Repeating throwing motion

[ptatc]

here is an excellent study showing how difficult it is to replicate the throwing motion.

 

The pitchers all had decreased proprioception (unconscious awareness of joint postion) after just three innings of a simulated game.

 

Think of the implications on an injured elbow.

elbow_position_replication.pdf

[southsider2k5]

Thanks for the article. Any chance at getting a layman's summary? That was way over my paidgrade!

[ptatc]

Thanks for the article. Any chance at getting a layman's summary? That was way over my paidgrade!

 

Basically what it means is that even after only 3 innings the pitcher is no longer unconsciously aware of the position of his elbow. He will have difficulty repeating his motion because neurologically he doesn't know where the angle of his elbow.

 

Some ramifications are:

 

Maybe young pitchers need time to develop more neurologically (through repetiton) in the minors realy more than innings or physically

 

Maybe injuries can be prevented or rehabbed through different neuro methods than previously thought.

 

Maybe its neurologic fatigue not physical fatigue that causes pitchers to lose their mechanics and increase stress on their arms.

 

 

Just an intersting food for though article.

 

It's a very important concept from a mechanics standpoint that they lost it after just 3 innings.

Edited January 14, 2011 by ptatc

[Jake]

I didn't read all the way through since much of it is way over my head. But why measure in innings? That seems so imprecise, why not have a pitch count?

[ptatc]

I didn't read all the way through since much of it is way over my head. But why measure in innings? That seems so imprecise, why not have a pitch count?

 

You could do it either way. Since it was done with collegiate pitchers (where most are starters and relievers) they did simulated games to be as close to real pitching as possible.

[knightni]

ptatc, have you heard much about Mike Marshall's pitching techniques?

 

Do you think that they are valid options to combat arm/shoulder injury?

 

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/baseba...hanics_001.html

[bigruss]

I didn't read all the way through since much of it is way over my head. But why measure in innings? That seems so imprecise, why not have a pitch count?

I didn't read the article but maybe it has to do with the breaks in between innings.

[ptatc]

ptatc, have you heard much about Mike Marshall's pitching techniques?

 

Do you think that they are valid options to combat arm/shoulder injury?

 

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/baseba...hanics_001.html

 

Yes, I'm familiar with Marshall's approach. I'm not totally aginst it but I don't like the way he has them lock the front knee. It really stops the monmentum and you lose alot of kinetic energy. It does put more stress on the legs and spine which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I haven't worked with anyone who has used it so I have no direct knowledge of injuries or lack thereof. Like with any pitching model there are just a few things that make me hesitant. I prefer the kinematic pitching model which just takes into account each joint or segment and tries to minimize the forces in all of them. There are a few good articles which describe it and although it's somewhat mainstream I think it's still the best approach.

Edited January 14, 2011 by ptatc

[Jake]

Mike Marshall is a strange bird and it's hard for the layman to understand his reasoning at times because he refuses to present his reasoning in a way that is easy to understand.

 

You'll see O'Leary started changing his mind about Marshall: Linky

 

I've worked with Tom House instructors and briefly House himself all my life and generally agree with their principles. Prior became the poster boy and of course that hurts House's credibility, but the pitcher that truly embodies the House method is Nolan Ryan, and of course that is a much better track record. What I appreciate most about House is that he bases his mechanical philosophy off of scientific study of proven pitchers, and his "ideal motion" is thus fluid as more technology becomes available. Many pitchers that have never been associated with House have motions that would almost completely satisfy him as well, interestingly enough. The Rocket would be one instance that comes to mind, and even Maddux. Surely there is more than one way to skin this cat, and of course genetics/work ethic/other variables can cause one instructor to look better or worse than he really is.

[ptatc]

Mike Marshall is a strange bird and it's hard for the layman to understand his reasoning at times because he refuses to present his reasoning in a way that is easy to understand.

 

You'll see O'Leary started changing his mind about Marshall: Linky

 

I've worked with Tom House instructors and briefly House himself all my life and generally agree with their principles. Prior became the poster boy and of course that hurts House's credibility, but the pitcher that truly embodies the House method is Nolan Ryan, and of course that is a much better track record. What I appreciate most about House is that he bases his mechanical philosophy off of scientific study of proven pitchers, and his "ideal motion" is thus fluid as more technology becomes available. Many pitchers that have never been associated with House have motions that would almost completely satisfy him as well, interestingly enough. The Rocket would be one instance that comes to mind, and even Maddux. Surely there is more than one way to skin this cat, and of course genetics/work ethic/other variables can cause one instructor to look better or worse than he really is.

 

I'm not particularly a fan of House and his methods. Prior was one example and so is Strasburg. Larry Rothschild is also a big proponent of Houses's method from their time together here in Homewood. While all pitching mechanics are debatable, the thing I don't like about it is that he based most of it on working with Nolan Ryan and a few others. It really wasn't a scientific study as much as just seeing what made some successful. A prime example is teaching to throw the curve. House like the football toss as a way to teach it as it teaches you to ulnarly deviate or move the wrist toward the little finger. It makes for a great curve however it puts a great deal of stress on the elbow as this is where the muscles for this action originate. I also think the towel drill which he teaches creates too much extension and leaves the shoulder in a poor mechanical advantage.

 

I prefer a biomechanical model to distribute the forces throughout the body.

 

I have a good general article on mechanics based on this approach but it's too big to attach here as it contains a number of pictures during the pitching motion.

Edited January 14, 2011 by ptatc

[Balta1701]

Wait, so there is actually a Dr. House?

[Jake]

I'm not particularly a fan of House and his methods. Prior was one example and so is Strasburg. Larry Rothschild is also a big proponent of Houses's method from their time together here in Homewood. While all pitching mechanics are debatable, the thing I don't like about it is that he based most of it on working with Nolan Ryan and a few others. It really wasn't a scientific study as much as just seeing what made some successful. A prime example is teaching to throw the curve. House like the football toss as a way to teach it as it teaches you to ulnarly deviate or move the wrist toward the little finger. It makes for a great curve however it puts a great deal of stress on the elbow as this is where the muscles for this action originate. I also think the towel drill which he teaches creates too much extension and leaves the shoulder in a poor mechanical advantage.

 

I prefer a biomechanical model to distribute the forces throughout the body.

 

I have a good general article on mechanics based on this approach but it's too big to attach here as it contains a number of pictures during the pitching motion.

 

 

O'Leary points out a commonality in Prior and others' motions that he believes led them to injury, you may want to check that out. Basically, when the elbow is higher than the shoulder before acceleration begins, the instance of injury seems much higher (I say seems because he hasn't done an empirical study, just looking at patterns). It has been noted that Prior has changed this in his latest comeback attempt, which is in progress. Guys like Clemens and Maddux didn't have this particular trait and of course have had long careers. Once again, it is hard to say whether that their durability is because of that or something else or pure luck.

 

I was never a big fan of the towel drill either, I rarely do it because normally the towel becomes distracting and you tend to cheat just to succeed in the drill. I like several of his drills, but I don't do the towel drill nor do I throw a football. My arm angle is too low for the football drill to make as much sense.

 

His focus with me was getting momentum towards home/stride length maximized and maximizing hip/shoulder separation.

[ptatc]

O'Leary points out a commonality in Prior and others' motions that he believes led them to injury, you may want to check that out. Basically, when the elbow is higher than the shoulder before acceleration begins, the instance of injury seems much higher (I say seems because he hasn't done an empirical study, just looking at patterns). It has been noted that Prior has changed this in his latest comeback attempt, which is in progress. Guys like Clemens and Maddux didn't have this particular trait and of course have had long careers. Once again, it is hard to say whether that their durability is because of that or something else or pure luck.

 

I was never a big fan of the towel drill either, I rarely do it because normally the towel becomes distracting and you tend to cheat just to succeed in the drill. I like several of his drills, but I don't do the towel drill nor do I throw a football. My arm angle is too low for the football drill to make as much sense.

 

His focus with me was getting momentum towards home/stride length maximized and maximizing hip/shoulder separation.

 

Be careful with letting your stride length get too long . This is one reason some pitcher's elbow gets too high. They get off balance and attempt to compensate.

 

I would agree with the point about the elbow height. This will cause an impingement of the rotator cuff in the shoulder.

 

There really is no one perfect model for mechanics. Some pitcher can get away with what many people would say were awful mechanics and never have a problem. It's only when problems occur that they need to be addressed. This applies to prfessionals after they,ve been pitching awhile. yooung pitcher's just need to work on repeating a delivery which is what the article that started this post talked about.

[ptatc]

Wait, so there is actually a Dr. House?

 

Tom House is a pitching coach and baseball coach. I don't believe he has a doctoare. But like Don Cooper he may have an honorary one. (and yes I know you were joking)

[Jake]

Be careful with letting your stride length get too long . This is one reason some pitcher's elbow gets too high. They get off balance and attempt to compensate.

 

I would agree with the point about the elbow height. This will cause an impingement of the rotator cuff in the shoulder.

 

There really is no one perfect model for mechanics. Some pitcher can get away with what many people would say were awful mechanics and never have a problem. It's only when problems occur that they need to be addressed. This applies to prfessionals after they,ve been pitching awhile. yooung pitcher's just need to work on repeating a delivery which is what the article that started this post talked about.

 

The trainers here at college have found that I have really poor flexibility in both shoulders and especially my throwing arm vs my non-throwing. They were really concerned but never acted on it (probably forgot). What kind of ramification do you think this has?

[ptatc]

The trainers here at college have found that I have really poor flexibility in both shoulders and especially my throwing arm vs my non-throwing. They were really concerned but never acted on it (probably forgot). What kind of ramification do you think this has?

 

It's very common to have less flexibility in internal rotation from one shoulder to the other. Some researchers have speculated as to reasons why. It depends on what motions are tight as to what some of the ramifications may be. Do you remember which motions they were discussing.

[Jake]

It's very common to have less flexibility in internal rotation from one shoulder to the other. Some researchers have speculated as to reasons why. It depends on what motions are tight as to what some of the ramifications may be. Do you remember which motions they were discussing.

 

 

Well I recall internal and external rotation both were very bad. The basic test they did on all athletes was to have you try to clasp your hands behind your back, one reaching from above one from below. I still can hardly reach my throwing hand above my waist from that below position for that test.

[ptatc]

Well I recall internal and external rotation both were very bad. The basic test they did on all athletes was to have you try to clasp your hands behind your back, one reaching from above one from below. I still can hardly reach my throwing hand above my waist from that below position for that test.

Those tests are basic tests for internal and external rotation. The one by the waist is for internal rotation. This is not uncommon for pitchers. Your best bet is to continue to do that type of stretch to improve the range. Again no one has tied to specific injury. But some think it may lead to stretching out the capsule and creating a "loose" shoulder.