2011 Cubs Thread

[Balta1701]

I think some of you just want to criticize the Cubs for whatever they do.

 

They're building a stronger FO with these moves. It may not result in 2 titles like it did in Boston, but getting these two in the mix is definitely setting them up better for the future than having Jim Hendry there.

 

I am not expecting Theo and Jed to transform the Cubs into a powerhouse overnight, but in my opinion, this is a definite solid first step to getting the product on the field back to respectability.

See...I still will sit here and defend Jim Hendry on almost every deal/move he made other than the Milton Bradley one. Almost everything he did was, IMO, management directed...with a "Win now and maximize revenue so the team can be sold" mantra for the Tribune company, followed by the "make moves that keep butts in the seats" mantra the last year or two.

 

The Cubs were guaranteed to have a fairly weak system. They've regularly been giving up draft picks to sign big time free agents, but they still are producing youngsters from their system. In 2006 they had no 2, 3, or 4th round picks, but still came up with Colvin and Samardzija. 2007, they have Vitters and Barney (probably 1/2 their starting IF next season). Cashner in 2008, LeMahieu in 2009, in addition to some big time international successes (Castro, Marmol).

 

They have pretty much done what they're supposed to do. Successes internationally, supplemented by 1-2 guys already reaching the big leagues from each one of their drafts.

[southsider2k5]

I think some of you just want to criticize the Cubs for whatever they do.

 

They're building a stronger FO with these moves. It may not result in 2 titles like it did in Boston, but getting these two in the mix is definitely setting them up better for the future than having Jim Hendry there.

 

I am not expecting Theo and Jed to transform the Cubs into a powerhouse overnight, but in my opinion, this is a definite solid first step to getting the product on the field back to respectability.

 

To be honest, they have had plenty of respectability over the last 10 to 15 years. They have won divisions and wild cards, and been competitive for the most part. When it comes to them getting the brass ring, yes I scoff, because I have 103 years of history on my side. We get this big fix every few years that is going to put them over the top and end the drought. It never happens.

[clyons]

I think some of you just want to criticize the Cubs for whatever they do.

 

They're building a stronger FO with these moves. It may not result in 2 titles like it did in Boston, but getting these two in the mix is definitely setting them up better for the future than having Jim Hendry there.

 

I am not expecting Theo and Jed to transform the Cubs into a powerhouse overnight, but in my opinion, this is a definite solid first step to getting the product on the field back to respectability.

 

I don't see much criticism of the moves, per se. Of the hype and expectations, absolutely (and much deserved).

 

I heard (haven't seen) that its on the Front page of the Trib's main section today, not just the sports page, and that last night's awesome WSG2 was relegated to page 8 of Sports. That's slightly f'd up.

[iamshack]

To be honest, they have had plenty of respectability over the last 10 to 15 years. They have won divisions and wild cards, and been competitive for the most part. When it comes to them getting the brass ring, yes I scoff, because I have 103 years of history on my side. We get this big fix every few years that is going to put them over the top and end the drought. It never happens.

They've won divisions, but the years they haven't been competitive they've lost 90 games quite a few times.

 

I don't follow the Cubs enough to really know the real reason they seem to be so hot and cold (cold more often than hot), but bringing in a solid management team, rather than just throwing money at FA's seems to be a really solid first step.

 

Not saying they are going to suddenly turn in to some powerhouse on the field, but I certainly think their chances of doing that are better than before they made this set of moves.

[southsider2k5]

They've won divisions, but the years they haven't been competitive they've lost 90 games quite a few times.

 

I don't follow the Cubs enough to really know the real reason they seem to be so hot and cold (cold more often than hot), but bringing in a solid management team, rather than just throwing money at FA's seems to be a really solid first step.

 

Not saying they are going to suddenly turn in to some powerhouse on the field, but I certainly think their chances of doing that are better than before they made this set of moves.

 

Yeah, again, this is the same stuff we heard when both McPhail and Hendry were brought in. Both were respected baseball guys with great histories. Andy had won WS's in MN.

 

I'm sure they will get better. Too many indicators are working in their favor for them to not improve over the next few years. But they will falter when it comes from getting from point B to point C, just like they always do.

[RockRaines]

NotTomRicketts Not Tom Ricketts

by espnchijon

New strategy. Pete, Laura, Todd & I will yell "CanWeHaveTheo?" over&over until @John_W_Henry gives in. That's how we got dad to buy the Cubs

[Harry Chappas]

These are nice solid moves but if Theo and Jed were the be all end all that the cubs are portraying and paying them to be, why are their teams willing to let them go?

 

I did not realize that Josh Byrnes was the asst. GM for the Padres and AJ Hinch is involved there. While those guys on the surface do not look that great, didn't they build the D'Backs organization to this point.

 

San Diego replaces Hoyer with Byrnes.

 

Again maybe San Diego is not that high on ole Jed any longer.

 

Theo will not have the baseball minds around him in Chicago that he had in Boston, that is what would temper my enthusiasm if I were a minion.

[Chisoxfn]

to me it does not pass the smell test

 

Why Hoyer would leave to become theo's lackey says a-lot about him to me....why would the Padres let him leave is a bigger question.

So Epstein benefits from 1 year worth of Agon? I don't buy this tampering argument.

[Harry Chappas]

So Epstein benefits from 1 year worth of Agon? I don't buy this tampering argument.

 

All I am saying is that it does not seem right.

 

Hoyer traded the best chip SD had to rebuild and 10 months later he is working with the guy he traded with I know in a different city. I know there is no tampering or anything there and obviously SD was not real high on ole Jed any longer.

 

The whole thing has an odd feel to it in my mind.

 

I do not recall something of this magnitude ever happening so maybe that is just the gist I am getting.

 

San Diego obviously would rather have Byrnes running the show than Jed. Byrnes seems to have a good idea about what he is doing.

[Wedge]

I sort of don't get a couple of things

 

1) If Theo is going to be the Team President, why do the Cubs need to provide compensation? I thought compensation was only for lateral moves.

2) Why are the Cubs going through all this trouble to bring Theo in as Team President? You'd figure his talent is as a GM and that bringing in a GM under him only undermines the ability to use Theo's talents.

[Balta1701]

I sort of don't get a couple of things

 

1) If Theo is going to be the Team President, why do the Cubs need to provide compensation? I thought compensation was only for lateral moves.

2) Why are the Cubs going through all this trouble to bring Theo in as Team President? You'd figure his talent is as a GM and that bringing in a GM under him only undermines the ability to use Theo's talents.

1. Because Theo is currently under contract with the Red Sox. The Red Sox have a right to demand compensation for releasing him from his contract.

 

2. PResumably bringing in Hoyer along with Theo is Theo and Hoyer's call and the Cubs are going along with it.

[Harry Chappas]

1. Because Theo is currently under contract with the Red Sox. The Red Sox have a right to demand compensation for releasing him from his contract.

 

2. PResumably bringing in Hoyer along with Theo is Theo and Hoyer's call and the Cubs are going along with it.

 

I get the feeling Hoyer was going to be canned.

[Balta1701]

I get the feeling Hoyer was going to be canned.

After what, 1 year on the job?

[Harry Chappas]

After what, 1 year on the job?

 

I think he has been there for two years and turned a 90 win team into a 70 win team....I understand there were payroll issues.

 

Why would he leave for a lesser position under Theo?

 

If Moorad likes Josh Byrnes more than Jed which is not that far fetched this is an easy way to move Jed out.

 

Hinch & Byrnes v. McLeod & Hoyer.......

[RockRaines]

I think he has been there for two years and turned a 90 win team into a 70 win team....I understand there were payroll issues.

 

Why would he leave for a lesser position under Theo?

 

If Moorad likes Josh Byrnes more than Jed which is not that far fetched this is an easy way to move Jed out.

 

Hinch & Byrnes v. McLeod & Hoyer.......

How is it a lesser position? He is the GM, otherwise he couldnt leave.

[Harry Chappas]

How is it a lesser position? He is the GM, otherwise he couldnt leave.

 

It is a lateral move.

 

Jed is EVP & GM reports to Moorad who is not a baseball talent evaluator

 

with the cubs

 

Jed will be GM and probably have the same title. The difference is he will be answering to Theo who is a baseball evaluator. He will always be in Theo's shadow now and have him looking over his shoulder. At the first site of the cubs being the cubs, who goes the two time World Series GM or the guy that took a 90 win Padres team to a 70 win team with one move?

 

This is a good move for the cubs but I just do not see it as the cubs raping everyone. I see it as Boston liking Cherington and SD liking Byrnes. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

If the cubs waited a couple of weeks they could have potentially gotten both guys for nothing as I think they would have been out of jobs as the Angels and Baltimore are lookign for guys.

 

[Balta1701]

Bud Selig hints that he may have to personally get involved to mediate the Theo Compensation Talks.

 

Former Arizona GM Josh Byrnes would likely take over in S.D.

 

Hoyer took the offer from the Cubs to San Diego's GM, asked for a comparable length extension of his contract, and did not get one.

[RockRaines]

It is a lateral move.

 

Jed is EVP & GM reports to Moorad who is not a baseball talent evaluator

 

with the cubs

 

Jed will be GM and probably have the same title. The difference is he will be answering to Theo who is a baseball evaluator. He will always be in Theo's shadow now and have him looking over his shoulder. At the first site of the cubs being the cubs, who goes the two time World Series GM or the guy that took a 90 win Padres team to a 70 win team with one move?

 

This is a good move for the cubs but I just do not see it as the cubs raping everyone. I see it as Boston liking Cherington and SD liking Byrnes. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

If the cubs waited a couple of weeks they could have potentially gotten both guys for nothing as I think they would have been out of jobs as the Angels and Baltimore are lookign for guys.

Yes, but not a "lesser" position otherwise MLB wouldnt approve of it.

[Marty34]

NESN >> Theo Epstein Resigns From Red Sox to Take Over as Cubs President of Baseball Operations

 

It's official. Buckle up Kenny.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Marty34

[RockRaines]

NESN >> Theo Epstein Resigns From Red Sox to Take Over as Cubs President of Baseball Operations

 

It's official. Buckle up Kenny.

For a team with less talent and not even in our league? Good one.

[dpd9189]

I hate to say it but I love this move by the Cubs. Bringing in some young, hungry and proven baseball guys to try and turn around a whole organization....not just the current team. The more I read about how things were run there, the more I really see what a clusterf*** their FO was in the past. They won't be good overnight but I think they'll be a much improved organization as a whole in a couple years.

[Balta1701]

I hate to say it but I love this move by the Cubs. Bringing in some young, hungry and proven baseball guys to try and turn around a whole organization....not just the current team. The more I read about how things were run there, the more I really see what a clusterf*** their FO was in the past. They won't be good overnight but I think they'll be a much improved organization as a whole in a couple years.

"Hungry"?

 

And I'll give you a choice...worse FO clusterf***...Boston and their $100 million in Adam Dunn quality contracts, or the Cubs'? Death is not an option.

[Marty34]

Theo bailed because that Boston ship is sinking. Big pitching problems and big contracts.

[Balta1701]

Theo bailed because that Boston ship is sinking. Big pitching problems and big contracts.

All of which are his work.

[Balta1701]

Link

The cult of the general manager is upon us, like a wave of pre-teen girls at a Taylor Swift concert.

 

It's not Albert Pujols or Prince Fielder who will save the Cubs. Not a new owner with deep pockets or a tactical and motivational wizard in the dugout. No, it's Theo Epstein! Former boy genius of the Red Sox! The general manager who combined statistical analysis with scouting reports with the intelligence of NASA engineers planning a trip to the moon. Forget the World Series, what's the latest update on Theo?

 

My question: How accurate is the narrative as Epstein as the best -- or one of the GMs in the game? Did we not learn with Billy Beane and the post-"Moneyball" A's that there is no such as a front-office genius? (Epstein will serve as the Cubs' president of baseball operations, with current Padres GM Jed Hoyer serving as the GM.)

 

Fact: During his tenure as Red Sox GM -- 2003 through 2011 -- Epstein won fewer division titles than the Tampa Bay Rays.

 

Fact No. 2: Epstein took over a franchise that had won 93 games in 2002 and included on its roster Pedro Martinez, Manny Ramirez, Nomar Garciaparra, Johnny Damon, Jason Varitek, Trot Nixon, Derek Lowe and Tim Wakefield. Kevin Youkilis and Jon Lester were in the farm system.

 

In his nine years as GM, Epstein won just one division title and never won 100 games. He did, of course, win two World Series, and that's the most important line on his résumé; I'm not knocking his accomplismens. It was a terrific run. I just don't think you can assume he'll turn around the Cubs

 

His best trait as a GM: Exploiting the financially strapped franchises of the major leagues. Consider the biggest trades he made during his career:

 

2004 -- Curt Schilling from Diamondbacks.

2004 -- Nomar Garciaparra to Cubs in three-way trade that netted Orlando Cabrerra.

2006 -- Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell from the Marlins.

2008 -- Jason Bay from Pirates in three-way trade involving Manny Ramirez.

2009 -- Victor Martinez from Indians.

2011 -- Adrian Gonzalez from Padres.

 

Other than the Garciaparra trade, the other five were all deals that brought over established superstars (or in the case of Bay, an underrated star). Yes, Epstein deserves credit for managing to pull off those types of deals, but it's important to remember those players were available due to salary concerns by their former teams. When a player like Adrian Gonzalez becomes available, there are only a few franchises that have both ability to trade prospects and the financial means to sign the player to a long-term contract.

 

Those are not high-risk deals to make. If you have the capital to afford Curt Schilling, it's a no-brainer to trade for him. The risk is made by the team acquiring the prospects. In order to make similar deals with the Cubs, he and his new GM will need deep pocketbooks more than brains.

 

In his early years, Epstein had success on the second-tier free agent market. In 2003, he signed Bill Mueller for $2.1 million, less than he'd made the year before with the Cubs. A .286 hitter to that point in his career, Mueller hit .326 and won the batting title. He purchased Kevin Millar from the Marlins. The Twins had let David Ortiz go; the Red Sox signed him for $1.25 million. (Although Jeremy Giambi actually began '03 as the team's DH.) He signed Mike Timlin as a free agent at a lower salary than he'd been making; most teams saw him as a failed closer; the Red Sox saw a durable set-up guy.

 

In 2004, he acquired Mark Bellorn, a so-called "Moneyball"-type player: Weak defensively at second, but a guy with power who drew walks. Bellhorn had one good season for the Red Sox. The year before, the Sox had picked up Bronson Arroyo off waivers from the Pirates; in '04 became a key part of the rotation. He signed Keith Foulke as a free agent, a relatively easy move to make since he'd posted a 2.48 ERA over the previous five seasons.

 

Those were all good, smart moves that paid off. But those kinds of moves have been few and far between since. Just like Billy Beane's genius -- in part -- was having a rotation with Tim Hudson, Mark Mulder and Barry Zito, part of Epstein's genius was ... well, getting a little bit lucky. It's not easy to find guys who suddenly hit 40 points above their career average or strike it big in exactly the right season.

 

Since then, the Sox relied mostly on the free-agent market: Edgar Renteria, David Wells, Matt Clement, Alex Gonzalez, J.D. Drew, Julio Lugo, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Hideki Okajima, Takashi Saito, Adrian Beltre, Marco Scutaro, John Lackey, Mike Cameron, Carl Crawford, Bobby Jenks.

 

I'm not reviewing Epstein's entire career here, but you can judge that list for yourself. Some moves worked, some didn't, and a few don't look good right now.

 

The Cubs are in a much different position than when Epstein took over the Cubs. The big league talent base is lacking; the farm system isn't strong. Fixing the Cubs will be a bigger challenge than the getting the Red Sox over the curse.