Undocumented worker who became quadriplegic is moved to Mexico against

[soxfan2504]

After reading this article, there were two things that immediately popped into my head:

 

First, the reason why so many illegal Mexicans come here:

 

Jobs, nothing else. Jobs. The jobs that the political establishment in Mexico has largely given up on drawing to their country. As a result of this hopeless point of view, from those who actually run Mexico, working class Mexicans gotta go somewhere that they can find work. And that place, unfortunately, is not in their home country; it's in the more prosperous neighbor to the north.

 

These illegals are not costing Americans jobs; it is the hopeless attitude of the Mexican government, that leaves its working class with no choice but to illegally border-hop, that is the problem. And yet we do nothing to fix it, because it helps the economy by keeping companies profitable that would not be able to do so if they paid fair wages to ACTUAL US CITIZENS.

 

Second:

Even if you leave out the issue of the quality of medical care, the question is; where the hell does this guy have a chance at something resembling a normal life? It sure as hell isn't Mexico, and certainly not in one its poorer states. Chances are very high that this guy will not recover to the point where he may even be able to drive, even with modifications such as hand controls.

 

So that leaves him with the options of rolling around town in his power chair on the sidewalks, and taking public transportation. Well, except there's one problem...........

 

If you think there are a good number of curb ramps (think of what you see at street corners all over the U.S.), and accessible buses with working lifts or ramps in Oaxaca, or any part of Mexico, for that matter, then I've got some oceanfront property to sell you in Kansas.

[Controlled Chaos]

After reading this article, there were two things that immediately popped into my head:

 

First, the reason why so many illegal Mexicans come here:

 

Jobs, nothing else. Jobs. The jobs that the political establishment in Mexico has largely given up on drawing to their country. As a result of this hopeless point of view, from those who actually run Mexico, working class Mexicans gotta go somewhere that they can find work. And that place, unfortunately, is not in their home country; it's in the more prosperous neighbor to the north.

 

These illegals are not costing Americans jobs; it is the hopeless attitude of the Mexican government, that leaves its working class with no choice but to illegally border-hop, that is the problem. And yet we do nothing to fix it, because it helps the economy by keeping companies profitable that would not be able to do so if they paid fair wages to ACTUAL US CITIZENS.

 

Second:

Even if you leave out the issue of the quality of medical care, the question is; where the hell does this guy have a chance at something resembling a normal life? It sure as hell isn't Mexico, and certainly not in one its poorer states. Chances are very high that this guy will not recover to the point where he may even be able to drive, even with modifications such as hand controls.

 

So that leaves him with the options of rolling around town in his power chair on the sidewalks, and taking public transportation. Well, except there's one problem...........

 

If you think there are a good number of curb ramps (think of what you see at street corners all over the U.S.), and accessible buses with working lifts or ramps in Oaxaca, or any part of Mexico, for that matter, then I've got some oceanfront property to sell you in Kansas.

I won't get into your first response. There's been plenty of threads on illegals if you want to dig em up and comment there.

 

To your second response...and with all due respect....how in the hell is it the hospital or this country's responsibility to make sure this person has a normal life?

It isn't. I would venture to guess this guy already received more money than the average tax paying American will use on medical care in a lifetime. I'm sorry about what happened to him and the answer is to go after the company that hired him, but in no way is it the taxpayers job to pay millions of dollars to advance his rehabilitation and improve his quality of life.

 

[Y2HH]

After reading this article, there were two things that immediately popped into my head:

 

First, the reason why so many illegal Mexicans come here:

 

Jobs, nothing else. Jobs. The jobs that the political establishment in Mexico has largely given up on drawing to their country. As a result of this hopeless point of view, from those who actually run Mexico, working class Mexicans gotta go somewhere that they can find work. And that place, unfortunately, is not in their home country; it's in the more prosperous neighbor to the north.

 

These illegals are not costing Americans jobs; it is the hopeless attitude of the Mexican government, that leaves its working class with no choice but to illegally border-hop, that is the problem. And yet we do nothing to fix it, because it helps the economy by keeping companies profitable that would not be able to do so if they paid fair wages to ACTUAL US CITIZENS.

 

Second:

Even if you leave out the issue of the quality of medical care, the question is; where the hell does this guy have a chance at something resembling a normal life? It sure as hell isn't Mexico, and certainly not in one its poorer states. Chances are very high that this guy will not recover to the point where he may even be able to drive, even with modifications such as hand controls.

 

So that leaves him with the options of rolling around town in his power chair on the sidewalks, and taking public transportation. Well, except there's one problem...........

 

If you think there are a good number of curb ramps (think of what you see at street corners all over the U.S.), and accessible buses with working lifts or ramps in Oaxaca, or any part of Mexico, for that matter, then I've got some oceanfront property to sell you in Kansas.

 

By that rational, I guess we should just take all the Africans, Mexicans, South Americans and everyone else from struggling countries, absorb them into the US and up it's current and already over-populated self from, what is it now, 300M?, to well over 3 Billion -- so everyone in our galaxy can have a "normal life".

 

I'm sure we have the jobs and money to support it.

 

My problem with your argument, and every argument like the one you've posed is when do we say when? Is it ok only for Mexicans because they happen to be a border country? And if that's the case, f*** all the struggling Africans and Chinese?! You have a line you're deciding to move around arbitrarily here due to "neighbor" status, but my question is valid -- where does it end? Unfortunately, we CANNOT just "accept everyone"...the money machine is already out of change...

 

It has nothing to do with fair.

[Texsox]

Just wondering, using the example of an American who decided to leave the US and move to another country. He becomes injured working there and needs a lifetime of care at considerable expense would you . . .

 

Say screw him, he left the US, it is his problem, he likes that country so much he should stay there

 

or

 

Since he is an American citizen he is our responsibility from cradle to grave and the US taxpayer should pay for his injuries and lifetime treatment.

[Balta1701]

Just wondering, using the example of an American who decided to leave the US and move to another country. He becomes injured working there and needs a lifetime of care at considerable expense would you . . .

 

Say screw him, he left the US, it is his problem, he likes that country so much he should stay there

 

or

 

Since he is an American citizen he is our responsibility from cradle to grave and the US taxpayer should pay for his injuries and lifetime treatment.

If the country he moved to were anywhere else in the developed world, that country (or at worst his government subsidized private insurance) would pay for his health care and it wouldn't be a question.

[Jenksismyhero]

Just wondering, using the example of an American who decided to leave the US and move to another country. He becomes injured working there and needs a lifetime of care at considerable expense would you . . .

 

Say screw him, he left the US, it is his problem, he likes that country so much he should stay there

 

or

 

Since he is an American citizen he is our responsibility from cradle to grave and the US taxpayer should pay for his injuries and lifetime treatment.

 

The key difference of course is that in one case you're talking about LEGAL citizens, and here we're talking about someone who broke the law, was saved by a gracious system, and is now complaining that the free handout of 650k in medical care paid for by the US is not enough.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Jenksismybitch

[Jenksismyhero]

If the country he moved to were anywhere else in the developed world, that country (or at worst his government subsidized private insurance) would pay for his health care and it wouldn't be a question.

 

Yep, cuz the American system clearly failed him. If only our doctors and hospitals had hearts and souls, they would have provided him at least SOME medical treatment. Instead, this crappy system we have kicked him to the curb to die soon after his accident.

[Controlled Chaos]

Just wondering, using the example of an American who decided to leave the US and move to another country. He becomes injured working there and needs a lifetime of care at considerable expense would you . . .

 

Say screw him, he left the US, it is his problem, he likes that country so much he should stay there

 

or

 

Since he is an American citizen he is our responsibility from cradle to grave and the US taxpayer should pay for his injuries and lifetime treatment.

Too many variables to really answer your question...

 

Better example would be a US citizen vacation in another country when the injury occurs. Would the vacationing country pay for the lifelong care of a US citizen if they wished to remain there or would they be sent home?

[Balta1701]

Yep, cuz the American system clearly failed him. If only our doctors and hospitals had hearts and souls, they would have provided him at least SOME medical treatment. Instead, this crappy system we have kicked him to the curb to die soon after his accident.

Please note the difference in the scenario Tex described to the scenario in this case; in the case Tex described, the person who had moved overseas had clearly established residency.

 

If you're working anywhere else in the Western World and you suffer a debilitating injury, their health care system will take care of you.

 

In the case of an illegal immigrant, they might be treated much as they are here. For emergency care, all that is typically required is a date of birth or something like that; they will treat you regardless. For admission and long-term care, they would go through the state-run insurance provider. Whether a hospital could specifically on their own deport a patient without going through the authorities, I doubt they could but I could be proven wrong on that issue.

[Balta1701]

Better example would be a US citizen vacation in another country when the injury occurs. Would the vacationing country pay for the lifelong care of a US citizen if they wished to remain there or would they be sent home?

In that case, the victim of the injury would have to do something to establish residency (which typically takes on the order of a few months to "officially" qualify.) If you were there for 2 days, got hurt, and decided you wanted to stay in that country, then you'd probably have to file an official request with the government to be granted a visa.

[Y2HH]

In that case, the victim of the injury would have to do something to establish residency (which typically takes on the order of a few months to "officially" qualify.) If you were there for 2 days, got hurt, and decided you wanted to stay in that country, then you'd probably have to file an official request with the government to be granted a visa.

 

Keep in mind you can't just decide to go to these countries and "establish residency" that easily. Try moving to these places, "just because", and see what they say. They'll tell you to go f*** yourself. These other countries do have rules and regulations to follow in order to go there -- and stay there -- legally.

 

The problem here is we aren't talking about "legal" anything.

[Jenksismyhero]

Please note the difference in the scenario Tex described to the scenario in this case; in the case Tex described, the person who had moved overseas had clearly established residency.

 

If you're working anywhere else in the Western World and you suffer a debilitating injury, their health care system will take care of you.

 

In the case of an illegal immigrant, they might be treated much as they are here. For emergency care, all that is typically required is a date of birth or something like that; they will treat you regardless. For admission and long-term care, they would go through the state-run insurance provider. Whether a hospital could specifically on their own deport a patient without going through the authorities, I doubt they could but I could be proven wrong on that issue.

 

I guess I just don't see this as him being deported. He was sent back to his home after the hospital provided all the care it could. They did so out of their own pocket. They could have kicked him off their property and said "good luck," but they didn't. They spent the time/energy/money of getting this guy home to his family, after searching for a facility to send him to. I'm just shocked that this guy, and others, would say that wasn't enough. The guy is lucky he hurt himself here or he'd be dead without any care. Instead he basically won the lotto and got enough medical attention to remain alive with the hope of a better future.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Jenksismybitch

[Texsox]

The key difference of course is that in one case you're talking about LEGAL citizens, and here we're talking about someone who broke the law, was saved by a gracious system, and is now complaining that the free handout of 650k in medical care paid for by the US is not enough.

 

I am talking about someone who was a criminal in Mexico. While committing a crime in Mexico he is badly injured. Mexico then claims it will cost them too much to take care of him so they send him back to the US for treatment and lifelong care.

 

Y'all would be fine with getting the criminal back because he is an American citizen and even though he was committing a crime in Mexico, the US taxpayer should pay for his lifelong treatment.

[Y2HH]

I am talking about someone who was a criminal in Mexico. While committing a crime in Mexico he is badly injured. Mexico then claims it will cost them too much to take care of him so they send him back to the US for treatment and lifelong care.

 

Y'all would be fine with getting the criminal back because he is an American citizen and even though he was committing a crime in Mexico, the US taxpayer should pay for his lifelong treatment.

 

What the hell is this, even?

 

This went from an actual discussion about an actual story to a complete hypothetical crap fest. That said, what kind of "crime" did he commit in Mexico? Did he steal a candy bar? Or did he rape someone? If it's the latter, I'd rather the person be thrown in the ocean to drown a miserable death, and then nobody has to take care of him ever again. If it's the former, yes, he should be returned to the country he belongs in, as I'm sure he feels bad for stealing that baby ruth for Sloth.

[Texsox]

What the hell is this, even?

 

This went from an actual discussion about an actual story to a complete hypothetical crap fest. That said, what kind of "crime" did he commit in Mexico? Did he steal a candy bar? Or did he rape someone? If it's the latter, I'd rather the person be thrown in the ocean to drown a miserable death, and then nobody has to take care of him ever again. If it's the former, yes, he should be returned to the country he belongs in, as I'm sure he feels bad for stealing that baby ruth for Sloth.

 

He was working there without his proper papers (FM3). Believe it or not, Mexico required workers to fill out a couple forms and pay a small fee to work in their country. And not quite so hypothetical because it happens in our Maquila operations every once in a while where an employee working in Mexico but on the US payroll is injured and winds up in a Mexico hospital. I've never heard of a case where the person was in need of nursing home care, but at least for smaller injuries, Mexico does not kick patients out.

 

I was just wondering how everyone would feel if the situation was in reverse. Another country shipping a criminal back so that the American taxpayer could pay the bill.

 

If you don't like the question, feel free to not respond.

[Y2HH]

He was working there without his proper papers (FM3). Believe it or not, Mexico required workers to fill out a couple forms and pay a small fee to work in their country. And not quite so hypothetical because it happens in our Maquila operations every once in a while where an employee working in Mexico but on the US payroll is injured and winds up in a Mexico hospital. I've never heard of a case where the person was in need of nursing home care, but at least for smaller injuries, Mexico does not kick patients out.

 

I was just wondering how everyone would feel if the situation was in reverse. Another country shipping a criminal back so that the American taxpayer could pay the bill.

 

If you don't like the question, feel free to not respond.

 

Again, we didn't "kick him out" without first treating him. Feel free to keep ignoring that for the sake of a bad argument.

 

And I think the country sending this criminal back is in the right in doing so, it's not as if we are talking about an upstanding citizen here.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Y2HH

[Texsox]

Again, we didn't "kick him out" without first treating him. Feel free to keep ignoring that for the sake of a bad argument.

 

And I think the country sending this criminal back is in the right in doing so, it's not as if we are talking about an upstanding citizen here.

 

Really, we didn't kick him out? I'm sorry then, I must have misread where the US Hospital send him back to Mexico. For some reason I thought the hospital tried to find other facilities to care for him, and after they could not find anyone else to care for him, they flew him to Mexico. I guess my posts sound pretty crazy thinking that removing someone from your place is "kicking them out". I am such a dummy.

 

I'm not ignoring the treatment at all. In fact I pointed out that he was treated in my first post. I'm not certain what argument you are finding here. I asked a simple question. What if Mexico cried they were too poor to treat a US citizen who was working in their country illegally, would we welcome that criminal back, after he was treated and stabilized?

[Controlled Chaos]

He was working there without his proper papers (FM3). Believe it or not, Mexico required workers to fill out a couple forms and pay a small fee to work in their country. And not quite so hypothetical because it happens in our Maquila operations every once in a while where an employee working in Mexico but on the US payroll is injured and winds up in a Mexico hospital. I've never heard of a case where the person was in need of nursing home care, but at least for smaller injuries, Mexico does not kick patients out.

 

I was just wondering how everyone would feel if the situation was in reverse. Another country shipping a criminal back so that the American taxpayer could pay the bill.

 

If you don't like the question, feel free to not respond.

Yes. In your example, he would be a tax paying US citizen and would be treated like any one else. I certainly wouldn't expect Mexico to support him for the rest of his life.

 

This whole thing seems pretty cut and dry. At least as far as common sense goes.

[Texsox]

Yes. In your example, he would be a tax paying US citizen and would be treated like any one else. I certainly wouldn't expect Mexico to support him for the rest of his life.

 

This whole thing seems pretty cut and dry. At least as far as common sense goes.

 

 

I agree with everything except tax paying. Depending on the Mexican company, he may be completely on a Mexico payroll and not paying US taxes. In fact, that is one reason a lot of Social Security checks and other pensions head to Mexico.

 

But yeah, it does seem like common sense until some criminal gets returned for millions of dollars in care.

[Y2HH]

I'm not ignoring the treatment at all. In fact I pointed out that he was treated in my first post. I'm not certain what argument you are finding here. I asked a simple question. What if Mexico cried they were too poor to treat a US citizen who was working in their country illegally, would we welcome that criminal back, after he was treated and stabilized?

 

Welcome them back? No. Expect them back? Absolutely.

[Texsox]

Welcome them back? No. Expect them back? Absolutely.

 

 

I agree, but it would seem weird getting back a citizen who may have left the country decades earlier and hasn't paid taxes all that time. My brother in law has been living in England and other countries for over 20 years. If England sent him here for a lifetime of care, it would seem weird, but he maintains his US citizenship and I guess that makes him US responsibility.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Controlled Chaos]

I agree, but it would seem weird getting back a citizen who may have left the country decades earlier and hasn't paid taxes all that time. My brother in law has been living in England and other countries for over 20 years. If England sent him here for a lifetime of care, it would seem weird, but he maintains his US citizenship and I guess that makes him US responsibility.

I know little to nothing about it, but I thought you still had to pay taxes even if you live abroad?

[Texsox]

I know little to nothing about it, but I thought you still had to pay taxes even if you live abroad?

 

It depends. The most common situation here on the border is you pay taxes to the host country (Mexico) and that reduces any US taxes by the same amount. That is for people living in the US and working in Mexico. I split time between both and a few years paid in both countries. It becomes almost like working in two states. If you live in Wisconsin and work in Illinois, you pay income tax where you work.

 

Which really makes sense, imagine if foreign workers in the US sent their payroll taxes to their home country and not the US.

[Balta1701]

Somewhat on topic...Arizona's next immigration law?

What this means is that anyone who is admitted to or receives emergency care at a hospital will have to prove that they are lawfully present in the United States. This of course presents a whole hornet’s nest of problems-- the least of which is hospitals will most likely not appreciate being saddled with the added responsibility of immigration enforcement.

 

Of much greater importance is the likelihood that anyone who happens to be undocumented in this state (an estimated 460,000 people) may avoid hospitals for themselves or their family at all costs-- even if the price is death.

 

Of course a reasonable person would ask why someone would risk death to avoid deportation. The simple answer is that many who go to hospital emergency rooms really have no idea if their condition is life threatening.