Bears versus Packers game thread

[iamshack]

Right now you are saying it is a giant cover-up by anyone on the sidelines who is reporting anything as well as by Bear coaches and players. I don't buy it. You can't keep that type of stuff quiet and there are reporters who would take that information and use it to make a name for themselves anyway.

No, I am certainly not. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

I'm saying Jay was standing on the sidelines for almost the entirety of the half by himself. This is backed up by photographs and video. There might have been one brief moment in time wherein he actually could be bothered enough to speak to Caleb Hanie.

 

What do you expect Hanie to say, honestly? "No, the guy didn't want to help me, he was too pissed off that he played like garbage and had a knee injury."

 

I mean who in their right mind would do that?

 

Then you've got the sideline reporters who know Jay well, they work with him 180 days a year. They have become acquaintances with him and want to see him succeed and do well. Do you really think they are going to come out and say "Well, actually, those reports are incorrect. Jay maybe talked to Caleb for two minutes the entire half."

 

Why would they do something like that? They probably would never get another interview from a Bears player again. They would be blackballed from getting anything of value by many players on the team.

 

I'm not saying anyone is lying, just that it would take a LOT of cajones to contradict the organization's version of things.

 

You guys are going to criticize me for asking questions, accusing me of saying this is a "giant cover-up," and yet you guys are making the EXACT same claim of the Fox production team, accusing them of some vast conspiracy to make Jay look like a quitter and a loser.

 

Give me a break.

 

I'm going to look at everything I saw and the entire picture of events and not just believe anything that comes out of the organization or the players' mouths. If you can't recognize that this is a huge PR issue right now, I just don't know if there is a reason to continue the debate.

[BigSqwert]

Really?

 

So everyone at the game saw everything else that was going down on the sideline? Including HEARING things?

 

Where was Barkley, a sky box?

You're right. There is no way someone at the game could notice that Cutler was not near Hanie very often.

[IlliniKrush]

I'm going to look at everything I saw and the entire picture of events and not just believe anything that comes out of the organization or the players' mouths. If you can't recognize that this is a huge PR issue right now, I just don't know if there is a reason to continue the debate.

There's the issue. Problem is you didn't see most of it. None of us did. You weren't down there. Instead, you are disagreeing with reported facts, and calling it a cover up, which is what you hope happened, but have no proof.

[BigSqwert]

There's the issue. Problem is you didn't see most of it. None of us did. You weren't down there. Instead, you are disagreeing with reported facts, and calling it a cover up, which is what you hope happened, but have no proof.

You're also cherry picking facts that help your case. Why discount the perspective of someone that was actually at the game?

[StrangeSox]

You're also cherry picking facts that help your case. Why discount the perspective of someone that was actually at the game?

 

Because Barkley wasn't on the sideline and didn't have the access that others who contradict what he's saying did? He even references "shots" of Cutler on the sideline, indicating that he wasn't looking at him from long periods of time from wherever he was sitting.

 

edit: But none of that has any effect on why Cutler wasn't playing football any more.

Edited January 25, 2011 by StrangeSox

[iamshack]

There's the issue. Problem is you didn't see most of it. None of us did. You weren't down there. Instead, you are disagreeing with reported facts, and calling it a cover up, which is what you hope happened, but have no proof.

Ok, you're right man. I didn't see constant shots of the guy standing by himself sulking. Every time Jay stopped teaching Hanie how to dissect the Packers' defense, the producer yelled out "Go to camera 5!" because he wanted to catch Jay doing nothing again. There is a vast conspiracy by Fox Sports to make Jay appear as though he quit on the Bears. In fact, I bet that video they were showing was taken from a preseason game earlier this season when Jay was on the bench, and then they changed the background to make it appear as though he was on the bench milling around during the game Sunday!

 

 

[IlliniKrush]

You're also cherry picking facts that help your case. Why discount the perspective of someone that was actually at the game?

So using facts is cherry picking?

 

I didn't discount the perspective of someone at the game. I used the perspective of media that were as close to the situation as possible.

 

What's your feeling - pissed you don't think he helped when he did, or that he actually quit and wasn't injured?

 

It's 2 different arguments.

 

 

[MexSoxFan#1]

This is becoming Cutlergate, did he or didn't he?

[IlliniKrush]

Ok, you're right man. I didn't see constant shots of the guy standing by himself sulking. Every time Jay stopped teaching Hanie how to dissect the Packers' defense, the producer yelled out "Go to camera 5!" because he wanted to catch Jay doing nothing again. There is a vast conspiracy by Fox Sports to make Jay appear as though he quit on the Bears. In fact, I bet that video they were showing was taken from a preseason game earlier this season when Jay was on the bench, and then they changed the background to make it appear as though he was on the bench milling around during the game Sunday!

You forgot the green

[BigSqwert]

So using facts is cherry picking?

 

I didn't discount the perspective of someone at the game. I used the perspective of media that were as close to the situation as possible.

 

What's your feeling - pissed you don't think he helped when he did, or that he actually quit and wasn't injured?

 

It's 2 different arguments.

I have no horse in this so I'm not pissed at Cutler. I thought it was pretty well known here that I'm not a Bears fan.

[StrangeSox]

Ok, you're right man. I didn't see constant shots of the guy standing by himself sulking. Every time Jay stopped teaching Hanie how to dissect the Packers' defense, the producer yelled out "Go to camera 5!" because he wanted to catch Jay doing nothing again. There is a vast conspiracy by Fox Sports to make Jay appear as though he quit on the Bears. In fact, I bet that video they were showing was taken from a preseason game earlier this season when Jay was on the bench, and then they changed the background to make it appear as though he was on the bench milling around during the game Sunday!

 

The media produces and presents the narratives they want. "Good Jay/Bad Jay" is one. As the broadcast was going on, "Jay is a quitter" developed.

 

But, ironically, you're dismissing that as conspiracy while buying into a much bigger one--a cover up by the medical staff, coaches, all other players including Hanie, management, and various sideline reporters.

[MexSoxFan#1]

Ok, you're right man. I didn't see constant shots of the guy standing by himself sulking. Every time Jay stopped teaching Hanie how to dissect the Packers' defense, the producer yelled out "Go to camera 5!" because he wanted to catch Jay doing nothing again. There is a vast conspiracy by Fox Sports to make Jay appear as though he quit on the Bears. In fact, I bet that video they were showing was taken from a preseason game earlier this season when Jay was on the bench, and then they changed the background to make it appear as though he was on the bench milling around during the game Sunday!

 

I really don't know how much he could teach Hanie, Jay's been pretty horrible vs the Packers D all season long.

[Chisoxfn]

Ok, you're right man. I didn't see constant shots of the guy standing by himself sulking. Every time Jay stopped teaching Hanie how to dissect the Packers' defense, the producer yelled out "Go to camera 5!" because he wanted to catch Jay doing nothing again. There is a vast conspiracy by Fox Sports to make Jay appear as though he quit on the Bears. In fact, I bet that video they were showing was taken from a preseason game earlier this season when Jay was on the bench, and then they changed the background to make it appear as though he was on the bench milling around during the game Sunday!

A lot of the shots happened when Hanie was on offense though. Obviously in those situations Cutler won't be there. There was one shot where CUtler was right next to Hanie on the bench chatting with him. How about the shot of Cutler smiling when Hanie successfully led a TD drive.

 

You have this massive conspiracy. You say sideline reporters like him and have a relationship with him, most of the reporters don't like him, even guys in Chicago. They've grown to realize he is what he is, but they aren't buddy buddy with him. You might have one guy go out and say this is what happened, but for every reporter that was on the sideline to all say the same thing, well, I'd say that is REAL evidence.

 

And Barkely, he just said he'd be there 24/7. Maybe Cutler wasn't there 24/7, but the reality is as long as he has that headset in and is listening to plays and when the situation calls for it he is around him, than that is fine. And from everyone's conversations that has been the case. And I don't buy for one second that players (if they had a problem with Jay) wouldn't publicly state he quit. If a player seriously has problems, his teammates will call him out for it.

[iamshack]

The media produces and presents the narratives they want. "Good Jay/Bad Jay" is one. As the broadcast was going on, "Jay is a quitter" developed.

 

But, ironically, you're dismissing that as conspiracy while buying into a much bigger one--a cover up by the medical staff, coaches, all other players including Hanie, management, and various sideline reporters.

I was waiting for this.

 

I understand the media presents a game as "theater" and will often play up the drama, etc. But they had the guy on film, almost the entire half, doing nothing. I mean, it's not like this was just one point in time where this occurred. This was immediately after he came out. This was while Collins was in. This was while Hanie was in. This was while the Bears were coming back. This was several times when the Bears defense was in. Seriously, there is just tons and tons and tons of actual live video that was shot, photos that were shot. They just could not have tried to play that angle up (and yes, they certainly played that angle up) unless Jay was complying! And he did! For almost the entire second half! But I am to believe that this was done to fool the Packers into thinking he was going to come back?

 

As for what I was arguing, I did not say there was a cover-up by the medical staff, ever. So stop trying to make that point. As for the rest of them, we have had several reporters now say that the Bears should have reacted to cover this all up much earlier than they did! That the Bears attempt to handle this thing was actually far too slow. Are we really so naive that we don't think players cover other players' asses? That coaches don't?

 

And really, I am not asking anyone to believe what I believe. What you guys are doing is telling me that I can't believe it. That I can't debate it. Someone actually said the situation is not debatable.

[iamshack]

A lot of the shots happened when Hanie was on offense though. Obviously in those situations Cutler won't be there. There was one shot where CUtler was right next to Hanie on the bench chatting with him. How about the shot of Cutler smiling when Hanie successfully led a TD drive.

 

You have this massive conspiracy. You say sideline reporters like him and have a relationship with him, most of the reporters don't like him, even guys in Chicago. They've grown to realize he is what he is, but they aren't buddy buddy with him. You might have one guy go out and say this is what happened, but for every reporter that was on the sideline to all say the same thing, well, I'd say that is REAL evidence.

 

And Barkely, he just said he'd be there 24/7. Maybe Cutler wasn't there 24/7, but the reality is as long as he has that headset in and is listening to plays and when the situation calls for it he is around him, than that is fine. And from everyone's conversations that has been the case. And I don't buy for one second that players (if they had a problem with Jay) wouldn't publicly state he quit. If a player seriously has problems, his teammates will call him out for it.

 

Well, I respect your opinion and I'm not asking you to buy anything.

 

All I'm asking is that you do the same for me.

[NorthSideSox72]

Its amazing to me there is this much silliness over this situation. Cutler got hurt, the docs/coaches kept him out, it was a 2nd degree sprain (which is a tear) that would have some effect on his play (but we don't know precisely how much). Now you've got idiots out there in the twitterverse saying he's a p**** or whatever other moronic things come from small brains, and others saying that subjective topics are somehow "facts", blah blah blah.

 

What's important here is that Cutler played like s*** the first half, and has consitently played like s*** against the Pack. That's the concern for next season. The rest of this is just noise that the entire Bears team now has to live down next season.

 

[IlliniKrush]

Again, you are making stuff up and ignoring facts.

 

Now, it's the players that are completely covering it up. They're all liars, and they were damn good at being angry about it, too. To a man.

 

This is the biggest cover up in the history of sports, even though he came out with an injury, which is a fact. He went and played in the 2nd half despite the rec of doctors and trainers, and couldn't do it well enough.

 

Then he didn't help, even though it's documented he did.

 

This is awesome.

[LittleHurt05]

Jason Whitlock is trying to take the meatball side vs. B & B....

[BigSqwert]

So now name calling is ok in this thread. Got it.

[iamshack]

Again, you are making stuff up and ignoring facts.

 

Now, it's the players that are completely covering it up. They're all liars, and they were damn good at being angry about it, too. To a man.

 

This is the biggest cover up in the history of sports, even though he came out with an injury, which is a fact. He went and played in the 2nd half despite the rec of doctors and trainers, and couldn't do it well enough.

 

Then he didn't help, even though it's documented he did.

 

This is awesome.

And you keep believing everything the organization tells you. As if they had a choice to say anything else.

[StrangeSox]

I was waiting for this.

 

I understand the media presents a game as "theater" and will often play up the drama, etc. But they had the guy on film, almost the entire half, doing nothing. I mean, it's not like this was just one point in time where this occurred. This was immediately after he came out. This was while Collins was in. This was while Hanie was in. This was while the Bears were coming back. This was several times when the Bears defense was in. Seriously, there is just tons and tons and tons of actual live video that was shot, photos that were shot. They just could not have tried to play that angle up (and yes, they certainly played that angle up) unless Jay was complying! And he did! For almost the entire second half! But I am to believe that this was done to fool the Packers into thinking he was going to come back?

 

Here's the problem: you don't know this. You don't know that they had him on film, almost the entire half, doing nothing. That's just a blind assertion by you. What you know is that for about a total of a minute in the second half (however long they had Jay on camera), he wasn't always sitting with Hanie or going over plays. But sometimes he was talking to Hanie, cheering him on, in those brief snippets we do have. So it kinda blows your whole theory.

 

As far as it being a giant conspiracy, even after the official "Grade II MCL" report came out, you were still questioning the severity of the injury, even though we knew exactly how severe it was, by definition of "Grade II MCL Sprain". You still ask "why was he walking around without braces and ice?" The only implication there that I can see is that you don't believe he really has a Grade II MCL Sprain.

 

The reporters and some in the media (like B&B) have been saying that the Bears should have handled it differently and made the severity of Jay's injury clear as soon as possible to avert all this nonsense and to avoid tarnishing the reputation of their star QB. They're not advocating that the Bears should have lied about his injury, in fact they're doing just the opposite. They're chastising Lovie and Co. for playing their stupid mind games and letting this get out of hand.

[Balta1701]

And you keep believing everything the organization tells you. As if they had a choice to say anything else.

You don't think there'd be a few people who threw Jay under the bus, at least in the anonymous quote sense, if they thought he really had given up on them?

[StrangeSox]

And you keep believing everything the organization tells you. As if they had a choice to say anything else.

 

How long did it take for it to leak that Benson pulled himself in the SB? How many players were adamantly defending him after the game?

[fathom]

Here's the problem: you don't know this. You don't know that they had him on film, almost the entire half, doing nothing. That's just a blind assertion by you. What you know is that for about a total of a minute in the second half (however long they had Jay on camera), he wasn't always sitting with Hanie or going over plays. But sometimes he was talking to Hanie, cheering him on, in those brief snippets we do have. So it kinda blows your whole theory.

 

As far as it being a giant conspiracy, even after the official "Grade II MCL" report came out, you were still questioning the severity of the injury, even though we knew exactly how severe it was, by definition of "Grade II MCL Sprain". You still ask "why was he walking around without braces and ice?" The only implication there that I can see is that you don't believe he really has a Grade II MCL Sprain.

 

The reporters and some in the media (like B&B) have been saying that the Bears should have handled it differently and made the severity of Jay's injury clear as soon as possible to avert all this nonsense and to avoid tarnishing the reputation of their star QB. They're not advocating that the Bears should have lied about his injury, in fact they're doing just the opposite. They're chastising Lovie and Co. for playing their stupid mind games and letting this get out of hand.

 

I still question what in the living hell were the Bears trainers doing by not putting him on crutches or in a brace? Say the Bears win, wouldn't you want to limit any further damage that could have been done walking on the sideline or shaking hands with the Packers players after the game in order to get him ready for the Super Bowl?

[StrangeSox]

You don't think there'd be a few people who threw Jay under the bus, at least in the anonymous quote sense, if they thought he really had given up on them?

 

There's also a difference between repeating the company line and being evasive or vague and the anger that the Bears players are reacting with.