Which World Would You Want to Live In?

[Texsox]

And thank you Sqwert for making me feel like a hypocrite.

[Y2HH]

My hunch is violence against animals would lead to violence against humans. Interesting you would post this.

 

Unrelated in every way.

 

Most modern murderers haven't ever hunted, nor will they ever. They're just murderers.

 

I'm just on the realistic side...I don't care what a vegan eats, they can do what they want. But the world doesn't have enough food in it without animals being a part of the food. And if you think killing animals to food links to murder, you are reaching far in search for what isn't there.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Y2HH

[Texsox]

You don't believe that violence begets more violence?

[Balta1701]

I'm just on the realistic side...I don't care what a vegan eats, they can do what they want. But the world doesn't have enough food in it without animals being a part of the food. And if you think killing animals to food links to murder, you are reaching far in search for what isn't there.

Huh?

 

Producing meat products takes an awful lot more food-products than simply eating the food/grains yourself. If you want to be a realist on the amount of food available, then meat is the last thing you should eat.

 

It's a pyramid. If you eat everything at the base of the pyramid, you have the most available food. If you eat the next level..the level that eats the base below it, there's less food available. Every level you move up, there's less available at the level just below.

[Y2HH]

Huh?

 

Producing meat products takes an awful lot more food-products than simply eating the food/grains yourself. If you want to be a realist on the amount of food available, then meat is the last thing you should eat.

 

It's a pyramid. If you eat everything at the base of the pyramid, you have the most available food. If you eat the next level..the level that eats the base below it, there's less food available. Every level you move up, there's less available at the level just below.

 

Huh?

 

Do you really need it explained to you?

 

Ok...now listen carefully, Billy...you may actually learn something you can apply to a REAL world, not a made up fantasy land!

 

While what you say might hold true for a temporary amount of time in this mythical world you've built...after a few years, it would come to a grinding halt. While the farmed for meat animals of the day would fall off in population (cows/chickens/pigs), every other animal under the sun would grow exponentially. You see, Billy, since #1 on the food chain (humans) stopped hunting them, they'd grow in number at a rate that would make your little head spin. Deer would absolutely EXPLODE in population, and with nobody to cull the herd, they'd eat your precious crops...the only reason why deer aren't eating those crops now is because they'll get shot for trying. Same applies to rabbits, and just about any other small animal. It wouldn't take long for wolves to realize they aren't getting shot for roaming around, either. Now, if you allowed us to kill animals attempting to eat in this world you've created, but we aren't eating them, then we create a new problem since we would have dead animal carcasses everywhere...and I'm not sure that was the solution you were attempting to find here...

 

You see, Billy, it's part of the natural cycle...and ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

 

This perfect world you are all contemplating CANNOT exist.

 

Someone HAS to hunt and kill these things. It's a top down thing. As I said previously, nature INTENDED it. Keep in mind, the farm animals we keep alive now for meat harvesting are in a controlled population. Without us, and hunters, there would be nothing to control such populations...and most of these animals wouldn't just disappear, "just cuz you want them too in your perfect little vegan world".

[Balta1701]

Really?

 

Your defense for eating animals is that if you don't control a small number of them, agriculture will suffer?

 

Fine.

 

In that case, the ideal human consumption in terms of energy efficiency is 99.99% agriculturally grown products, and .01% animal products produced as by-products of population control. You're not feeding 7 billion people based on the few deer and other species it takes to keep herds from becoming overgrown.

 

That's not a defense of anything. You've pretty much given everyone on earth a reason to eat meat 1 time every year or two.

 

Hell, if anything, it's more a defense of protecting natural predators like wolves, which control the animal population on their own, and thus in those cases actually serve to increase agricultural production efficiency.

[StrangeSox]

It really misses the entire point of criticizing farm-raised animals. If we eliminated all factory production of pigs, cows and chicken, we wouldn't suddenly have a glut of uncontrolled population with no predators running through the countryside. It's a specious argument.

 

Animal population control is unrelated to the "should we eat meat?" question since wild game accounts for such a tiny, tiny percentage of meat eaten in this country.

[Y2HH]

Really?

 

Your defense for eating animals is that if you don't control a small number of them, agriculture will suffer?

 

Fine.

 

In that case, the ideal human consumption in terms of energy efficiency is 99.99% agriculturally grown products, and .01% animal products produced as by-products of population control. You're not feeding 7 billion people based on the few deer and other species it takes to keep herds from becoming overgrown.

 

That's not a defense of anything. You've pretty much given everyone on earth a reason to eat meat 1 time every year or two.

 

Hell, if anything, it's more a defense of protecting natural predators like wolves, which control the animal population on their own, and thus in those cases actually serve to increase agricultural production efficiency.

 

Well, for one, we aren't actually feeding 7 billion people. A lot of them are and will be dying off of starvation. A famine is going to hit some of these over populated counties sooner than later.

 

The problem with wolves, you see, is they aren't particular about what they hunt/eat...they'll eat children (or even adults) as easily as they will a cow or a dog. So, once again, we have to kill in order to control them, one way or another. That said, I'm not arguing that we eat too much meat...I don't even eat meat everyday, but I do eat it. I'm simply saying that in you CANNOT build this "ideal world", because it doesn't exist. We are a necessary predator, as are wolves, all the way down the line. We cannot just decide to step down from that job in natures eyes...it doesn't work that way.

 

So whether we at 99% plant 1% meat, the 1% is NECESSARY. We cannot do all or nothing.

 

Back to the original point of this post...the question posed was unfair.

 

Why do the hunters have to hunt to kill their meat, but the vegans don't have to farm to get their fruits and vegetables?

 

Also, note that it's become sport to troll you, Balta.

 

I'm practically a shoe in for the troll Soxtalk HOF.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Y2HH

[Steve9347]

I'm surprised at myself that I went "All Vegan" given my love of meat. However, when faced with the prospect of taking the time to hunt after work and on weekends (assuming the rest of the world remains the same) vs running to the store to get the necessities, I'll take the latter.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Steve9347

[StrangeSox]

A more fair question would allow you to raise and slaughter your own animals. Basically, "what type of farmer do you want to be?"

[Y2HH]

A more fair question would allow you to raise and slaughter your own animals. Basically, "what type of farmer do you want to be?"

 

Right, whatever the case, it just seems like the question was posed in a manner in which you are almost *forced* to choose vegan, as with the meat eating lifestyle, you have to hunt, kill and clean, while with the proposed vegan lifestyle, all you have to do is go to the market and buy stuff...

 

Even I, a meat eater would be forced to choose vegan in the way this question was framed, as I do not have the time to hunt, etc. Now, if I had to grow the crops I eat for the year, I think I'd rather hunt, and have a small garden. So again, I'm back to square one...I'd do both! But that wasn't a choice!

Edited February 14, 2011 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

I guess it makes you think about the question of why meat is so ubiquitous in today's society--would you eat nearly as much if it wasn't so readily available and prepared? Boneless, skinless chicken breasts allow consumers to be pretty far removed from the idea of actually killing and eating a chicken.

[BigSqwert]

A little off subject but not sure where else to put this.

 

*Opens can of worms*

 

Good read in this month's Atlantic magazine: The Moral Crusade Against Foodies

 

I particularly found this passage interesting:

Here too, though, an at lea

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t half-

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eriou

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moral logic i

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at wor

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, bac

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ed up by the

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ubculture

’

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di

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tinct body of myth, which combine

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half-under

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tood evolutionary theory with the biblical idea of man a

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born lord of the world. Anthropological re

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earch, I

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hould perhap

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point out, now indicate

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that Homo

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apien

s

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tarted out a

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a paltry prey animal. Clawle

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, fangle

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, and

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light of build, he could at be

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t loo

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forward to furtive bolting

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of carrion until the day he became meat him

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elf. It too

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human

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quite a while to learn how to gang up for

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elf-protection and food acqui

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ition, the latter u

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ually a hyena-

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tyle affair of

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eparating infant or

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ic

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animal

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from their herd

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. The dome

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tication of pig

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, cow

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, chic

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en

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, etc. ha

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been going on for only about 10,000 year

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—

not nearly long enough to breed the in

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tinct

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out of them. The hideou

s

paraphernalia of

s

ubjugation pictured in The CAFO Reader? It

’

s

not there for nothing.

[StrangeSox]

Meh, most of the comments do a pretty solid job of framing my thoughts. What was the point of that article, except to b**** for b****ing's sake?

 

Response to the article found in the comments:

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/forkintheroa...foodies_are.php

 

Response in Salon as well:

http://www.salon.com/food/francis_lam/2011...dies/index.html

 

Why is it that people with the name "initial""initial" Myers, both this BR Myers and PZ Myers, seem to be pompous, egotistical, elitist and evangelical douchebags?

Edited February 14, 2011 by StrangeSox

[Balta1701]

Why is it that people with the name "initial""initial" Myers, both this BR Myers and PZ Myers, seem to be pompous, egotistical, elitist and evangelical douchebags?

WTF do you have against PZ?

[StrangeSox]

WTF do you have against PZ?

 

His being a pompous douchebag in general, but particularly the whole "New Atheist" bulls*** subculture where atheism is turned into a religion and Meyers is one of the leading evangelists.

 

From what I know he does good biology.

[Texsox]

Huh?

 

Do you really need it explained to you?

 

Ok...now listen carefully, Billy...you may actually learn something you can apply to a REAL world, not a made up fantasy land!

 

While what you say might hold true for a temporary amount of time in this mythical world you've built...after a few years, it would come to a grinding halt. While the farmed for meat animals of the day would fall off in population (cows/chickens/pigs), every other animal under the sun would grow exponentially. You see, Billy, since #1 on the food chain (humans) stopped hunting them, they'd grow in number at a rate that would make your little head spin. Deer would absolutely EXPLODE in population, and with nobody to cull the herd, they'd eat your precious crops...the only reason why deer aren't eating those crops now is because they'll get shot for trying. Same applies to rabbits, and just about any other small animal. It wouldn't take long for wolves to realize they aren't getting shot for roaming around, either. Now, if you allowed us to kill animals attempting to eat in this world you've created, but we aren't eating them, then we create a new problem since we would have dead animal carcasses everywhere...and I'm not sure that was the solution you were attempting to find here...

 

You see, Billy, it's part of the natural cycle...and ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

 

This perfect world you are all contemplating CANNOT exist.

 

Someone HAS to hunt and kill these things. It's a top down thing. As I said previously, nature INTENDED it. Keep in mind, the farm animals we keep alive now for meat harvesting are in a controlled population. Without us, and hunters, there would be nothing to control such populations...and most of these animals wouldn't just disappear, "just cuz you want them too in your perfect little vegan world".

 

How many people here have eaten rabbit or deer in the past five years? Armadillo? Wolves? Bear? Squirrel?

 

 

 

Waiting for their numbers to EXPLODE!

 

 

[StrangeSox]

I've eaten deer within the last five years. Wild Boar, also.

[Y2HH]

How many people here have eaten rabbit or deer in the past five years? Armadillo? Wolves? Bear? Squirrel?

 

 

 

Waiting for their numbers to EXPLODE!

 

Me.

 

I've eaten rabbit, deer, squirrel and bear in the last year alone, and it's what, February? No wolves though, as I think you'll go to jail if you shoot one. I think they're on the protected list, or they were, they may not be now.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Y2HH

[Y2HH]

I've eaten deer within the last five years. Wild Boar, also.

 

Interestingly enough, I've always wanted to try Wild Boar, but never have.

[Balta1701]

Me.

 

I've eaten rabbit, deer, squirrel and bear in the last year alone, and it's what, February? No wolves though, as I think you'll go to jail if you shoot one. I think they're on the protected list, or they were, they may not be now.

They were taken off the protected list just over a year ago...and immediately, a hunter just outside of Yellowstone killed a tagged pack-leading animal and pretty disrupted half a decade of science. Another was killed using a banned poison.

[RockRaines]

How many people here have eaten rabbit or deer in the past five years? Armadillo? Wolves? Bear? Squirrel?

 

 

 

Waiting for their numbers to EXPLODE!

Wolf meat is far too stringy

[kjshoe04]

I'm surprised at myself that I went "All Vegan" given my love of meat. However, when faced with the prospect of taking the time to hunt after work and on weekends (assuming the rest of the world remains the same) vs running to the store to get the necessities, I'll take the latter.

This is exactly my thought process. Although i eat a lot of meat, I wouldn't want to have to hunt it myself. I'd rather eat veggies all the time.

Edited February 14, 2011 by kjshoe04

[LittleHurt05]

It depends how this world would come about. If I had to make the choice tommorrow with the life I live now, I would definitely choose vegan. As much as I enjoy meat, I don't have the killer instinct to kill all my food, nor would I want to expend the time or energy.

 

But if I were born into this imaginary world, I would definitely choose the hunter option. In that scenario, its something that I would know from the day I was born, so I would have the instinct to do it and it would just be expected.

Edited February 14, 2011 by LittleHurt05

[Texsox]

Me.

 

I've eaten rabbit, deer, squirrel and bear in the last year alone, and it's what, February? No wolves though, as I think you'll go to jail if you shoot one. I think they're on the protected list, or they were, they may not be now.

 

And single handily you have saved the country from overpopulation.