U.S. launches airstrikes on Libya

[southsider2k5]

Again, I agree that seems logical. But quite frankly, I think the US is no good at it. Let Europe take a crack at it this time.

 

If we are going to talk about histories of nation building, I don't think Europe exactly has a stellar track record looking at things like the Middle East and Africa, not to mention the EU about to collapse under its own weight.

[NorthSideSox72]

If we are going to talk about histories of nation building, I don't think Europe exactly has a stellar track record looking at things like the Middle East and Africa, not to mention the EU about to collapse under its own weight.

Europe's track record is from way, way back. And if we want to go that far back, the US did a reasonably decent job making sure Japan got back on its feet, and Europe did the same for West Germany after some tough years. But recently, the US has failed miserably, and Europe hasn't really given it a shot. They can't do much worse.

 

You do make a good point though, that financially, this is not a good time for them to be jumping into such a thing.

 

[southsider2k5]

Europe's track record is from way, way back. And if we want to go that far back, the US did a reasonably decent job making sure Japan got back on its feet, and Europe did the same for West Germany after some tough years. But recently, the US has failed miserably, and Europe hasn't really given it a shot. They can't do much worse.

 

You do make a good point though, that financially, this is not a good time for them to be jumping into such a thing.

 

The US also really put Europe back together again after WWII.

[Balta1701]

So if the regime falls (I guess it will sooner rather than later)... then what? The last time we asked that question after a round or three of triumphant chest-beating it became clear nobody had a clue what the f*** to do and the s*** hit the fan and kept flying. Not really keen on having that happen again.

The fact that there is now an uprising in Tripoli is probably the best thing that could happen to the country. A week ago, it seemed like there was a good chance that a Western-Libya based revolutionary council would wind up taking control over Tripoli. Now, there are revolutionary groups in Tripoli that have the standing to join an actual transitional government.

 

If there's a governmental worry now, I think it's that the Islamist parties will wind up successfully gaining a lot of strength.

 

[Soxbadger]

Hopefully because this will be seen more as a "revolution" than "outside interference" there wont be as many transition problems. Every nation has to start somewhere, I just hope for the best in Libya. Although it wont be over until they get Gaddafi.

[southsider2k5]

WTF?

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationw...0,6893193.story

[GoSox05]

WTF?

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationw...0,6893193.story

 

Those guys are touching that book without gloves. Which could be dangerous.

[Soxbadger]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/libya-re...-153037850.html

 

That cant be good news for US-Libyan relations.

[Balta1701]

Don't worry, the Libyans returned the favor.

Documents found at the abandoned office of Libya’s former spymaster appear to provide new details of the close relations the Central Intelligence Agency shared with the Libyan intelligence service — most notably suggesting that the Americans sent terrorism suspects at least eight times for questioning in Libya despite that country’s reputation for torture.

 

Although it has been known that Western intelligence services began cooperating with Libya after it abandoned its program to build unconventional weapons in 2004, the files left behind as Tripoli fell to rebels show that the cooperation was much more extensive than generally known with both the C.I.A. and its British equivalent, MI-6.

 

Some documents indicate that the British agency was even willing to trace phone numbers for the Libyans, and another appears to be a proposed speech written by the Americans for Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi about renouncing unconventional weapons.

 

The documents were discovered Friday by journalists and Human Rights Watch. There were at least three binders of English-language documents, one marked C.I.A. and the other two marked MI-6, among a larger stash of documents in Arabic.

 

It was impossible to verify their authenticity, and none of them were written on letterhead. But the binders included some documents that made specific reference to the C.I.A., and their details seem consistent with what is known about the transfer of terrorism suspects abroad for interrogation and with other agency practices.

 

And although the scope of prisoner transfers to Libya has not been made public, news media reports have sometimes mentioned it as one country that the United States used as part of its much criticized rendition program for terrorism suspects.

 

A C.I.A. spokeswoman, Jennifer Youngblood, declined to comment on Friday on the documents. But she added: “It can’t come as a surprise that the Central Intelligence Agency works with foreign governments to help protect our country from terrorism and other deadly threats.”

[kapkomet]

It's Dick Cheney's fault. Blame Dick.

[Balta1701]

This ought to make the world a much more interesting place.

A potent stash of Russian-made surface-to-air missiles is missing from a huge Tripoli weapons warehouse amid reports of weapons looting across war-torn Libya.

 

They are Grinch SA-24 shoulder-launched missiles, the equivalent of U.S.-made Stinger missiles. They are designed to target front-line aircraft, helicopters, cruise missiles and drones. They can shoot down a plane flying as high as 11,000 feet and can travel 19,000 feet straight out.

 

Fighters aligned with the National Transitional Council and others swiped armaments from the storage facility, witnesses told Human Rights Watch. The warehouse is located near a base of the Khamis Brigade, a special forces unit in Gadhafi's military, in the southeastern part of the capital.

There were something like 20k total shoudler fired SAM's in Libya's arsenal before the civil war, although not all of them were the up to date model like these were.

[southsider2k5]

Story this morning is that Khadafi has been injured and captured.

[southsider2k5]

Story this morning is that Khadafi has been injured and captured.

 

Now being reported that he "died of wounds in his capture".

[NorthSideSox72]

Yeah, the way the story I saw was written, it said he was killed shortly AFTER his capture. Interesting. But it also seems that no one really knows for sure how it went down.

 

[Balta1701]

So...Reagan's nemesis from the Middle East...gone.

 

W's nemesis from the Middle East...gone.

 

Clinton have a leftover Middle Eastern nemesis that the Obama administration can remove?

[bmags]

somalia? We do have a fight against hte LRA right now

[Harry Chappas]

So...Reagan's nemesis from the Middle East...gone.

 

W's nemesis from the Middle East...gone.

 

Clinton have a leftover Middle Eastern nemesis that the Obama administration can remove?

 

Clinton, go even the score for JFK!!!!!!!!

[RockRaines]

I guess lets clear out Cuba?

[Soxbadger]

Now its up to the people of Libya.

[The Sir]

I'm oddly surprised at the reaction of this board.

 

Judging from the video seen here, it looks like Gaddafi was captured alive, beaten severely and summarily executed in the street.

 

I don't feel sorry for him, not that that's going to shock anyone. I watched the video and it almost gained my sympathies, and then I remembered that 270 people were blown to bits over (and in some cases, in), Lodkerbie 23 years ago. And of course, many more Libyans were done away with in equally cruel ways. So frankly, I'd say he earned his fate. Just like Saddam.

 

I did, however, expect a bit more outrage at this sort of thing from this place. Not that I'm whining though...just oddly intrigued by this.

 

Also, as for it being in the hands of the Libyan people, Libyan is heading down the road of Islamism. I won't miss Qaddafi, but I'm certain that those who replace him won't be much different. As I see it, today, one maggot was murdered by a bunch of other maggots.

 

Just my two cents.

[Soxbadger]

I dont agree with street justice, but from the videos its hard to determine what exactly happened. Its possible that Gaddafi died die to injuries suffered prior to capture, who knows.

 

As for going down the road to Islam if thats what the people of Libya want, who am I to stop them. When people are free, they have the right to make their own decisions about their govt.

[The Sir]

As for going down the road to Islam if thats what the people of Libya want, who am I to stop them. When people are free, they have the right to make their own decisions about their govt.

 

I agree with you. That doesn't mean I think Islamism is a good thing, and I don't really feel we needed to help Libya get there. As for making choices about their government, if radical Islam is the chosen path, that concept isn't going to last long in this new Libya.

[Soxbadger]

I dont know what will happen. I think that many people in Libya will remember that when Gaddafi was marching on Misrata, it was the planes from the Great Satan who stopped Gaddafi. Not Iran, not Saudia Arabia, not any Islamic nation.

 

I hope for the best because I believe that all people want similar things.

 

I guess no matter what I just hope they have a better life, that is why I supported the US involvement.

[Milkman delivers]

I dont agree with street justice, but from the videos its hard to determine what exactly happened. Its possible that Gaddafi died die to injuries suffered prior to capture, who knows.

 

As for going down the road to Islam if thats what the people of Libya want, who am I to stop them. When people are free, they have the right to make their own decisions about their govt.

 

That's the best kind of justice, and it's certainly the most dependable.

[The Sir]

I hope for the best because I believe that all people want similar things.

 

It's nice that you're optimistic, however I prefer to be realistic. And the truth is, there have been many leaders ushered (and even elected) into power with high hopes only to turn into complete horror stories. Adolf Hitler, Idi Amin and Pol Pot (OK, maybe that last one only got Noam Chomsky excited) come to mind. And when a new leadership group starts by murdering the predecessor in a brutal fashion, I don't get too hopeful (see: Samuel Doe, Liberian leader who supposedly disemboweled the former leader in his sleep).

 

I guess no matter what I just hope they have a better life, that is why I supported the US involvement.

 

I hope they have a better life, too. They won't find it under radical Islam. And while I may be wrong about that being where this is going, I feel my suspicions are justified, and I just wish we had done our homework to know exactly who we were supporting before we jumped in with both feet. It's not nice hearing the leaders of the Libyan revolution admit that their fighters have Al Qaeda ties.

 

Furthermore, did you say the same thing about the Iraqis in 2003? Did you support their right to have better lives, free of Saddam? And expanding on that...why not go and liberate every country? The Burmese have pretty crappy lives thanks to Than Shwe and friends. Or Cuba, or Iran, or Syria, or Zimbabwe. Et cetera. It's not our job to provide awesome lives for these people. We should promote peace and democracy in the world, but militaristic force should be reserved to the protection of our interests and the elimination of our direct enemies.