Sale-ing Away with me...

[Balta1701]

I'll never buy a 6 man rotation idea with this team again after the McCarthy lie in 2006.

A 6 man rotation is really impractical with a 25 man roster limitation. You limit your bench to 4 players and you limit your bullpen to 6 players.

[LittleHurt05]

I voted keep him as a starter, then move him to the pen if/when Peavy comes back.

 

All I know is that if we are fighting for a playoff spot or in the playoffs, Sale needs to be on the roster. He's too valuable of a weapon to not have on the team come crunch time. With the starters they have, I don't know if that spot is in the rotation come September/October, so I want him in the bullpen then. If he starts at the beginning of the year, it could also help him build up some innings in his arm for the future.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I voted keep him as a starter, then move him to the pen if/when Peavy comes back.

 

All I know is that if we are fighting for a playoff spot or in the playoffs, Sale needs to be on the roster. He's too valuable of a weapon to not have on the team come crunch time. With the starters they have, I don't know if that spot is in the rotation come September/October, so I want him in the bullpen then. If he starts at the beginning of the year, it could also help him build up some innings in his arm for the future.

 

He would be. Minor league seasons end in August, so Sale would then be called up for the final month, aka, crunch time.

[LittleHurt05]

He would be. Minor league seasons end in August, so Sale would then be called up for the final month, aka, crunch time.

 

Good point. I didnt think about that. I guess I would have to see the state of the rotation/bullpen when Peavy comes back. If the team really needs him in the bullpen in June/July, then definitely throw him in there. However, if they seem to be doing fine, then let him start in Charlotte for a while, just as long as his arm will still be available in September/October.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Sale showed what he can do in the bullpen. Hasn't shown anything as a starter. So with regards to this year only he should be in the pen. Sox need a closer and he appears to be the most likely candidate. If Sale can close as effectively as he did last year in that small sample size all year it will be huge.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

BTW glad you did this poll . I'd been thinking of doing the same thing and nice Styx reference .

[Eminor3rd]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/t...sale-conundrum/

 

In recent seasons, teams have come up with inventive ways to utilize their young pitching prospects. One of the more popular strategies among teams is to let their prospects gain experience in the bullpen. Some pitchers (Neftali Feliz) stick in the bullpen permanently, some (Phil Hughes) are eventually moved into the rotation, and some (Joba Chamberlain) are jerked between the two roles. The Chicago White Sox will be in a similar situation with Chris Sale this season.?

 

While it has already been determined that Sale will prepare as a starting pitcher this off-season, his stay in the rotation may depend on Jake Peavy‘s health. Since the White Sox have five solid starters, Sale would be the most likely candidate to move back to the bullpen once Peavy recovers. Although this looks like the most likely scenario for Sale in 2011, let’s explore the thought of employing Sale in one role.

 

After throwing only 10.1 innings of minor league ball, Sale was promoted to the White Sox bullpen. Despite his inexperience, Sale’s performance out of the bullpen was exceptional. In 23.1 innings out of the bullpen, Sale accumulated 32 strikeouts with a 1.93 ERA (2.74 FIP). Sale also proved himself in save situations, going a perfect 4 for 4. Although it was a limited sample of innings, Sale proved that he has strong potential out of the bullpen.

 

While it’s tempting to leave Sale in the bullpen, the White Sox could extract more value from Sale in a starting role. Although obvious, the more innings a player pitches, the more opportunities he has to accumulate WAR. For example, even though Neftali Feliz had a great season out of the bullpen, he produced the same WAR as both Bronson Arroyo and Chris Narveson. Even if Sale manages a season like Feliz’s, he may produce the same value as a league average starter.

 

Although Sale has experience as a starter, there are concerns about whether he can succeed as a starter in the majors. Many analysts point to Sale’s unorthodox delivery and thin frame as signs that he might breakdown under a starter’s workload. Sale also throws at a lower arm slot than most, which could lead to problems with opposite handed batters (see Justin Masterson). Then again, Sale was drafted as a starter and it would behoove the White Sox to see if he can succeed in that role.

 

At the same time, Jake Peavy is expected to miss an early chunk of the season and Sale is the logical candidate to take his place in the rotation until he recovers. White Sox Pitching Coach Don Cooper has already expressed concerns about moving Sale between roles, but it seems like the most likely outcome in 2011. Although it comes with more risks, moving Sale into the rotation permanently gives the Sox the best chance to maximize his value but creates a logjam once Peavy returns. While it’s possible Kenny Williams trades one of his starters to allow Sale to start the entire season, it’s more likely Sale reprises his bullpen role once Peavy is healthy. If the White Sox do utilize this strategy with Sale, however, they will be no closer to determining his long-term role once the season ends, leaving them in the same conundrum the following off-season.

 

[knightni]

BTW glad you did this poll . I'd been thinking of doing the same thing and nice Styx reference .

I almost wanted to adjust the title to "Come Sale Away With Me."

[Balta1701]

I almost wanted to adjust the title to "Come Sale Away With Me."

Not only is this song in my head constantly now thanks to this thread, but I'm going to make sure to take it out on the rest of you by using that song in game threads & such for the next 6 season

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Not only is this song in my head constantly now thanks to this thread, but I'm going to make sure to take it out on the rest of you by using that song in game threads & such for the next 6 season

That's ok any rap references go completely over my head. At least I'd know what you're talking about. Styx played in my HS gym back in the day, not too long after "Lady " was released.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/t...sale-conundrum/

Good article overall, and the comp to Masterson is one of the lesser points that gets discussed in the Sale closer vs. starter debates, yet it's a solid one. Sale flies open to right-handed hitters and gives them the opportunity to see the ball longer, which means that Sale as a starter is really going to have to develop that changeup if he's going to be successful facing RH hitters three times per game or so. As a closer Sale can use the change to keep hitters honest, but as a starter it'll be his main weapon, especially when he's working in the low-90's as opposed to the mid to upper-90's as would be the case out of the rotation. Same thing goes with Sale's slider vs. LH, it's going to be something he'll have to rely on a lot more and isn't going to appear nearly as devastating when he has to throw it for a strike in a hitters count following a FB that is 4-5mph slower than what we see out of the pen. Sale's best weapons are blazing FB, deception, and the ability to throw 3 pitches, but putting him out there as a starter takes away some of that blaze off the FB, minimizes that deception given repeat ABs, and forces him to throw his offspeed stuff for strikes more often. Also, in closing situations the game is on the line, and hitters often get in "swing for the fences" mode which allows someone like Sale to go out there and, more often than normal, get ahead of a hitter with a couple decent-to-bad sliders because the guy at the plate is sitting on the FB. But it seems like in earlier parts of the game hitters are more patient, and may wait for the pitcher to get a strike or two over before getting serious. And then you have the durability/mechanical concerns.

 

The only thing I disagree with is any kind of implication that players are worth their WAR and that Sale as a closer is basically Bronson Arroyo. To me that's just like comparing the OPS of a corner OF with the OPS of a SS. That is nuts. Sale as a closer is horrible sight for hitter. His job is to kill rallies, send people home, and do it all year long whether in the regular season or in the playoffs, big game vs. a division rival or against the lowly Royals. Arroyo's job OTOH is to do a decent job eating innings over the course of a 162-game season, helping his team get to the playoffs and then hopefully (for his team's sake) hiding out at the back of the playoff rotation. There are far more Bronson Arroyo types in baseball than Chris Sale types.

 

BTW I don't have a major problem with Sale as a starter even though I'd much rather see him as a closer. I just see it an unnecessary move that could easily backfire. And I don't see his ceiling as a starter nearly as high as it seems most of the people here do. I've seen a couple times at least where people have said he'd be at or above Danks' level. I completely disagree with that.

[chw42]

Good article overall, and the comp to Masterson is one of the lesser points that gets discussed in the Sale closer vs. starter debates, yet it's a solid one. Sale flies open to right-handed hitters and gives them the opportunity to see the ball longer, which means that Sale as a starter is really going to have to develop that changeup if he's going to be successful facing RH hitters three times per game or so. As a closer Sale can use the change to keep hitters honest, but as a starter it'll be his main weapon, especially when he's working in the low-90's as opposed to the mid to upper-90's as would be the case out of the rotation. Same thing goes with Sale's slider vs. LH, it's going to be something he'll have to rely on a lot more and isn't going to appear nearly as devastating when he has to throw it for a strike in a hitters count following a FB that is 4-5mph slower than what we see out of the pen. Sale's best weapons are blazing FB, deception, and the ability to throw 3 pitches, but putting him out there as a starter takes away some of that blaze off the FB, minimizes that deception given repeat ABs, and forces him to throw his offspeed stuff for strikes more often. Also, in closing situations the game is on the line, and hitters often get in "swing for the fences" mode which allows someone like Sale to go out there and, more often than normal, get ahead of a hitter with a couple decent-to-bad sliders because the guy at the plate is sitting on the FB. But it seems like in earlier parts of the game hitters are more patient, and may wait for the pitcher to get a strike or two over before getting serious. And then you have the durability/mechanical concerns.

 

The only thing I disagree with is any kind of implication that players are worth their WAR and that Sale as a closer is basically Bronson Arroyo. To me that's just like comparing the OPS of a corner OF with the OPS of a SS. That is nuts. Sale as a closer is horrible sight for hitter. His job is to kill rallies, send people home, and do it all year long whether in the regular season or in the playoffs, big game vs. a division rival or against the lowly Royals. Arroyo's job OTOH is to do a decent job eating innings over the course of a 162-game season, helping his team get to the playoffs and then hopefully (for his team's sake) hiding out at the back of the playoff rotation. There are far more Bronson Arroyo types in baseball than Chris Sale types.

 

BTW I don't have a major problem with Sale as a starter even though I'd much rather see him as a closer. I just see it an unnecessary move that could easily backfire. And I don't see his ceiling as a starter nearly as high as it seems most of the people here do. I've seen a couple times at least where people have said he'd be at or above Danks' level. I completely disagree with that.

 

There have been attempts at trying to improve reliever WAR by using leverage index. That way, the closer, or anyone who is in an important role, usually ends up getting more credit for his contributions. But right now, it's just best to realize that it's imperfect at this point.

Edited January 12, 2011 by chw42

[Eminor3rd]

Good article overall, and the comp to Masterson is one of the lesser points that gets discussed in the Sale closer vs. starter debates, yet it's a solid one. Sale flies open to right-handed hitters and gives them the opportunity to see the ball longer, which means that Sale as a starter is really going to have to develop that changeup if he's going to be successful facing RH hitters three times per game or so. As a closer Sale can use the change to keep hitters honest, but as a starter it'll be his main weapon, especially when he's working in the low-90's as opposed to the mid to upper-90's as would be the case out of the rotation. Same thing goes with Sale's slider vs. LH, it's going to be something he'll have to rely on a lot more and isn't going to appear nearly as devastating when he has to throw it for a strike in a hitters count following a FB that is 4-5mph slower than what we see out of the pen. Sale's best weapons are blazing FB, deception, and the ability to throw 3 pitches, but putting him out there as a starter takes away some of that blaze off the FB, minimizes that deception given repeat ABs, and forces him to throw his offspeed stuff for strikes more often. Also, in closing situations the game is on the line, and hitters often get in "swing for the fences" mode which allows someone like Sale to go out there and, more often than normal, get ahead of a hitter with a couple decent-to-bad sliders because the guy at the plate is sitting on the FB. But it seems like in earlier parts of the game hitters are more patient, and may wait for the pitcher to get a strike or two over before getting serious. And then you have the durability/mechanical concerns.

 

The only thing I disagree with is any kind of implication that players are worth their WAR and that Sale as a closer is basically Bronson Arroyo. To me that's just like comparing the OPS of a corner OF with the OPS of a SS. That is nuts. Sale as a closer is horrible sight for hitter. His job is to kill rallies, send people home, and do it all year long whether in the regular season or in the playoffs, big game vs. a division rival or against the lowly Royals. Arroyo's job OTOH is to do a decent job eating innings over the course of a 162-game season, helping his team get to the playoffs and then hopefully (for his team's sake) hiding out at the back of the playoff rotation. There are far more Bronson Arroyo types in baseball than Chris Sale types.

 

BTW I don't have a major problem with Sale as a starter even though I'd much rather see him as a closer. I just see it an unnecessary move that could easily backfire. And I don't see his ceiling as a starter nearly as high as it seems most of the people here do. I've seen a couple times at least where people have said he'd be at or above Danks' level. I completely disagree with that.

 

I agree, wholeheartedly, that his stuff will not be nearly as dominant in a starter role. That's why I'm in favor of starting him in Charlotte and letting him figure his game out on AAA guys instead of at the bigs. I'm of the opinion that we can ALWAYS convert him to a reliever, but we should give him as much of a chance as we can to let him figure out how to be a starter first.