fact that they are a government official.

You know the exact motive he had just by reading a few news clippings?

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Let me put this into a totally different context. For the people who believe that Palin or Fox, or whatever right wing group they believe is responsible for this, how will you react when this happens...

 

A terror attack occurs in the United State again, and the inevitable "I'll bet they were Muslim" post happens, are you going to be OK with that? After all, we have a history of terror attacks on American soil, a culture of hatred generated towards the US, and plenty of threats to carry out attacks by militant Muslim groups.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 04:37 PM)
Let me put this into a totally different context. For the people who believe that Palin or Fox, or whatever right wing group they believe is responsible for this, how will you react when this happens...

 

Who exactly said this?

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QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 05:33 PM)
Seriously. I want to come into this thread trying to get updates on Giffords' condition, and all it really consists of at this point is finger pointing and defensive stances on both sides. "THIS IS WHY THE RIGHT IS AT FAULT." "NO, THE LEFT IS AT FAULT INSTEAD."

 

Loughner was and still is nutty, and if he is paranoid about government brain-washing, he is not going to be concerned about the party affiliation of a government official but simply the fact that they are a government official.

 

There has been no change in the Congresswoman's condition which is a good sign. Given that the bullet apparently went straight through her brain. She is able to answer simple requests like hold up two fingers and squeeze your hand. She is being kept in a medical coma, and they are watching for any brain swelling. Doctors remain cautiously optimistic.

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