2011 Cubs Thread

[RockRaines]

I honestly feel bad for serious Cubs fans. They cheer for a team that legitimately doesnt give a s*** about them. Their stadium will be full and continue to crumble, and nothing can be done about it.

[NorthSideSox72]

I honestly feel bad for serious Cubs fans. They cheer for a team that legitimately doesnt give a s*** about them. Their stadium will be full and continue to crumble, and nothing can be done about it.

Except they aren't filling the stadium this year like in previous years. Their attendance is trending down, and will continue to do so.

 

I honestly think we may see here an opening, for the Sox to pull a lot closer to being as relevant to Chicago baseball fans as the Cubs are (though they won't be able to have the same national following, probably). But to do that, the Sox need to be competitive and reach the post-season semi-regularly over the next few years, and re-development around the park needs to continue. And the Cubs need to continue to be bad on the field, and have their stadium continue to crumble.

 

This is a long process of course, because the die-hard fans don't change allegiances. What you are targeting are the casual fans, non-team-specific fans, and most importantly, the kids who haven't chosen a team yet.

 

People who dismiss this possibility have short memories. Over the 110 years of Cubs and Sox baseball, the Sox have had long periods of being the dominant team. They outdrew the cubs as recently as 18 years ago, and were close to them a couple years between. Cubs dominating the Sox in Chicago is not a permanent state, and its not something that's always been true.

 

[southsider2k5]

Except they aren't filling the stadium this year like in previous years. Their attendance is trending down, and will continue to do so.

 

I honestly think we may see here an opening, for the Sox to pull a lot closer to being as relevant to Chicago baseball fans as the Cubs are (though they won't be able to have the same national following, probably). But to do that, the Sox need to be competitive and reach the post-season semi-regularly over the next few years, and re-development around the park needs to continue. And the Cubs need to continue to be bad on the field, and have their stadium continue to crumble.

 

This is a long process of course, because the die-hard fans don't change allegiances. What you are targeting are the casual fans, non-team-specific fans, and most importantly, the kids who haven't chosen a team yet.

 

People who dismiss this possibility have short memories. Over the 110 years of Cubs and Sox baseball, the Sox have had long periods of being the dominant team. They outdrew the cubs as recently as 18 years ago, and were close to them a couple years between. Cubs dominating the Sox in Chicago is not a permanent state, and its not something that's always been true.

 

They really look to be coming into a world of hurt if their minor league system doesn't produce and produce in a big way, very quickly.

[Milkman delivers]

I take back anything bad I have ever said about Peter Gammons

 

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/06/10/gam...ield-is-a-dump/

 

I've always liked Gammons and never understood all of the hate. Sure, he's a bit of a Red Sox homer since that's where he's from, but he's almost always fair. He also seems to have more contacts in the game than just about anyone.

[bigruss]

I've always liked Gammons and never understood all of the hate. Sure, he's a bit of a Red Sox homer since that's where he's from, but he's almost always fair. He also seems to have more contacts in the game than just about anyone.

He's a good writer too, and he used to be better on TV before his health problems. He has a tendency to struggle to speak his thoughts and will stumble more than he used to. Too bad, because he does know a lot of people in the game and can be a great guy to learn from.

 

 

[Harry Chappas]

There is no Keery Wood or Sammy Soas to hang the flag on.

 

the media is not goign ot cover the nice castro story as he does not hae the wow factor.

 

The cubs are trending down and the attendance is suffering. Another series like last year could go a long way for the White Sox.

[Iwritecode]

There is no Keery Wood or Sammy Soas to hang the flag on.

 

the media is not goign ot cover the nice castro story as he does not hae the wow factor.

 

The cubs are trending down and the attendance is suffering. Another series like last year could go a long way for the White Sox.

 

Also they have lost 8 straight playoff games. 6 in back-to-back years.

 

People got their hopes way, way up when the 100-year anniversary came around. Then the whole "Year 1" thing. The Cubs have simply failed to deliver and the fans are finally getting tired of it.

[Balta1701]

Lou Montanez batting 3rd for the Cubs today...

THE Lou Montanez?

[Jordan4life_2007]

The Cubs had about a 3-year window (2007-2009) to win that elusive World Series that now they'll never sniff. The Cardinals are arguably the best-run organization in the NL. This was looking like a down year (especially after losing Wainwright) for them. And here they are with I believe the second best record in the NL. They'll always find a way to be right in the thick of things. The Reds, though they've underachieved some, aren't going anywhere with their young core of Bruce, Votto, Stubbs leading the offense and a bevy of quality, high upside starting pitchers. The Pirates are no longer a laughing stock. And they've got three of the top pitching 'spects (Cole, Taillon, Alie) in the game on the horizon. The Brewers are on fire of late and should be really good next year as well (though losing Fielder will hurt, obviously). And then there's the Astros. Won't even get into the Phillies and Braves. You know they're not going anywhere. The Marlins have a future superstar in Mike Stanton and two more potential all-stars in Morrison and Sanchez, to go along with Hanley, JJ, Nolasco and Anibal Sanchez. The Giants with that rotation (and a healthy Posey) aren't going anywhere. Colorado has two superstars and a CY caliber pitcher and a ton of young talent on both the big league club and in the minors. D-backs are on the up and up. The Nationals will have more star power than any team in the NL soon. I guess what I'm saying is that the Cubs had their chance when the NL was pretty s***ty. Now the NL is A LOT better and will continue to get better while they're stuck in no-man's land. I love it. I hope they continue to suffer. I feel sorry for Cubs fans like I feel sorry for child molesters.

Edited June 12, 2011 by Jordan4life

[Balta1701]

The Cardinals sorta have something of an ace in the hole...who's a free agent after this year.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The Cardinals sorta have something of an ace in the hole...who's a free agent after this year.

 

Pujols is the ultimate trump card, obviously. But you don't contend year after year like they do because of one man. Especially in a sport as unpredictable as baseball. Take this year for example: obviously the Berkman signing has been fantastic. But look at how their farm has come through for them. Matt Holliday goes down? No problem. Enter Jon Jay and his .313/.370/.438/.807 OPS in LF. Skip Schumaker sucks? Enter Allen Craig and his .928 OPS at 2B. What do you say? You mean Ryan Frankin isn't getting the job done at closer? No sweat. Enter Fernando Salas and his 1.88 ERA, 1.01 WHIP, 30 Ks, 11/12 save/save oppos in 28 IP. Wait, need a set-up man? Enter Edjuardo Sanchez and his 1.95 ERA, 1.08 WHIP, 33 Ks and 5 saves in 27 2/3 IP. Nobody knew who Jaime Garcia was 18 months ago. Now he's one of the top young 25 and under starting pitchers in baseball. David Freese has done nothing but rake the last two years when healthy. That's how you do it. That's why the farm is so important and why I stress that ad nauseum. They're not calling on the Lucas Harrell's, Jeff Marquez's and Dallas McPherson's of the world.

[southsider2k5]

Pujols is the ultimate trump card, obviously. But you don't contend year after year like they do because of one man. Especially in a sport as unpredictable as baseball. Take this year for example: obviously the Berkman signing has been fantastic. But look at how their farm has come through for them. Matt Holliday goes down? No problem. Enter Jon Jay and his .313/.370/.438/.807 OPS in LF. Skip Schumaker sucks? Enter Allen Craig and his .928 OPS at 2B. What do you say? You mean Ryan Frankin isn't getting the job done at closer? No sweat. Enter Fernando Salas and his 1.88 ERA, 1.01 WHIP, 30 Ks, 11/12 save/save oppos in 28 IP. Wait, need a set-up man? Enter Edjuardo Sanchez and his 1.95 ERA, 1.08 WHIP, 33 Ks and 5 saves in 27 2/3 IP. Nobody knew who Jaime Garcia was 18 months ago. Now he's one of the top young 25 and under starting pitchers in baseball. David Freese has done nothing but rake the last two years when healthy. That's how you do it. That's why the farm is so important and why I stress that ad nauseum. They're not calling on the Lucas Harrell's, Jeff Marquez's and Dallas McPherson's of the world.

 

That team will look completely different if Albert Poo Holes isn't holding it up.

[iamshack]

Pujols is the ultimate trump card, obviously. But you don't contend year after year like they do because of one man. Especially in a sport as unpredictable as baseball. Take this year for example: obviously the Berkman signing has been fantastic. But look at how their farm has come through for them. Matt Holliday goes down? No problem. Enter Jon Jay and his .313/.370/.438/.807 OPS in LF. Skip Schumaker sucks? Enter Allen Craig and his .928 OPS at 2B. What do you say? You mean Ryan Frankin isn't getting the job done at closer? No sweat. Enter Fernando Salas and his 1.88 ERA, 1.01 WHIP, 30 Ks, 11/12 save/save oppos in 28 IP. Wait, need a set-up man? Enter Edjuardo Sanchez and his 1.95 ERA, 1.08 WHIP, 33 Ks and 5 saves in 27 2/3 IP. Nobody knew who Jaime Garcia was 18 months ago. Now he's one of the top young 25 and under starting pitchers in baseball. David Freese has done nothing but rake the last two years when healthy. That's how you do it. That's why the farm is so important and why I stress that ad nauseum. They're not calling on the Lucas Harrell's, Jeff Marquez's and Dallas McPherson's of the world.

You're absolutely right.

 

But what you fail to address and discuss TIME AND TIME again, is that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

You lose Bobby Jenks? Oh darn, I give you Sergio Santos. You need a a big bat, oh s***, there is Carlos Quentin! I want an athletic shortstop....oh f***, it's Alexei Ramirez. I want a leadoff hitter to replace Juan Pierre and a better defender in the outfield...oh my god, they're coming from everywhere! It's Brent Lillibridge!

 

Two can play at your game.

[Jordan4life_2007]

That team will look completely different if Albert Poo Holes isn't holding it up.

 

Do people really believe he's leaving? I'd say there's about a 1-1.5% chance he bolts. The Yankees, Red Sox and Phillies won't be in the running. The Mets are a fiscal disaster right now. The Cubs are so bad that although they probably could afford him, they won't be able to put anything around him to make it worthwhile. And I don't think Albert would sell-out like that, anyway. It's not a real booming market currently for Pujols' services. If this is 2007 and he's on the verge of FA, then you have a totally different story.

[Jordan4life_2007]

You're absolutely right.

 

But what you fail to address and discuss TIME AND TIME again, is that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

You lose Bobby Jenks? Oh darn, I give you Sergio Santos. You need a a big bat, oh s***, there is Carlos Quentin! I want an athletic shortstop....oh f***, it's Alexei Ramirez. I want a leadoff hitter to replace Juan Pierre and a better defender in the outfield...oh my god, they're coming from everywhere! It's Brent Lillibridge!

 

Two can play at your game.

 

And one team is in first place and the favorite to win their 5th division title since 2004 (with no Wainwright), while the other is below .500 with a $125 million dollar payroll and no farm to speak of. Don't compare us to the Cardinals. There is absolutely no comparison. And lol@ensunating JP is going to get benched for Lillibridge.

Edited June 12, 2011 by Jordan4life

[iamshack]

And one team is in first place and the favorite to win their 5th division title since 2004 (with no Wainwright), while the other is below .500 with a $125 million dollar payroll and no farm to speak of. Don't compare us to the Cardinals. There is absolutely no comparison. And lol@ensunating JP is going to get benched for Lillibridge.

Let's compare where they finish at the end of the year.

 

And how many World Series titles does each organization have in the last 20 years?

 

Why can you NOT get THIS POINT?

 

A strong farm system is not the only way to achieve MLB success. If we are trading or signing cost-controlled, valuable players, it has THE SAME POSITIVE ECONOMIC EFFECT as a strong farm system.

 

They are two different ways of achieving the same goal.

 

Why is one inherently so much more valuable than the other?

[Jordan4life_2007]

Let's compare where they finish at the end of the year.

 

And how many World Series titles does each organization have in the last 20 years?

 

Why can you NOT get THIS POINT?

 

A strong farm system is not the only way to achieve MLB success. If we are trading or signing cost-controlled, valuable players, it has THE SAME POSITIVE ECONOMIC EFFECT as a strong farm system.

 

They are two different ways of achieving the same goal.

 

Why is one inherently so much more valuable than the other?

 

Man, forget about World Series titles. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about consistently putting yourself in position to win World Series titles. The original post you quoted were all moves that's happened with the Cardinals in the last year and a half. You have to go back to 2007 or 2008 or even 2005 for ammo. Just because you made some shrewd moves 3, 4, 5, years ago doesn't mean you just stop. Why is one so inherently different? You tell me. How come we've missed the playoffs 8 times in 10 years in a division that doesn't include the Yankees or Red Sox? It's all about results with me. I really don't care how you do it. But our way has proven to be futile for the most part.

[iamshack]

Man, forget about World Series titles. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about consistently putting yourself in position to win World Series titles. The original post you quoted were all moves that's happened with the Cardinals in the last year and a half. You have to go back to 2007 or 2008 or even 2005 for ammo. Just because you made some shrewd moves 3, 4, 5, years ago doesn't mean you just stop. Why is one so inherently different? You tell me. How come we've missed the playoffs 8 times in 10 years in a division that doesn't include the Yankees or Red Sox? It's all about results with me. I really don't care how you do it. But our way has proven to be futile for the most part.

If you want to talk about the recent history of the Cardinals, they have made the playoffs once in the last 4 years, same as the White Sox. In a s*** division, just like the White Sox.

 

When are you going to recognize you have a ridiculous bias towards the White Sox because you actually watch them? You see our players fail. You only see other teams' players on highlight reels. You know the White Sox organization's faults and problems, but you only selectively follow teams like the Rockies and Royals and Cardinals and whichever other team is your flavor of the month.

 

 

[Balta1701]

If you want to talk about the recent history of the Cardinals, they have made the playoffs once in the last 4 years, same as the White Sox. In a s*** division, just like the White Sox.

I think it's safe to say that the White Sox's farm system has outranked and outproduced the Cardinals farm system for the last 4-ish years.

[iamshack]

I think it's safe to say that the White Sox's farm system has outranked and outproduced the Cardinals farm system for the last 4-ish years.

Can we not just look at farm systems though? The goal is to find productive, cost-controlled players using the least amount of resources possible.

 

How you achieve that is irrelevant as far as I am concerned.

[Balta1701]

Can we not just look at farm systems though? The goal is to find productive, cost-controlled players using the least amount of resources possible.

 

How you achieve that is irrelevant as far as I am concerned.

I agree with you. In that case though I'm trying to engage J4L solely on his standard, which is focused entirely on farm system production.

 

That Cardinals system has, over the past 4 seasons, pretty much produced Colby Rasmus. Over the last decade, they've produced Rasmus, Wainright, Molina, and that's about it. When you go back to the year 2000 though...suddenly you hit that one thing from the 15th round.

 

The Cardinals system has been weak forever, but as you note, they still win.

[witesoxfan]

I agree with you. In that case though I'm trying to engage J4L solely on his standard, which is focused entirely on farm system production.

 

That Cardinals system has, over the past 4 seasons, pretty much produced Colby Rasmus. Over the last decade, they've produced Rasmus, Wainright, Molina, and that's about it. When you go back to the year 2000 though...suddenly you hit that one thing from the 15th round.

 

The Cardinals system has been weak forever, but as you note, they still win.

 

Adam Wainwright has thrown exactly one game in his entire Cardinals career for their AA organization. Every other game has been at AAA or the MLB level. I would honestly say that the Cardinals developed him as much as they did Chris Carpenter, which is to say they changed the way he pitched but didn't physically develop him as a pitcher.

[Balta1701]

Adam Wainwright has thrown exactly one game in his entire Cardinals career for their AA organization. Every other game has been at AAA or the MLB level. I would honestly say that the Cardinals developed him as much as they did Chris Carpenter, which is to say they changed the way he pitched but didn't physically develop him as a pitcher.

Hmph, I didn't realize they hadn't drafted him. In that case, my argument gets even stronger, the only 2 players that St. Louis has genuinely developed for their own organization, under the same stringent standards constantly used here to criticize the Sox's system, since Pujols are Molina and Rasmus. That's over a full decade.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Hmph, I didn't realize they hadn't drafted him. In that case, my argument gets even stronger, the only 2 players that St. Louis has genuinely developed for their own organization, under the same stringent standards constantly used here to criticize the Sox's system, since Pujols are Molina and Rasmus. That's over a full decade.

 

You could also say their farm net them Scott Rolen, Larry Walker and Matt Holliday. And why are you forgetting about Jaime Garcia? He's now proven he was no flash in the pan. I'm not saying the Cards are the Red Sox. But they dwarf the White Sox.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Jordan4life

[Balta1701]

You could also say their farm net them Scott Rolen, Larry Walker and Matt Holliday. And why are you forgetting about Jaime Garcia? He's now proven he was no flash in the pan. I'm not saying the Cards are the Red Sox. But they dwarf the White Sox.

Ok, so the Cardinals farm system gets credit for the guys they've netted...but the White Sox's farm system gets no credit at all for the dozens of guys KW has traded for over the last decade.

 

This is exactly why you piss people off so much with this. The standards you use to praise other people's farm systems are so much more loose than what you use to attack the Sox's system it's not even funny.