Sale's mechanics

[iamshack]

I dunno about you guys, but I'd take a player that turns out to be "dominant" at any position on the field from my first round draft pick.

Edited January 10, 2011 by iamshack

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I'm not questioning the value of a good or dominant reliever. You obviously need them to win. But for any organization, especially a talent-starved organization such as ours, you don't invest pre-mid first round picks on them. There were questions about Sale's frame, durability and violent delivery well before the draft. I would've passed if I wasn't 100 percent or close to 100 percent sure he could cut it as a starter. It's funny. The one year we should've probably played it safe after years of failures of playing it safe is the year we actually appear to be going high upside.

Give it a f***ing rest already. Sale has the ability to be an elite closer. Take all your WAR crap and throw it out the f***ing window. Chris Sale shortens a baseball game. Closers who are that great at what they do cost draft picks and lots of money when you sign them through FA. Having a Chris Sale basically for free for 3 years and then well below market for the next three is a goddamned beautiful thing and if other teams thought he could do what he has done with us then he probably would have been drafted HIGHER. This isn't 1-pitch Aaron Poreda we're talking about. Chris Sale is a very special pitcher. In fact if Sale were on another team and we passed on him to take someone else I'm almost certain you'd b**** about us not taking Sale. I remember how in one of your typical ball-washing threads about young players you were ranting about Feliz - but Sale is at LEAST on that level if not better. If Sale played for the Cleveland Indians or the Houston Astros or whatever you'd have a thread in Talking Baseball about what a stud he is and how dumb we are for not drafting him.

 

Your line of thinking is not only flawed in the way that others have pointed out, but you also have to consider that by taking a near-MLB ready or MLB-ready talent like Chris Sale you are shortening the window of time that talented prospect has to lose value by a considerable portion and creating an opportunity for that player to increase his value substantially. Sale working as a starter in the minors, having his ups and downs in front of a few roving scouts, is a top prospect that maybe makes the top-100 on all the major publications. But being in the Major Leagues blowing away MLB hitters in front of the entire baseball universe - GM's and assitant GM's on highlights, owners, managers, other players - takes his value and shoots it to the moon. Jared Mitchell OTOH, Trayce Thompson, Josh Fields, Brian Anderson, etc. all these raw players see their value fluctuate and sometimes drop off precipitously through stints in the minors as they try to make the necessary adjustments to become an MLB player. Just because they have CEILINGS that you may personally feel are higher than Sale's value as a closer doesn't mean they are worth ANYTHING CLOSE to Sale on the open market and it CERTAINLY does not mean that they are within the same galaxy as Chris Sale when it comes to winning a baseball game at the MLB level, which is EXACTLY what all this s*** is supposed to be about.

 

Sale was a terrific pick. Actual MLB value is always greater than imaginary future MLB value. Actual value creates winning baseball organizations, while the imaginary crap creates your favorite KC Royals which I'm sure you'll enjoy b****ing about over the next several years as some of these great prospects of theirs fall flat on their faces.

[Balta1701]

This, too, concerns me.

Is this an official position?

[ScottyDo]

I'd trade a first round pick for Mariano in his prime in a heartbeat.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Give it a f***ing rest already. Sale has the ability to be an elite closer. Take all your WAR crap and throw it out the f***ing window. Chris Sale shortens a baseball game. Closers who are that great at what they do cost draft picks and lots of money when you sign them through FA. Having a Chris Sale basically for free for 3 years and then well below market for the next three is a goddamned beautiful thing and if other teams thought he could do what he has done with us then he probably would have been drafted HIGHER. This isn't 1-pitch Aaron Poreda we're talking about. Chris Sale is a very special pitcher. In fact if Sale were on another team and we passed on him to take someone else I'm almost certain you'd b**** about us not taking Sale. I remember how in one of your typical ball-washing threads about young players you were ranting about Feliz - but Sale is at LEAST on that level if not better. If Sale played for the Cleveland Indians or the Houston Astros or whatever you'd have a thread in Talking Baseball about what a stud he is and how dumb we are for not drafting him.

 

Well good god damn. Sale has the ability to be an elite closer because KHP says so. Chris Sale is a very special pitcher? Wow. I'm totally stumped. How do I respond to that? Nobody compared Chris Sale to Aaron Poreda. So you can take that bulls*** somewhere else. I've explained myself over and over again regarding this topic. And I don't give a f*** who agrees or disagrees. YOU DO NOT DRAFT A RELIEVER WITH THE 13TH PICK! If you remember, and I'm sure you don't, I created a thread last year begging KW NOT to trade Chris Sale because I liked him so much. But not because I wanted a set-up man or closer. Because I wanted a number 1 or 2 type starter. Is that too much to ask? I don't know and I don't care. In sports, and life in general, you shoot for the stars. Not settle for scraps.

 

Your line of thinking is not only flawed in the way that others have pointed out, but you also have to consider that by taking a near-MLB ready or MLB-ready talent like Chris Sale you are shortening the window of time that talented prospect has to lose value by a considerable portion and creating an opportunity for that player to increase his value substantially. Sale working as a starter in the minors, having his ups and downs in front of a few roving scouts, is a top prospect that maybe makes the top-100 on all the major publications. But being in the Major Leagues blowing away MLB hitters in front of the entire baseball universe - GM's and assitant GM's on highlights, owners, managers, other players - takes his value and shoots it to the moon. Jared Mitchell OTOH, Trayce Thompson, Josh Fields, Brian Anderson, etc. all these raw players see their value fluctuate and sometimes drop off precipitously through stints in the minors as they try to make the necessary adjustments to become an MLB player. Just because they have CEILINGS that you may personally feel are higher than Sale's value as a closer doesn't mean they are worth ANYTHING CLOSE to Sale on the open market and it CERTAINLY does not mean that they are within the same galaxy as Chris Sale when it comes to winning a baseball game at the MLB level, which is EXACTLY what all this s*** is supposed to be about.

 

And for the 548767843278458432 time. I don't have a problem with the pick IF he's going to be a starter. But like I said before, there were questions about his frame, durability and delivery BEFORE the draft. Now if the Sox scouts or Lauman or whatever drafted him with the idea of will try him as a starter but if worse comes to worse will make him a reliever then they f***ED UP. You can agree or disagree. I really don't care.

 

Sale was a terrific pick. Actual MLB value is always greater than imaginary future MLB value. Actual value creates winning baseball organizations, while the imaginary crap creates your favorite KC Royals which I'm sure you'll enjoy b****ing about over the next several years as some of these great prospects of theirs fall flat on their faces.

 

You're delusional and have somehow created an imaginary J4L that you just feel like arguing with. I'm not doing this anymore. FOR THE LAST f***ING TIME! If Sale ultimately ends up as a reliever then it was a WASTE of a 13th pick. A third or fourth round pick? No problem. Maybe even a second round pick. I don't give a f*** if you agree with me. I'll play the role of Soxtalk villain. I really don't care. I will speak my mind no matter what the consensus is.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Jordan4life

[Quin]

I will agree that Sale being anything less than a starter is bad, but if he becomes a dominant (and I mean stupidly dominant) reliever, that doesn't hurt either.

 

The fact that he will be in the bullpen worries me, but haven't closers moved from bullpen to starter (Dempster?) in recent years?

Edited January 10, 2011 by Quinarvy

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I don't think J4L, me, or anyone else on the "Sale for Starter" campaign is saying that him being a reliever for his career is a disappointment. However, he should get every chance to be a starter before he gets sucked into a relievers role. Sale needs to be starting games until he shows that he can't, either through struggling, lack of stamina, or injury. Only at that point should be relegated to the bullpen. And if he becomes a great bullpen arm, then everyone should be very happy. But it's foolish to not try to maximize his potential while his potential has not been defined.

[gatnom]

I don't think J4L, me, or anyone else on the "Sale for Starter" campaign is saying that him being a reliever for his career is a disappointment. However, he should get every chance to be a starter before he gets sucked into a relievers role. Sale needs to be starting games until he shows that he can't, either through struggling, lack of stamina, or injury. Only at that point should be relegated to the bullpen. And if he becomes a great bullpen arm, then everyone should be very happy. But it's foolish to not try to maximize his potential while his potential has not been defined.

 

I think it's a disappointment, a pretty big one. Chris Sale as a starter has infinitely more value than as a reliever. Now, I would rather him become a dominant reliever than a failed prospect, but it would certainly be disappointing to have that be the case.

Edited January 10, 2011 by gatnom

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I think it's a disappointment, a pretty big one. Chris Sale as a starter has infinitely more value than as a reliever. Now, I would rather him become a dominant reliever than a failed prospect, but it would certainly be disappointing to have that be the case.

 

Well obviously he would be more valuable as a starter, but not if he fails at being a starter, then he is useless, and that's what I mean. If his "worst case scenerio" is a very good reliever, then I don't see how anyone can be mad about that. But like I said, failing to use him as a starter before he ever gets the chance to fail is extremely reckless.

[joeynach]

Honestly...for a pick in the first half of the first round...that'd be at best an adequate pick, and somewhat disappointing.

 

For a White Sox 1st round pick it would be a steal

[qwerty]

The sox are gonna do whatever they see best suited to help the team win. They will do whatever is best for this season with sale, the one after that, and so on. I feel several times more confident when we have an actual option (sale) when someone is out in the rotation... rather than a never ending revolving door. Sounds familar no? Sucks yes?

 

Let me say before hand the following i believe never occurred because it would have be the wrong way to go about things. Thankfully kenny williams is a smart man to not make such a gaffe. Buehrle was not going anywher, clearly peavy was not gonna get moved, the sox acquired jackson because they have liked him for years. The only two real options we had to move, danks and floyd, would have led to the following...

 

Let's think here hypothetically, jackson, floyd, danks, peavy, and buehrle are all healthy, though one got moved in the off-season. Since danks and floyd were the only realistic options... we will say one of them got moved. Now remember, hypothetically speaking still, the sox did this to start sale and get the most worth out of him. Someone gets hurt... months on end... better yet... season ending... now who steps in to replace one of those starters? It's not as simple as saying '' with the money saved via the starting pitching trade... we picked up a back of the rotation starter as insurance''. That is not a guarantee. Not a ton of money would have been saved if either floyd or danks were moved. Rather minimal actually in the grand scheme of things.

 

So if we went that route... we would need another capable starter, not aaaa caliber pitchers as our insurance policy. This would also mean no sale in the pen, which would then mean we would have most definitely needed to acquire another reliever (i personally still think we need another good one... in our current state) to fill his void. So the five million or so (would be less of course considering we would be getting players in return) would have to be used on two spots (three if you are worried about the lack of pop off the bench) while ultimately losing depth starting pitching wise. Even if it didn't end up being depth, due to them picking up a starter, the skill level would be drastically different, for the worse

 

What sale has to gain by starting this very season is nothing. The sox team, and what best benefits them, this should be the only concern. It's not just my mindset, appears to be kenny's also. They don't have to be greedy and push the issue, take what you can get, while you can get it. I get the vibe that some would rather have sale become nothing at all if he doesn't end up a starter. Would that be disappointing? Yes, most likely unless he became absolutely elite out of the pen. Would i complain that is was the worst pick and choice of all time? No. If you can draft a player in the first round, hell any round, and they end up contributing for the positive on the major league deal, well you struck it rich. I think we are very fortunate having sale as an option to start if an injury occurs, most teams can't just slip in a pitcher like him at will. I'm almost certain sale will be in the rotation by 2012, since there will potentially be two open spots for his taking.

 

Patience is the companion of wisdom.

Edited January 10, 2011 by qwerty

[qwerty]

Well obviously he would be more valuable as a starter, but not if he fails at being a starter, then he is useless, and that's what I mean. If his "worst case scenerio" is a very good reliever, then I don't see how anyone can be mad about that. But like I said, failing to use him as a starter before he ever gets the chance to fail is extremely reckless.

 

Come on, the guy is not gonna get irrevocably traumatized because he spends part of one season, his first full season, in the bullpen. You sure have a funny definition of the word reckless.

[Ranger]

Is this an official position?

 

It's officially mine.

 

I think it's a disappointment, a pretty big one. Chris Sale as a starter has infinitely more value than as a reliever. Now, I would rather him become a dominant reliever than a failed prospect, but it would certainly be disappointing to have that be the case.

 

There should be no disappointment if the first round pick turns out to be a good, contributing MLB player considering the great majority of first round players turn out to be nothing and some never even play a single inning in the big leagues. If Sale would've have turned out to be a career AAA player, then that would have been disappointing. Remember, he was picked 13th, not 5th or better.

 

Like qwerty said, adding to his value is the fact he was able to contribute almost immediately. Not many teams are fortunate enough to have that from their first-round picks.

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

The sox are gonna do whatever they see best suited to help the team win. They will do whatever is best for this season with sale, the one after that, and so on. I feel several times more confident when we have an actual option (sale) when someone is out in the rotation... rather than a never ending revolving door. Sounds familar no? Sucks yes?

 

Let me say before hand the following i believe never occurred because it would have be the wrong way to go about things. Thankfully kenny williams is a smart man to not make such a gaffe. Buehrle was not going anywher, clearly peavy was not gonna get moved, the sox acquired jackson because they have liked him for years. The only two real options we had to move, danks and floyd, would have led to the following...

 

Let's think here hypothetically, jackson, floyd, danks, peavy, and buehrle are all healthy, though one got moved in the off-season. Since danks and floyd were the only realistic options... we will say one of them got moved. Now remember, hypothetically speaking still, the sox did this to start sale and get the most worth out of him. Someone gets hurt... months on end... better yet... season ending... now who steps in to replace one of those starters? It's not as simple as saying '' with the money saved via the starting pitching trade... we picked up a back of the rotation starter as insurance''. That is not a guarantee. Not a ton of money would have been saved if either floyd or danks were moved. Rather minimal actually in the grand scheme of things.

 

So if we went that route... we would need another capable starter, not aaaa caliber pitchers as our insurance policy. This would also mean no sale in the pen, which would then mean we would have most definitely needed to acquire another reliever (i personally still think we need another good one... in our current state) to fill his void. So the five million or so (would be less of course considering we would be getting players in return) would have to be used on two spots (three if you are worried about the lack of pop off the bench) while ultimately losing depth starting pitching wise. Even if it didn't end up being depth, due to them picking up a starter, the skill level would be drastically different, for the worse

 

What sale has to gain by starting this very season is nothing. The sox team, and what best benefits them, this should be the only concern. It's not just my mindset, appears to be kenny's also. They don't have to be greedy and push the issue, take what you can get, while you can get it. I get the vibe that some would rather have sale become nothing at all if he doesn't end up a starter. Would that be disappointing? Yes, most likely unless he became absolutely elite out of the pen. Would i complain that is was the worst pick and choice of all time? No. If you can draft a player in the first round, hell any round, and they end up contributing for the positive on the major league deal, well you struck it rich. I think we are very fortunate having sale as an option to start if an injury occurs, most teams can't just slip in a pitcher like him at will. I'm almost certain sale will be in the rotation by 2012, since there will potentially be two open spots for his taking.

 

Patience is the companion of wisdom.

 

Once again, good post, qwerty. I just can't help but go back to 2006 with Brandon McCarthy. We all remember how he was supposed to be that '6th' starter and insurance in case somebody got hurt. Now ultimately nobody got hurt. But wasn't it clear that a Freddy Garcia, a guy that lost like 5 miles off his fastball [Kalapse's flamethrower Freddy sig is the stuff of legend] could've used a break or when Mark Buehrle was doing his best Todd Ritchie impression during the second half of that season that he could've used a rest? It was brought up multiple times in the papers and in the media that maybe Brandon should slide into the rotation and give somebody a break. I distinctly remember both Ozzie and Cooper saying no way they would do that because Brandon's arm was not stretched out enough to start. So what was all the 6th starter and insurance s*** about in the first place? Now I'm not saying that's exactly what would happen with Sale. But I am skeptical. And they both have similar frames [basically they could stand to spend an entire week at a buffet]. And neither had/have ideal deliveries. Now would it be a tragedy if Sale ultimately ends up a reliever for a year? Not really. As long as it's a year. It's certainly not maximizing a first round pick otherwise. Especially a 13th pick. I just don't like to hear 'well, our first round picks usually suck anyway, so anything we can get out of Sale would be gravy.' I'll never accept that. I just can't off the top of my head think of many situations where a young guy that's always started spent an entire year in the bullpen and then became a quality starter the next year. I guess Dempster did it at a much older age. And I think a lot of people seem to be oblivious to the likelyhood that Sale is going to go through growing pains regardless. Like he's coming to become a Thornton clone overnight. Obviously he's a position player, but we all saw what happened to Beckham. Too much is being made of 20 innings or whatever it was he pitched in last year.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Jordan4life

[Jordan4life_2007]

Not if he turns out to be a really, really good reliever or closer. Good relievers aren't as easy to come by as you're making it sound. They're actually quite the opposite.

 

3E8's post is not a "loser attitude", it's a realistic attitude. No team goes into the draft throwing darts because they're conceding that they're first pick will probably stink. But that doesn't mean they are unaware of the fact that it's probable the player won't pan out.

 

Never said they were easy to come by. This is all about efficiency. And it's not efficient from a baseball standpoint to invest such a high pick on a guy that ultimately ends up a reliever, no matter how good. Scott Shields was one of the most dominant set-up guys of the last decade and he was a 38th round pick. And please don't tell me you think Sale has a good chance to be as good as Shields, who was absolutely filthy in his prime. Octavio Dotel, Latroy Hawkins, Authur Rhodes and a s***load of other guys that I can't think of off the top of my head were either later round picks or amateur FA signings [i'm talking strictly set-up guys here]. Don't even get me started on closers. They're a dime a dozen. Aside from Rivera, of course.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Jordan4life

[gatnom]

There should be no disappointment if the first round pick turns out to be a good, contributing MLB player considering the great majority of first round players turn out to be nothing and some never even play a single inning in the big leagues. If Sale would've have turned out to be a career AAA player, then that would have been disappointing. Remember, he was picked 13th, not 5th or better.

 

Like qwerty said, adding to his value is the fact he was able to contribute almost immediately. Not many teams are fortunate enough to have that from their first-round picks.

 

If Gordon Beckham were to become merely an average to above average second baseman, would you not at least be slightly disappointed? It is the same with Sale. As I said in my post, I would gladly take some value for the pick if Sale were to end up in the pen over having no value for the pick at all if he turned into a AAA player.

 

Personally, I want Sale to start out the year as a starter, whether that be in Chicago or Charlotte, and have him transition into the pen around mid-season if we can acquire no other help via trade or promotion. That way, he's at least getting some time to work towards entering our rotation instead of completely halting his development.

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

If Gordon Beckham were to become merely an average to above average second baseman, would you not at least be slightly disappointed? It is the same with Sale. As I said in my post, I would gladly take some value for the pick if Sale were to end up in the pen over having no value for the pick at all if he turned into a AAA player.

 

I get what you're saying here. Little different in Beckham's case. I will never diss the Sox for taking Beckham. If he flops then hell, he just wasn't that good.

 

Personally, I want Sale to start out the year as a starter, whether that be in Chicago or Charlotte, and have him transition into the pen around mid-season if we can acquire no other help via trade or promotion. That way, he's at least getting some time to work towards entering our rotation instead of completely halting his development.

 

Agree completely here.

[Quin]

qwerty man, you need to post more.

[ptatc]

Never said they were easy to come by. This is all about efficiency. And it's not efficient from a baseball standpoint to invest such a high pick on a guy that ultimately ends up a reliever, no matter how good. Scott Shields was one of the most dominant set-up guys of the last decade and he was a 38th round pick. And please don't tell me you think Sale has a good chance to be as good as Shields, who was absolutely filthy in his prime. Octavio Dotel, Latroy Hawkins, Authur Rhodes and a s***load of other guys that I can't think of off the top of my head were either later round picks or amateur FA signings [i'm talking strictly set-up guys here]. Don't even get me started on closers. They're a dime a dozen. Aside from Rivera, of course.

 

If this is the case why doesn't every team in baseball have a good to great bullpen?

 

 

[Balta1701]

If this is the case why doesn't every team in baseball have a good to great bullpen?

Because there's more to having a great bullpen than having someone to close games?

 

I just checked the numbers. There were 29 players in MLB with 20 or more saves last year. Know who had the worst ERA out of all of them? Bobby Jenks.

 

Oh sure, some teams shuffled a player into and out of the closers spot, and there were closers like Dotel and Capps who were traded to bolster a team's middle relief, but think about that...there were 28 other pitchers in MLB who had 20 or more saves...all of whom had better ERA's than Bobby Jenks.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Because there's more to having a great bullpen than having someone to close games?

 

I just checked the numbers. There were 29 players in MLB with 20 or more saves last year. Know who had the worst ERA out of all of them? Bobby Jenks.

 

Oh sure, some teams shuffled a player into and out of the closers spot, and there were closers like Dotel and Capps who were traded to bolster a team's middle relief, but think about that...there were 28 other pitchers in MLB who had 20 or more saves...all of whom had better ERA's than Bobby Jenks.

 

You just saved me a detailed post. Thanks.

[BigSqwert]

Because there's more to having a great bullpen than having someone to close games?

 

I just checked the numbers. There were 29 players in MLB with 20 or more saves last year. Know who had the worst ERA out of all of them? Bobby Jenks.

 

Oh sure, some teams shuffled a player into and out of the closers spot, and there were closers like Dotel and Capps who were traded to bolster a team's middle relief, but think about that...there were 28 other pitchers in MLB who had 20 or more saves...all of whom had better ERA's than Bobby Jenks.

Don't let greg see this. Bobby Jenks is the best!

[chw42]

This thread:

[ptatc]

You just saved me a detailed post. Thanks.

 

I still disagree. If relievers are a "dime a dozen" as you said, then all bullpens should be good. You make it sound like it'a easy to find good relievers. If it is then every team should have a good pen.

 

Give me your detailed post as to why good relievers are a dime a dozen but why not every team has a good bullpen.

 

[ptatc]

Because there's more to having a great bullpen than having someone to close games?

 

I just checked the numbers. There were 29 players in MLB with 20 or more saves last year. Know who had the worst ERA out of all of them? Bobby Jenks.

 

Oh sure, some teams shuffled a player into and out of the closers spot, and there were closers like Dotel and Capps who were traded to bolster a team's middle relief, but think about that...there were 28 other pitchers in MLB who had 20 or more saves...all of whom had better ERA's than Bobby Jenks.

 

His comments were in relation to middle relievers not closers. He said don't even get him started on closer. I disagree with that as well but it's a different discussion. I agree that a bullpen is more than a closer but he seems to think that good relievers are a "dime a dozen" but I just don't see them everywhere in baseball.