Idea: Trade Jackson for Joba

[TheChrisSamsa]

Completely off topic, but Buster Olney's blog reminded me of this. How sweet would it be if Nick Swisher never existed, and we had Gio Gonzalez back? We would have a pretty awesome rotation of Peavy-Buehrle-Danks-Jackson-Floyd-Gio. That's 6 very solid starters.

 

I think Gio Gonzalez will haunt the White Sox more than guys like Clayton Richard, Brandon McCarthey and Daniel Hudson and if I recall correctly there wasn't much of an uprising when he got traded.

 

Also.. would the White Sox have traded for Jackson if Gio were still on the staff? The rotation last season probably would have looked like this: Buehrle-Danks-Floyd-Peavy-Gio. Maybe they still would have snagged Freddy for insurance, and then Daniel Hudson would have continued to wait in the wings. That would be some serious depth at SP. I doubt Kenny would have bothered moving Hudson for Jackson at that point.

 

Back on topic: I want nothing to do with Joba, especially as a closer. I just don't think he has it in him, whether he's on the Yankees or anywhere else.

[Steve9347]

Uh, no f***ing way. I want E-Jax this year.

[RockRaines]

Was this an idea posted by someone from a yanks board? Because thats about how bats*** crazy it is.

[elrockinMT]

Was this an idea posted by someone from a yanks board? Because thats about how bats*** crazy it is.

 

 

That's a good point and I vote to close this topic and then burn it

[southsider2k5]

I think Gio Gonzalez will haunt the White Sox more than guys like Clayton Richard, Brandon McCarthey and Daniel Hudson and if I recall correctly there wasn't much of an uprising when he got traded.

 

Also.. would the White Sox have traded for Jackson if Gio were still on the staff? The rotation last season probably would have looked like this: Buehrle-Danks-Floyd-Peavy-Gio. Maybe they still would have snagged Freddy for insurance, and then Daniel Hudson would have continued to wait in the wings. That would be some serious depth at SP. I doubt Kenny would have bothered moving Hudson for Jackson at that point.

 

Back on topic: I want nothing to do with Joba, especially as a closer. I just don't think he has it in him, whether he's on the Yankees or anywhere else.

 

So many if's in those scenarios. Do the Sox even trade for Peavy if Gio had emerged? It is impossible to look at the Sox in the same light if you change something years ago.

[Balta1701]

So many if's in those scenarios. Do the Sox even trade for Peavy if Gio had emerged? It is impossible to look at the Sox in the same light if you change something years ago.

Gio hadn't really "Emerged" by the time the Sox traded for Peavy though. He'd made it to the A's, but he didn't really do anything more than Richard in 2009, for example. It was 2010 that Gio really broke out.

[witesoxfan]

Gonzalez has to prove that he can maintain his ground ball rate while improving his control if he is going to remain a #2 pitcher. His batted ball rates were good last year, but he was touted as a flyball pitcher when the Sox had him, and he was pretty damn lucky on his flyballs last year as well (7.4% FB/HR). If that regresses to the league average or even a bit above that, which would increase his homers allowed anywhere from 5-10, his ERA is already jumping a quarter of a point at the very minimum, and that's maintaining his current flyball rate, which could very well be lower than is to be expected from him. And, because his BABIP was already pretty low at .283, he is likely going to allow a few more hits (though with a good defense and good stuff, he can probably maintain a lower than league average BABIP). If his flyball rate increases along with the regression, his ERA could sit around 4.25-4.50 next year.

 

I'm not going to make any predictions, largely because I wasn't actually able to see him pitch, but just because he has been successful over his past 40 or so starts doesn't mean anything looking at it from the White Sox perspective. For all we know, his HR/FB could have been the complete opposite in Chicago, and because the White Sox defense wasn't as good as the A's, he could have been even worse in 2009 (had he been called up) or 2010, and that may have been the signal the White Sox needed to trade him while he still had some value.

 

If there is a player to be pissed at in this jumbled mess, it's Nick Swisher.

 

In the end, looking at Gio Gonzalez as if he could have been the difference is absolutely silly. There is too much convoluted information between the time he was traded until today to be able to make any rational judgment on what Gonzalez could have been - so forget about it.

[Balta1701]

he was pretty damn lucky on his flyballs last year as well (7.4% FB/HR).

Don't forget though, he plays in Oakland, which is going to pound those numbers downwards. B-R says that the MLB average was 7.5% last year, so Gio's isn't bad at all, and there's plenty of downwards room; Dallas Braden's numbers the last 2 years have been 4.9%.

[Vote4Pedro]

Was this an idea posted by someone from a yanks board? Because thats about how bats*** crazy it is.

i couldn't have said this any better. all this trade will do is hurt us and of course we are going "all in" this season

[shago]

Joba has dominant closer stuff and with the signing of Soriano is expendable.

no he doesn't.......

[witesoxfan]

no he doesn't.......

 

When he is healthy, he has a fastball that can touch 100 and a killer slider, so he absolutely has the stuff to be a closer. Whether he actually has that this year or in the future is a completely different story. This isn't like talking about a 38 year old Greg Maddux though, this is still a guy who turned 25 in September who can easily find his stuff again. Right now, it doesn't make sense for the Sox, but if it were a buy low type of scenario, I could see the Sox being all over it.

[Vote4Pedro]

When he is healthy, he has a fastball that can touch 100 and a killer slider, so he absolutely has the stuff to be a closer. Whether he actually has that this year or in the future is a completely different story. This isn't like talking about a 38 year old Greg Maddux though, this is still a guy who turned 25 in September who can easily find his stuff again. Right now, it doesn't make sense for the Sox, but if it were a buy low type of scenario, I could see the Sox being all over it.

just because your fastball can touch 100 doesnt mean that you have closer "stuff" you have to have the mentality, you can't just throw anyone you feel like back there and expect them to succeed. i agree it is a buy low type of scenerio but there is no way you get the guy for EJax he has too many question marks right now and until he proves he can put it back together i wouldnt trade anything major for him

[witesoxfan]

just because your fastball can touch 100 doesnt mean that you have closer "stuff" you have to have the mentality, you can't just throw anyone you feel like back there and expect them to succeed. i agree it is a buy low type of scenerio but there is no way you get the guy for EJax he has too many question marks right now and until he proves he can put it back together i wouldnt trade anything major for him

 

Mental attributes have virtually nothing to do with physical attributes. If he can't handle the rigors of closing, that is a completely different debate. He absolutely has closer stuff, because of his fastball and slider.

 

And when I refer to stuff, I don't refer to his makeup (as in, "does he have the stuff to handle it?"), I am referring to the quality of his pitches.

[Balta1701]

Cashman was asked, once again, about Joba Chamberlain starting. He said that Chamberlain hasn’t been the same pitcher since his injury that occurred in Texas back in 2008. This has been suspected, but I believe it’s the first time that the Yankees have publicly acknowledged that Chamberlain’s injury was a big deal.

Joba's shoulder might never be the same.

[iamshack]

Joba's shoulder might never be the same.

It was the flies, I tell you. The flies!

[Quin]

When he is healthy, he has a fastball that can touch 100 and a killer slider, so he absolutely has the stuff to be a closer. Whether he actually has that this year or in the future is a completely different story. This isn't like talking about a 38 year old Greg Maddux though, this is still a guy who turned 25 in September who can easily find his stuff again. Right now, it doesn't make sense for the Sox, but if it were a buy low type of scenario, I could see the Sox being all over it.

 

I swear to god I thought we were talking about E-Jax right there.

[witesoxfan]

I swear to god I thought we were talking about E-Jax right there.

 

Ha, well while that may be true, and Jackson could certainly be a dynamite reliever, he has proven to be an extremely durable starting pitcher and very capable of doing so. It does go to show that trading Jackson for Joba just simply does not make sense.

[Heads22]

Ha, well while that may be true, and Jackson could certainly be a dynamite reliever, he has proven to be an extremely durable starting pitcher and very capable of doing so. It does go to show that trading Jackson for Joba just simply does not make sense.

 

I don't think that some people realize the kind of value Jackson does indeed hold, including what he showed after we acquired him last year.

[Harry Chappas]

I don't think that some people realize the kind of value Jackson does indeed hold, including what he showed after we acquired him last year.

 

It is more of a product of people looking at who was traded for him than actually what he can do. He can easily be the White Sox best pitcher next season and one of the best in baseball.

[Jordan4life_2007]

It is more of a product of people looking at who was traded for him than actually what he can do. He can easily be the White Sox best pitcher next season and one of the best in baseball.

 

No, it's more of a product of his career 48-51 record, 4.62 ERA, 1.462 WHIP, mediocre peripherals, only 1 year left on his current contract and his agent, whom we don't deal with.

[witesoxfan]

No, it's more of a product of his career 48-51 record, 4.62 ERA, 1.462 WHIP, mediocre peripherals, only 1 year left on his current contract and his agent, whom we don't deal with.

 

Of course, over his past 3 seasons, which spans 606.2 IP, he has put up a 37-32 record, a 4.15 ERA, 1.38 WHIP, improved control from his first few years in the majors, and an improving K-rate. Oh, and his HR/9 is 1.1 over that time, but that's manageable.

 

Speaking of his K/9 rate - it was 5.3 in 2008 when most people thought he was just lucky. It moved up to 6.8 in 2009 with the Tigers, and it was 7.8 this past year in Arizona and Chicago (including 9.2 during his 75 innings with the White Sox).

 

He's not the same pitcher he was his first few years in the league and using those numbers to skew his most recent statistics doesn't show his true value as a pitcher. You know that and you're better than that. I can understand being upset about what the Sox gave up and that they didn't get an elite pitcher back and any number of other things, but suggesting he's a mediocre or even bad pitcher is wrong. Edwin Jackson is pretty damn good.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Of course, over his past 3 seasons, which spans 606.2 IP, he has put up a 37-32 record, a 4.15 ERA, 1.38 WHIP, improved control from his first few years in the majors, and an improving K-rate. Oh, and his HR/9 is 1.1 over that time, but that's manageable.

 

Speaking of his K/9 rate - it was 5.3 in 2008 when most people thought he was just lucky. It moved up to 6.8 in 2009 with the Tigers, and it was 7.8 this past year in Arizona and Chicago (including 9.2 during his 75 innings with the White Sox).

 

He's not the same pitcher he was his first few years in the league and using those numbers to skew his most recent statistics doesn't show his true value as a pitcher. You know that and you're better than that. I can understand being upset about what the Sox gave up and that they didn't get an elite pitcher back and any number of other things, but suggesting he's a mediocre or even bad pitcher is wrong. Edwin Jackson is pretty damn good.

 

Pretty damn good? He's been about league average the last three years [think Bronson Arroyo] and is the epitome of inconsistency. Javy Vazquez with slightly worse stuff.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Jordan4life

[TheChrisSamsa]

Pretty damn good? He's been about league average the last three years [think Bronson Arroyo] and is the epitome of inconsistency. Javy Vazquez with slightly worse stuff.

 

I think it's Edwin's ceiling that gets people excited, if he performs as well as the flashes he has shown, he'll be a damn good pitcher. The 2008/2009 Edwin Jackson is the guy who people are excited about. Edwin Jackson is an extremely good option as the #5 pitcher in the rotation.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I think it's Edwin's ceiling that gets people excited, if he performs as well as the flashes he has shown, he'll be a damn good pitcher. The 2008/2009 Edwin Jackson is the guy who people are excited about. Edwin Jackson is an extremely good option as the #5 pitcher in the rotation.

 

Whoopie! A #5 starter. Nothing says getting optimal value for your top pitching prospect then a #5 starter.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Jordan4life

[witesoxfan]

Pretty damn good? He's been about league average the last three years [think Bronson Arroyo] and is the epitome of inconsistency. Javy Vazquez with slightly worse stuff.

 

I think this entire statement is wrong.

 

#1 - a 4.15 ERA over a 3 year period is extremely good, especially doing it in the American League (for the majority of it). It's not Cy Young good, but if you are going to say something that is above average is league average, then I am going to have a problem with it every single time. Have some perspective here. Over the last 3 years, Edwin Jackson is tied (with, not so ironically enough, Bronson Arroyo and Joe Saunders) for the 46th best ERA at 4.15. You can't simply divide those guys up and say that he is a league average #2, but I would say that you can safely slot him as a pretty good all around #2-3 pitcher on pretty much any staff in the league. That is extremely valuable and, as I said, pretty damn good.

#2 - Bronson Arroyo is also a pretty good pitcher as well, but he would never survive in the American League. He survives by floating junk up there and pitching around good hitters, while Jackson goes right after hitters. I think if you just compare the stuff that both of them feature, you'd make the correct conclusion as well.

#3 - Jackson's ERAs the past 3 years have been 4.42, 3.62, and 4.47. He hasn't thrown fewer than 183.1 IP the previous 3 seasons. He hasn't walked more than 78 or fewer than 70, nor has he allowed more than 27 homers nor less than 21 homers. His strikeouts have shown the greatest inconsistency, but that is because they are trending upwards, which is a good inconsistency to show. Calling him the epitome of inconsistency is hyperbolic and, quite frankly, wrong.

#4 - I think Jackson has better stuff than Vazquez does, but perhaps part of that is because I believe he locates better as well as the fact that he has 2 extremely good pitches instead of 4 simply good pitches. It gives him less to mess around with, and thus, allows him to keep those two pitches extremely sharp. He has other pitches that work too, but they are not his main pitches, which is just fine. Also, considering Jackson has pitched on two postseason teams, and, upon arriving in Chicago last August, pitched his ass off, the stigma that Javy Vazquez carries is not nearly the same as the one that Edwin Jackson carries.

 

I think that covers about everything.

 

Whoopie! A #5 starter. Nothing says getting optimal value for your top pitching prospect then a #5 starter.

 

Again, have some perspective here. He is going into the season as the #5 starter, but you know as well as I do that he could have the best ERA on this team, especially if he continues to show what he did down the stretch last year. He could ultimately be a top 10-20 pitcher in the American League.