So... is Kenny done?

[hi8is]

Team looks set to me. I'd give the offseason a solid B -. That's mostly because of the massive upgrade at DH.

Good lord... a B-?

[LittleHurt05]

Team looks set to me. I'd give the offseason a solid B -. That's mostly because of the massive upgrade at DH.

 

What else should they have done? I think for what they had and what they needed, they did a great job. At least an A-, its not like they could go sign Lee & Crawford. (The Hudson deal doesnt count in this offseason grade either)

[Jordan4life_2007]

Just curious, what would you have liked to see done?

 

Well we took care of our biggest need. A left-handed power bat in Dunn. If we're going to be signing relievers to three-year deals, I much rather have signed a Scott Downs, who's been much more consistent and just flat out better than Jesse Crain the last four years. Jose Contreras was another guy I had my eye on. He got a 2-year, 5.5 million dollar deal with the Phillies. Downs and Contreras is A LOT better than Crain and Ohman. And the money would've been roughly the same. Maybe an extra 2 million? I would've liked to seen Andruw Jones Brought back. As of right now we have no power threat off the bench. If used correctly, and I think Ozzie did a good job of this last year, he's a bargain asset. And I would've liked to have seen a young catcher brought in. Which obviously would only happen through trade. I'm sure KW was shopping CQ hard with nobody offering anything close to desirable. And, of course, I want Juan Pierre and Mark Teahen banished. I guess that's it from a realistic point of view. Or could we have signed both Cliff Lee and Adrian Beltre?

 

Now let me ask you this...say we didn't sign Dunn and maybe ended up with a much lesser player like Lee or Laroche or worse even nobody, what grade would you give the Sox offseason? I'd be shocked if it was higher than a C -.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Jordan4life

[Rowand44]

Now let me ask you this...say we didn't sign Dunn and maybe ended up with a much lesser player like Lee or Laroche or worse even nobody, what grade would you give the Sox offseason? I'd be shocked if it was higher than a C -.

Well as you already said, that was the biggest need for this team and we filled it with one of the better left handed hitters around, so yes that alone jumps the letter grade up quite a bit.

 

If you just look at the offseason, we went into it with a few major holes: 1b, dh, C, bullpen. DH and 1b were filled with two of the better fa's out there, C was filled with a bit of a ? but it's at least someone our pitchers are comfortable with and we know can call a good game, and we added two quality(not spectacular) relievers to the bullpen.

 

Now if you're just comparing this team we have set for 2011 with the 2010 team than obviously you have to look at things a bit different but I still can't see how one wouldn't be upbeat. Since I know you're a WAR fan, what Adam Dunn over Kotsay adds about 3 to 4 wins to this team by himself, no?

 

We both agree that Konerko is going to regress and Becks is going to get better, I'm also convinced that AJ is a lock to have a better offensive season while you're not, that I'm not going to argue though. But would you say it's fair that the offensive numbers as a whole(excluding Dunn) should stay around the same?

 

As far as the pitching staff, I just can't see how there would be anyway that the staff as a whole performs worse than they did last year, would you agree with that? Obviously Peavy is the X factor that could make this staff great but this team still won 88 games last year with him missing half the season and being garbage for 2 of the 3 months he pitched. With the added depth to the pen and hopefully some added consistency from the likes of a Sergio Santos, the pitching staff as a whole should be better even if Peavy isn't healthy all year.

 

Of course this team still has some question marks(everyone does) but we have no holes and a pretty high ceiling if we can stay healthy. I just don't see how anyone could say this is anything but a great offseason.

[hi8is]

Now let me ask you this...say we didn't sign Dunn and maybe ended up with a much lesser player like Lee or Laroche or worse even nobody, what grade would you give the Sox offseason? I'd be shocked if it was higher than a C -.

What is the point in speculating towards something like this when it is not at all in the realm of reality?

[LittleHurt05]

Now let me ask you this...say we didn't sign Dunn and maybe ended up with a much lesser player like Lee or Laroche or worse even nobody, what grade would you give the Sox offseason? I'd be shocked if it was higher than a C -.

 

If they did sign Lee or LaRoche or nobody, that would have given them a few extra million to play with. What would they have done with? That would affect the grade too.

 

[scotty22hotty]

Sox still need a consistent/defensive RF...

Unless his foot vastly improved, Carlos needs to be on a team where he can DH 50% of the time.

Hopefully KW works his magic.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Well as you already said, that was the biggest need for this team and we filled it with one of the better left handed hitters around, so yes that alone jumps the letter grade up quite a bit.

 

It's all a matter of opinion, I guess. I don't think Adam Dunn alone makes this a great off-season. And I'm not thrilled at all by Crain or Ohman. Especially Crain.

 

If you just look at the offseason, we went into it with a few major holes: 1b, dh, C, bullpen. DH and 1b were filled with two of the better fa's out there, C was filled with a bit of a ? but it's at least someone our pitchers are comfortable with and we know can call a good game, and we added two quality(not spectacular) relievers to the bullpen.

 

Again, nothing negative to say about the Dunn signing. And I'm glad we brought PK back, even though, and we agree, that he's not likely to repeat his 2010. I have no idea how one can look at Crain's body of work and be at all thrilled. He was good last season. But the 3 years prior to that he was very mediocre. And I just can't get excited over Loogy's.

 

Now if you're just comparing this team we have set for 2011 with the 2010 team than obviously you have to look at things a bit different but I still can't see how one wouldn't be upbeat. Since I know you're a WAR fan, what Adam Dunn over Kotsay adds about 3 to 4 wins to this team by himself, no?

 

Yes, I do. But then you have to factor in the likely Konerko regression and the fact will be without our number 1 starter for likely quite some time and we won't even know how effective he'll be once he eventually does come back.

 

We both agree that Konerko is going to regress and Becks is going to get better, I'm also convinced that AJ is a lock to have a better offensive season while you're not, that I'm not going to argue though. But would you say it's fair that the offensive numbers as a whole(excluding Dunn) should stay around the same?

 

I guess it would be hard to be worse than A.J. was last year. But I don't expect some renaissance at age 35. I, of course, would love to be wrong. I think Beckham will be better. But he needs to be A LOT better. Because last year for the most part was pathetic.

 

As far as the pitching staff, I just can't see how there would be anyway that the staff as a whole performs worse than they did last year, would you agree with that? Obviously Peavy is the X factor that could make this staff great but this team still won 88 games last year with him missing half the season and being garbage for 2 of the 3 months he pitched. With the added depth to the pen and hopefully some added consistency from the likes of a Sergio Santos, the pitching staff as a whole should be better even if Peavy isn't healthy all year.

 

The bolded is driving me crazy. Yes, they won 88 games. But how many of those came after the Sox were long out of it and playing teams [the Sox were doing the same] that were either shutting their main guys down because they were either resting them or their teams were already out of it and evaluating young guys for next year? And what do you mean added depth? How does losing Putz and Jenks and adding Crain and a loogy give us more depth? I'm torn with Santos. I've become a big proponent of pitcher peripherals. And outside of his K/9, which were good, they were mediocre. And then there's always the challenge of making adjustments when hitters get to see you the second time around. And I totally disagree that the pitching staff will be better without Peavy for an extended time or a healthy Peavy when he comes back. Could it be good enough? Yes. But I doubt it will be better.

 

Of course this team still has some question marks(everyone does) but we have no holes and a pretty high ceiling if we can stay healthy. I just don't see how anyone could say this is anything but a great offseason.

 

Sure, this team has enough talent that if most everything goes right they can win 95 games. But I thought that last year. And I think we had a solid/good off-season highlighted by one great addition. So I guess will agree to disagree there.

 

 

 

 

What is the point in speculating towards something like this when it is not at all in the realm of reality?

 

It was just a simple hypothetical. I'm getting the idea by many that simply adding Adam Dunn makes this a great offseason. I disagree. Simple as that.

 

If they did sign Lee or LaRoche or nobody, that would have given them a few extra million to play with. What would they have done with? That would affect the grade too.

 

True. Like I said, it was a hypothetical. I love Dunn. But I'm not crazy about anything else we've done. Well, of course, bringing PK back.

[GreatScott82]

Sox still need a consistent/defensive RF...

Unless his foot vastly improved, Carlos needs to be on a team where he can DH 50% of the time.

Hopefully KW works his magic.

I would have loved to have brought in DeJesus for RF. It could be one of those things where he likely doesn't want to sell low on TCQ. Hopefully his foot heals properly and he can play adequate defense.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I would have loved to have brought in DeJesus for RF. It could be one of those things where he likely doesn't want to sell low on TCQ. Hopefully his foot heals properly and he can play adequate defense.

 

I would've loved DeJesus as well. But what does it say about the pitching in our system that outside of Sale we wouldn't have been able to top Vin Mazzaro? And I don't want CQ traded unless it's a clear win. I mean like universal consensus. Because we know what he can do when he's right. I'll take the abomination that is his defense for a repeat of '08 or close to it.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

He's never "done" so to speak, but he may not have enough money to sign anyone else to deals more than $1M or so guaranteed, and he may not find good enough deals out there to make it worth clearing salary in another deal.

 

I'd love to see a Teahen + prospects for bad contract + cash deal OR a Teahen + cash/prospects/both for smaller salaried player. The areas we need to deepen are the bullpen, potentially the starting rotation (some extra insurance would be great), and a good 4th OF capable of starting but used to rotate around while spelling Rios in CF.

 

Some potential targets for one of the above deals:

 

Brandon Lyon 11:$5.25M, 12:$5.5M

Coco Crisp $5.75M

Michael Wuertz 11:$2.8M, 12:$3.25M club option ($0.25M buyout)

Ryan Sweeney 1 year/$1.4M (2011)

Nate McLouth 11:$6.5M, 12:$10.65M club option ($1.25M buyout)

Kosuke Fukudome 11:$13.5M

Aaron Rowand 11:$12M, 12:$12M

Francisco Rodriguez 11:$11.5M, 12:$17.5M option ($3.5M buyout)

Angel Pagan 1 year/$1.45M (2010)

Mike Gonzalez 11:$6M

Danys Baez 11:$2.75M

 

What I really want is KRod, but we'd have to include some good prospects to get that done and without including Dayan, Morel, or Mitchell (I wouldn't trade those guys) I don't we'd have enough. I'd happily ship out Escobar, Thompson, Santos Rodriguez, Flowers, Infante, etc.

 

Brandon Lyon could be an excellent fit though. We'd have to give up something good here, too, but not as much since we wouldn't have to take cash back.

 

Winning in 2011 is of the ultimate importance to this organization, so I really hope something is out there. We just can't f*** it up this year.

[chw42]

He's never "done" so to speak, but he may not have enough money to sign anyone else to deals more than $1M or so guaranteed, and he may not find good enough deals out there to make it worth clearing salary in another deal.

 

I'd love to see a Teahen + prospects for bad contract + cash deal OR a Teahen + cash/prospects/both for smaller salaried player. The areas we need to deepen are the bullpen, potentially the starting rotation (some extra insurance would be great), and a good 4th OF capable of starting but used to rotate around while spelling Rios in CF.

 

Some potential targets for one of the above deals:

 

Brandon Lyon 11:$5.25M, 12:$5.5M

Coco Crisp $5.75M

Michael Wuertz 11:$2.8M, 12:$3.25M club option ($0.25M buyout)

Ryan Sweeney 1 year/$1.4M (2011)

Nate McLouth 11:$6.5M, 12:$10.65M club option ($1.25M buyout)

Kosuke Fukudome 11:$13.5M

Aaron Rowand 11:$12M, 12:$12M

Francisco Rodriguez 11:$11.5M, 12:$17.5M option ($3.5M buyout)

Angel Pagan 1 year/$1.45M (2010)

Mike Gonzalez 11:$6M

Danys Baez 11:$2.75M

 

What I really want is KRod, but we'd have to include some good prospects to get that done and without including Dayan, Morel, or Mitchell (I wouldn't trade those guys) I don't we'd have enough. I'd happily ship out Escobar, Thompson, Santos Rodriguez, Flowers, Infante, etc.

 

Brandon Lyon could be an excellent fit though. We'd have to give up something good here, too, but not as much since we wouldn't have to take cash back.

 

Winning in 2011 is of the ultimate importance to this organization, so I really hope something is out there. We just can't f*** it up this year.

 

I would love Angel Pagan. Unfortunately, Alderson's the Mets' GM now and you can't trick him like you could Omar Minaya. Wuertz is a hell of a reliever too, but we're not getting Billy Beane to take on Teahen.

 

BTW, whatever happened to the Mets trying to opt out of K-Rod's contract? How did that workout?

Edited January 9, 2011 by chw42

[Jordan4life_2007]

He's never "done" so to speak, but he may not have enough money to sign anyone else to deals more than $1M or so guaranteed, and he may not find good enough deals out there to make it worth clearing salary in another deal.

 

I'd love to see a Teahen + prospects for bad contract + cash deal OR a Teahen + cash/prospects/both for smaller salaried player. The areas we need to deepen are the bullpen, potentially the starting rotation (some extra insurance would be great), and a good 4th OF capable of starting but used to rotate around while spelling Rios in CF.

 

Some potential targets for one of the above deals:

 

Brandon Lyon 11:$5.25M, 12:$5.5M

Coco Crisp $5.75M

Michael Wuertz 11:$2.8M, 12:$3.25M club option ($0.25M buyout)

Ryan Sweeney 1 year/$1.4M (2011)

Nate McLouth 11:$6.5M, 12:$10.65M club option ($1.25M buyout)

Kosuke Fukudome 11:$13.5M

Aaron Rowand 11:$12M, 12:$12M

Francisco Rodriguez 11:$11.5M, 12:$17.5M option ($3.5M buyout)

Angel Pagan 1 year/$1.45M (2010)

Mike Gonzalez 11:$6M

Danys Baez 11:$2.75M

 

What I really want is KRod, but we'd have to include some good prospects to get that done and without including Dayan, Morel, or Mitchell (I wouldn't trade those guys) I don't we'd have enough. I'd happily ship out Escobar, Thompson, Santos Rodriguez, Flowers, Infante, etc.

 

Brandon Lyon could be an excellent fit though. We'd have to give up something good here, too, but not as much since we wouldn't have to take cash back.

 

Winning in 2011 is of the ultimate importance to this organization, so I really hope something is out there. We just can't f*** it up this year.

 

We couldn't give Mark Teahen away at this point. And hell to the no with Brandon Lyon. He's been barely replacement level the last five years and is way overpaid. I'd rather go with a minor league arm.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Jordan4life

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

We couldn't give Mark Teahen away at this point. And hell to the no with Brandon Lyon. He's been barely replacement level the last five years and is way overpaid. I'd rather go with a minor league arm.

No offense J4L but you are one of the worst talent evaluators on this site. Lyon may be overpaid but he's got a good arm and he's a veteran.

 

You're also waaaaaaaaaaay off base as far as his last two years. Look at those stats and get back to me. Or just don't, I don't want to argue about this.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I would love Angel Pagan. Unfortunately, Alderson's the Mets' GM now and you can't trick him like you could Omar Minaya. Wuertz is a hell of a reliever too, but we're not getting Billy Beane to take on Teahen.

 

BTW, whatever happened to the Mets trying to opt out of K-Rod's contract? How did that workout?

I think KRod had some sort of family issues, don't remember, and I guess that opened the window to possibly voiding his contract. But I guess they don't like him as a person anyway.

 

I think he's definitely for sale though, but he'll probably be moved mid-season. That 2012 option is horrible and won't be picked up, and the buyout is scary too, so he shouldn't cost as much as one would normally think since there's no draft picks via arb.

 

It might make some sense to move him now though if they got the right package. The Phillies and Braves are both looking very good (especially the Phil obviously) and after 2011 they have a ton of money (Beltran, KRod, Reyes, Perez, Castillo) coming off the books, so it might be smart to use this year as a transition year. Give some young guys playing time, then look to spend in FA after the season and try to contend in 2012 and beyond.

[Jordan4life_2007]

No offense J4L but you are one of the worst talent evaluators on this site. Lyon may be overpaid but he's got a good arm and he's a veteran.

 

You're also waaaaaaaaaaay off base as far as his last two years. Look at those stats and get back to me. Or just don't, I don't want to argue about this.

 

I don't get paid to be a talent evaluator. If you think Brandon Lyon is worth over 10 million dollars the next two years then don't ever apply for a GM position. I've seen his stats. He was insanely lucky in 2009 with a BABIP of .229. His career BABIP is .302. So good luck with explaining that outlier. His peripheral stats were hardly impressive. He had a nice little run towards the end of last year when Lindstrom got hurt and proved to be ineffective. But I ain't devoting 5.5 million to Brandon Lyon. No way, no how.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Jordan4life

[qwerty]

I echo j4l... the lack of power off the bench is bothersome... as is the pen. The pen more so than the lack of power of the bench. Too many question marks for my liking when sale is not in the pen, and even when he is, don't color me impressed. The pen shall be the weak link for the sox this season... but will they be bad enough to keep them out of the playoffs? Entirely possible scenario i believe.

 

For some time now the sox pitch their relievers just about as little as any team in the league. Quite simply we have had some sort of a nice luxury. During that time... we have generally had a pretty potent 1-2-3 at the back end... with talented arms sprinkled in to round out the pen. Now? The best arm the sox have is transitioning to closer. Will is matter to thornton mentally? Maybe... maybe not. Thornton got the ball to jenks in situations i am pretty certain the vast majority can't dream of doing on a consistent basis. Another luxury... one of which is assuredly gone. But then again i would take a stud set-up man over a stud closer any day... remember... the game would never get to the closer otherwise. What i mean by this is i would take an elite set-up man and have a slightly worse closer closing out my games... rather than vice versa. I have always believed the best arm in the pen, which is generally the closer, though not always, is utilized incorrectly. I'm not the only one which thinks this way, it's a way more common thought process than you would think.

 

Thornton... i'm pretty confident in... but you just never know how someone will react moving into the closers role.

Sale... he will be far and away will be the biggest asset in the pen... once he gets there that is. Without sale... the pen is downright bleak.

Santos... unless if something changes control wise... i think he is closer to the pitcher he was the last two months... rather than the first four. People undervalue just how valuable it is when a player has a limited, or in the case of santos, nearly no scouting report at all against.

Crain... no problem here... crain should do just about what he has always done.

Pena... which pena are we gonna get? If i were to make a wager, i wouldn't say he lives up to what he is capable of, though i just hope he sniffs it.

Ohman... he is what he is... a left handed specialist. If they can try and limit ohman to as few right handed hitters as possible.... we will have finally found someone other than thornton that can get lefties out on a consistent basis.

Infante... walking batters at the rate he does is not gonna cut it on a team that is contending... maybe on a bottom feeder sort of team they could throw him out there... but i want nothing to do with him. Infante does still have age on his side to get things figured out.

Carter... not major league caliber.

Spring training invites? Ick (many more times than not).

 

So currently i think we have a total of about three arms we potentially can rely on, and only two until sale gets in there, with a ton of crap shoot mixed in. Btw, i know people don't want to think about it/believe it... but sale will also go through rough patches... it all comes with time.

 

On the jones front... if jones had hit consistently, even a consistent .230, rather than disappear for months at a time, i think many more here would be looking to bring him back. Hopefully throughout the year someone with a little pop is brought in to help in that regard.

 

As far as a grade goes for the off-season... a b- seems fair enough (j4l)... though i would personally give them a b. If they would have brought someone in with power off the bench i would have bumped them to a b+. If they would have added the bench player, and another plus reliever, i would have then rated the off-season an a.

 

No reason to have low standards.. shoot for the stars... and be disappointed with any less.

Edited January 9, 2011 by qwerty

[spiderman]

If he is done, is this the accurate 25-man roster?

 

Buehrle

Peavy-DL

Jackson

Floyd

Danks

Sale

 

Bullpen: Crain, Infante, Pena, Santos, Thornton, Ohman

Konerko, Beckham, Ramirez, Vizquel, Pierzynski, Pierre, Rios, Quentin, Dunn

Bench: Castro, Teahen, Morel, Lillibridge, De Aza/Viciedo

 

Would Dolsi or another reliever be good enough to make the team?

 

Just a small point, but I do think, barring an awful spring training, that Morel is the likely starter at 3B, although, Guillen is going to use Vizquel plenty there so Morel won't be any everyday starter.

[Rowand44]

Santos... unless if something changes control wise... i think he is closer to the pitcher he was the last two months... rather than the first four. People undervalue just how valuable it is when a player has a limited, or in the case of santos, nearly no scouting report at all against.

You also can't undervalue how crazy it was for a guy who had virtually no pitching experience to come in and put up the numbers that he did last season. You can say teams got a scouting report on him but you can also just as easily say that he got wore down since you know, he's never pitched before. The guy has a terrific arm and the more he learns how to pitch, the better he's going to be. Santos to be honest, is one of the least of my worries this season, I think he's going to be one of the elite relievers in baseball.

[Dick Allen]

You also can't undervalue how crazy it was for a guy who had virtually no pitching experience to come in and put up the numbers that he did last season. You can say teams got a scouting report on him but you can also just as easily say that he got wore down since you know, he's never pitched before. The guy has a terrific arm and the more he learns how to pitch, the better he's going to be. Santos to be honest, is one of the least of my worries this season, I think he's going to be one of the elite relievers in baseball.

Its possible, but its also possible he's hit a wall. He lost a little velocity as the season went along, and if your theory were 100% true, that he's only going to get better, how come he didn't keep improving during the 2010 season as he gained experience. Obviously tools are there for him to be very good, but its also very possible he's just an average guy who has good stuff.

[southsider2k5]

Its possible, but its also possible he's hit a wall. He lost a little velocity as the season went along, and if your theory were 100% true, that he's only going to get better, how come he didn't keep improving during the 2010 season as he gained experience. Obviously tools are there for him to be very good, but its also very possible he's just an average guy who has good stuff.

 

He hit a wall because he is literally building a pitching arm from nothing. He did the same thing the year before, except earlier in the season.

[Dick Allen]

He hit a wall because he is literally building a pitching arm from nothing. He did the same thing the year before, except earlier in the season.

If that's true, he fell apart after about 30 IP. I don't know how you can expect him to build up enough arm strength to be totally relied upon.

[southsider2k5]

If that's true, he fell apart after about 30 IP. I don't know how you can expect him to build up enough arm strength to be totally relied upon.

 

He threw 28+ innings in 09, his first year of pitching, plus whatever he did in AZ. Last year he made it up to 51+. I am betting we get a solid year out of him. I know the want is to measure him against other pitchers, but he is a pretty unique case.

[Dick Allen]

He threw 28+ innings in 09, his first year of pitching, plus whatever he did in AZ. Last year he made it up to 51+. I am betting we get a solid year out of him. I know the want is to measure him against other pitchers, but he is a pretty unique case.

I know he's unique, but the story, while nice, doesn't get people out. I'm just concerned about the results. His last 21 IP last year were horrendous overall. If his first 21 innings were like that, he probably would have been back in Charlotte and perhaps out of baseball right now or with another organization trying to hold on.

 

I hope he is solid. I'm just saying its not being a pessimist or a gray cloud to question it. There are concerns. The bullpen is still something KW should consider upgrading. Considering past performances and lack of experience, Thornton is the only guy whose performance in 2011 would really shock most if it wasn't above average.

 

Sale needs to be in the bullpen. It didn't hurt Buehrle in 2000. If Sale has the capacity to be a top starter, it won't hurt him in 2011 to work near the end of games.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Sale needs to be in the bullpen. It didn't hurt Buehrle in 2000.

This logic is just silly. Not only are they not even close to the same type of pitcher, but their backgrounds are also totally different. The only reason why you'd compare those two is that they're left-handed. It makes as much sense for me to say "Sale needs to be in the rotation, they put McCarthy in the bullpen in 2006 and it did hurt him".