danman31 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Aug 24, 2011 -> 01:52 PM) That's a great thought on paper because it is absolutely true that there are greater developmental opportunities in Scandanavia and Holland than in the EPL. The reality of the situation, however, is that Scandanavian leagues are best used as alterantives to MLS. Charlie Davies and Bedoya both went went straight from BC to Sweden. Marcus Tracy from Wake Forest to Denmark. It also works when guys spend a few years in MLS and then, out of contract, move on a free or, out of favor, make a cheap move to the Championship (see Robbie Findley who has actually been decent this year for Nottingham Forrest). The problem with that approach is that MLS operates as a business, not as a developmental academy. As a result, the top tier of young prospects in MLS will be sold for the most money they can net which isn't coming from the Championship, Scandanavia or Holland (see Jozy and his $10M price tag to Villareal). Agudelo ultimately has little say over where he goes. NYRB holds his rights and if Agudelo improves like expected, NYRB will sell him to a big club because that's where they will get the most return. The best situation for all involved with Agudelo is that he spends 2 or 3 more years in MLS, maturing on and off the field, and is better equipped to succeed when he moves to Europe than Jozy was right off the bat. Finally, I will say that our view toward European transfers as American soccer fans are ultimately shaped by three players: Donovan, Freddy Adu, and Jozy all of whom made the move before they were ready to handle the on the field training or the pressure of living in a foreign country. We don't talk about the Dempseys and Holdens of the world that had a couple years service in MLS and developed their games prior to making impact moves abroad. Thus, based on history, the best thing that can happen for Aguedlo is that he spend a couple more years in MLS before he makes his move to Europe. I did say instead of Scandinavia. I understand that those northern European leagues are being used instead of MLS at the moment. I'd much rather see our players go to Holland, Belgium, Turkey or something like that. MLS will probably evolve away from its current structure once the teams are securely self-sustaining. At the moment, they're not, but they're getting there. Garber doesn't want a have and have nots situation so they are holding the big boys back a bit until the rest of the league is on solid footing. With all the stadiums and well chosen expansion markets (though how St. Louis doesn't have a team I have no idea), MLS is doing the right things. I don't think there's a stigma with Europe like you say though. Sure there have been a few busts, but everyone wants American players playing in the best leagues. Trial by fire. Donovan turned out ok and even had a strong loan spell at Everton. Even in Jozy's case, he was bought by the big club and loaned out to more appropriate levels. Just because he couldn't hack it in England or Turkey doesn't mean they weren't good moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 QUOTE (danman31 @ Aug 24, 2011 -> 01:41 PM) I did say instead of Scandinavia. I understand that those northern European leagues are being used instead of MLS at the moment. I'd much rather see our players go to Holland, Belgium, Turkey or something like that. MLS will probably evolve away from its current structure once the teams are securely self-sustaining. At the moment, they're not, but they're getting there. Garber doesn't want a have and have nots situation so they are holding the big boys back a bit until the rest of the league is on solid footing. With all the stadiums and well chosen expansion markets (though how St. Louis doesn't have a team I have no idea), MLS is doing the right things. I don't think there's a stigma with Europe like you say though. Sure there have been a few busts, but everyone wants American players playing in the best leagues. Trial by fire. Donovan turned out ok and even had a strong loan spell at Everton. Even in Jozy's case, he was bought by the big club and loaned out to more appropriate levels. Just because he couldn't hack it in England or Turkey doesn't mean they weren't good moves. I agree with you to a point. There is not a stigma to Europe generally. There is, however, a stigma to big European move for young players. Message boards and, even professional soccer writers, warn of young players becoming "the next Jozy" and hope that Agudelo or Brek Shea will be wise and make a small move first (of course, those arguments fail to take into account the fact that Jozy is only 22 and has obviously improved the non-finishing aspect of his game in his time in Europe - the only truly wasted time was his non-sensical loan to Xerez (sp)). From a developmental standpoint, that argument is correct. Young, talented players on good clubs can get stuck in the dreaded "loan cycle" (see Jozy and Lichaj - as an unrelated aside, I wish Leeds had purchased Lichaj's contract - he needs games other than Cup matches) because those clubs don't have the patience to wait and they have the money to buy replacements. From a reality standpoint, however, that argument just doesn't matter. Brek Shea and Juan Agudelo will be sold to the clubs that are willing to pay their club the most money for them, regardless of where they will develop best (especially Shea since he is under a 4 year deal at Dallas right now). If we want to discuss the viability and success of MLS, now that's an argument where we are absolutely on the same page. Garber has done an excellent job with MLS. He has expanded to the right places (though I agree with you that St. Louis deserves a team before NY gets a second). The Seattle-Portland rivalry is just what the league needs. Even the most recent TV contract was a savvy move. My point in all of this might be that I'm arguing semantics with you. Your argument is correct - especially for players like Dempsey, Holden or George John who are good enough to succeed in Europe but didn't command $10M transfer fees (Holden moved on a free IIRC and Dempsey was in the $2M range). But we may wish for a Dutch or Turkish club to buy Agudelo. If he reaches his potential in MLS, that just isn't going to happen. He'll end up at Atletico Madrid or another big club in a Big 4 league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Aug 25, 2011 -> 10:52 AM) If we want to discuss the viability and success of MLS, now that's an argument where we are absolutely on the same page. Garber has done an excellent job with MLS. He has expanded to the right places (though I agree with you that St. Louis deserves a team before NY gets a second). The Seattle-Portland rivalry is just what the league needs. Even the most recent TV contract was a savvy move. My point in all of this might be that I'm arguing semantics with you. Your argument is correct - especially for players like Dempsey, Holden or George John who are good enough to succeed in Europe but didn't command $10M transfer fees (Holden moved on a free IIRC and Dempsey was in the $2M range). But we may wish for a Dutch or Turkish club to buy Agudelo. If he reaches his potential in MLS, that just isn't going to happen. He'll end up at Atletico Madrid or another big club in a Big 4 league. St. Louis needs an MLS team badly. It's arguably the biggest soccer market in the country. Throw in the potential KC rivalry, with their kickass new stadium and all, and it's a no brainer. I do think the Cosmos brand has notable value for the league. Maybe Chivas will move to St. Louis. If I ruled the world at least. I don't want to see more than 20 teams in the league. We're on the same page with transfers, but I don't mind the move to big clubs first because it gives the player more exposure and they can always wind up loaned to a proper level. It's more ideal to be directly bought by the second tier club, but I don't think it's that much of a deal breaker for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Jozy scored twice again today in Europa League play. 5 goals in all competitions through 5 games at AZ Alkamaar (4 in his 2 starts). He is on fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) Roster posted for the Costa Rica and Belgium friendlies: Goalkeepers: Tim Howard, Bill Hamid Defenders: Carlos Bocanegra, Edgar Castillo, Timmy Chandler, Steve Cherundolo, Clarence Goodson, Zach Loyd, Michael Orozsco Fiscal, Heath Pearce, Tim Ream Midfielders: Kyle Beckerman, Clint Dempsey, Maurice Edu, Fabian Johnson, Sacha Kljestan, Jeff Larentowicz, Robbie Rogers, Brek Shea, Jose Torres Forwards: Teal Bunbury, Jozy Altidore, Juan Agudelo, Landon Donovan Disappointed at some of the names not there. Would have liked to see Adu again most of all but also Davies, Diskerud and Josh Gatt would have been nice. Also too bad Lichaj isn't here. Bradley not being there is fine, I don't think anyone will be looking in to it at all. I'm guessing he's keeping him off so he can focus on getting his current club situation handled. I don't really think Beckerman or Larentowicz fit into long term plans so their inclusion is curious. And maybe it's just me but i'm sick of Kljestan in the USMNT lineups. I am excited to see Shea as well as Bunbury. And having Jozy (who's on fire right now) along with Agudelo will be interesting to see how they're used together (if at all). And pulling in Fabian Johnson is big as it appears he really will be switching national teams as previously rumored. Edited August 25, 2011 by ChiSox_Sonix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Does anyone know the rules about Chandler? If he plays in a friendly for USA can he not go back and eventually play for the German team, or is it only if its a real match? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 25, 2011 -> 04:50 PM) Does anyone know the rules about Chandler? If he plays in a friendly for USA can he not go back and eventually play for the German team, or is it only if its a real match? It has to be a sanctioned match, so Gold Cup, WCQ, Confed Cup or World Cup would qualify him for the US. Or conversely any Euro match or qualifier would tie to him Germany. Friendlies do not tie the player to the national side. They are still allowed one change. See Jermaine Jones for example Edited August 25, 2011 by ChiSox_Sonix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 So the last 2 games have largely been unwatchable from the US. Just awful stuff outside of maybe 25 minutes against Costa Rica. Brutal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.