hogan873 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 What this thread has become is a hot topic for a lot of people. As far as what Mark said, I can't begrudge him for feeling that way, but he probably shouldn't have said he wished Vick would get hurt. I personally think dogfighting is terrible, and Vick deserved to go to jail for it. The question of course is whether or not he's paid his dues. According to the law, yes. But if you ask a lot people, no. I'm on the fence, honestly. I think he's actually remorseful for what he did, but there's still the idea of what he did...and all for money. In regards to the other argument that has sprung up, I don't see a connection between being a dog lover and being an avid hunter. One can be both. Dogs are raised as pets, and they are usually trusting, loyal parts of families. When an animal like that is abused it's a terrible thing. Hunters, for the most part, consume the meat of the animals they shoot. They don't go out in the woods to torture an animal or pit two animals against each other and watch them fight. I know there are those idiots who go out and shoot animals just to shoot them, and they leave them to die. But people like that are vastly outnumbered by responsible hunters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 05:47 AM) The bolded is the key here. Domesticated dogs have been bred for thousands of years to be a natural companion of human beings. We have bred them to see human beings as members of their pack, using their natural tendencies to take a place in the hierarchy of that pack and see the human being as the alpha member of that pack. Therefore, dogs will seek to follow the desires of the alpha member of the pack, even if it may be being ordered to take part in an act which is against its own instinct, because that instinct has been overridden by the command of the alpha pack member. While there may be nothing wrong with that dynamic, from some perspective, as you say, Vick was not putting the dogs to this task for any reasonable or even defendable purpose, but instead, for bloodsport. While this may have been acceptable in some previous time, it no longer is, and he was well aware of this. Hunting, whether something you can stomach when considering the methods undertaken by human predators or not, is part of the natural order of things. Predators target prey for sustenance, and if that is the reason for Mark's hunting, than I find that difficult to be critical of. Hunting for pure sport, whether it is explained away in some attempt to justify it by achieving some ecological or modern logistical objective, is another debate altogether. Simply put, if we are to assume the hunting Mark does is for sustenance purposes, the two situations are clearly distinct and not analogous. Excellent post. I agree. Being a relatively new dog owner, I've heard the explanation about dogs seeing their owners as part of their pack. And when you have a dog that strives to please you and essentially becomes part of the family, it's hard to fathom what Vick did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Feb 9, 2011 -> 08:00 PM) Brilliant observation. Given that hunters only hunt because they're angry at the animals they're shooting at, I am also confused by this hypocritical stance of his. I'm picturing a fat, drunk hunter swearing under his breath at the deer while he's lining up the shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 We Are All Michael Vick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 08:19 AM) We Are All Michael Vick Oh man, Sqwert, you are going to unleash a s***storm with this one... I think there is definitely something to this debate, however, they are still distinct. There is a difference between doing this to an animal that is revered in our culture as being our #1 nonhuman companion versus the horrendous treatment meted out against other sentient creatures who happen to be part of our food chain. My guess is they are probably different levels of evil. But no matter how hypocritical it may be to pay critical attention to one and ignore the other, they are still just not the same. Edited February 10, 2011 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 08:19 AM) We Are All Michael Vick Just a warning to everyone, only click this link if you're willing to read an article written from someone on a morally superior soapbox and would like to see a hideous picture of a maimed dog at the top. I know i'm really glad I got to see that this morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 07:27 AM) Just a warning to everyone, only click this link if you're willing to read an article written from someone on a morally superior soapbox and would like to see a hideous picture of a maimed dog at the top. I know i'm really glad I got to see that this morning. Well at least you were able to recognize that not participating in animal torture and killing is in fact a morally superior way to lead your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chetkincaid Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I like Buehrle, but what a self righteous douche for saying that he hopes Mike Vick gets hurt... especially since he can go and blow out his elbow on the mound or rip his shoulder to shreds. Karma likes to bite idiots in the ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 07:27 AM) Just a warning to everyone, only click this link if you're willing to read an article written from someone on a morally superior soapbox and would like to see a hideous picture of a maimed dog at the top. I know i'm really glad I got to see that this morning. Like a fool, I went ahead and read the article. How can one even begin to compare the torturing of dogs and the eating of beef, pork, or fish? That was a complete waste of my time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Buehrle's got a right to his own opinion, but what a dumbass for saying anything publically. He can speak in generalities about treating animals the right way, but to point out Vick specifically is beyond dumb. I hope some of the leaders on the team (Konerko and maybe Dunn) make a point at the beginning of spring training that outside distractions won't be tolerated this season, and that they're there for one thing--to win baseball games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSox05 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 08:18 AM) Like a fool, I went ahead and read the article. How can one even begin to compare the torturing of dogs and the eating of beef, pork, or fish? That was a complete waste of my time. I'm sure if you spent some time at a factory farm, you would be able to make the connection pretty quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 08:29 AM) I'm sure if you spent some time at a factory farm, you would be able to make the connection pretty quick. I don't know. I understand that the way animals are processed for food is not something most people would want to witness. But I still cannot see the comparison of taking a blowtorch to a DOG and the processing of a COW for food. Cows, pigs, etc. are raised for food. Dogs are raised to be pets and companions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 No one ever said we needed to hear Mark Buehrle's political and ethical views. This is why. Keep to yourself #56 and keep on doing what you are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 08:39 AM) I don't know. I understand that the way animals are processed for food is not something most people would want to witness. But I still cannot see the comparison of taking a blowtorch to a DOG and the processing of a COW for food. Cows, pigs, etc. are raised for food. Dogs are raised to be pets and companions. It's the other way around in other countries. That's why people like Professor Francione and myself consider it moral schizophrenia. Edited February 10, 2011 by BigSqwert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 06:38 AM) Hunters, for the most part, consume the meat of the animals they shoot. They don't go out in the woods to torture an animal or pit two animals against each other and watch them fight. I know there are those idiots who go out and shoot animals just to shoot them, and they leave them to die. But people like that are vastly outnumbered by responsible hunters. What about the perspective of the helpless animal they set out to kill? I know as a sentient being I wouldn't enjoy someone going out and putting an arrow through my gut or getting a rifle's bullet through me as I limp away to bleed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 08:51 AM) What about the perspective of the helpless animal they set out to kill? I know as a sentient being I wouldn't enjoy someone going out and putting an arrow through my gut or getting a rifle's bullet through me as I limp away to bleed out. This is where the irresponsible hunters differ from the responsible ones. I would imagine most hunters have wounded an animal without killing it. Most would track the animal and, for lack of a better term, finish it off. Those that don't and have no remorse about it are the irresponsible ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 09:05 AM) This is where the irresponsible hunters differ from the responsible ones. I would imagine most hunters have wounded an animal without killing it. Most would track the animal and, for lack of a better term, finish it off. Those that don't and have no remorse about it are the irresponsible ones. I guess that's where my mindset is different than yours. I see absolutely no necessity to kill the animal in the first place. The entire premise is unnecessary and irresponsible in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxrwhite Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I don't have a problem with legal animal hunting. I also don't have a problem with dog lovers. The problem I noticed was the title of the article was " passionate about animal rights". This coming from an avid hunter seems wacky. Is he thinking about animal rights when he has a deer in his gun sights. Really don't care very much about any of this. Lets play ball! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (Ron @ Feb 9, 2011 -> 08:11 PM) Always thought Mark was a classy guy. This comment was far from that. Should've just kept it to himself. Vick paid his debt to society, regardless of what you think of the crime. Does Mark get as mad about a Ray Lewis or a Donte Stallworth, athletes who killed people? I'd bet not. Really? Why do you say that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 08:42 AM) No one ever said we needed to hear Mark Buehrle's political and ethical views. This is why. Keep to yourself #56 and keep on doing what you are doing. So who should comment on items like this or wars, poverty, politics, good restaurants, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 09:08 AM) I guess that's where my mindset is different than yours. I see absolutely no necessity to kill the animal in the first place. The entire premise is unnecessary and irresponsible in my eyes. Agree to disagree. By the way, the avatar...really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 09:25 AM) Agree to disagree. By the way, the avatar...really? Yes and yes. Someone has to stick up for the animals. Even if it's just 1% of the population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 10:08 AM) I guess that's where my mindset is different than yours. I see absolutely no necessity to kill the animal in the first place. The entire premise is unnecessary and irresponsible in my eyes. I respect and admire your position (and in some instances actually am on your side), and generally you make your views on veganism and the like known in a good way. But that article was kind of in your face and now with the avatar? I mean you're kind of asking for it in this instance. As far as the issue, I'm sure some of the mass production of animals and the hunting of them for food is done in ways most of us would care to not know of, but there are attempts to make it as humane as possible and it is for a reason. You may disagree with the reason but meat consumption has been a staple of the human diet for a long time. The ways in which dogfighting is conducted is done for no reason but pure sport. I just don't see the connection there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I apologize to those I may have offended with my last avatar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Feb 10, 2011 -> 09:59 AM) I apologize to those I may have offended with my last avatar. The truffle shuffle is a capital offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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