Milkman delivers Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 01:58 PM) And you have no idea that this won't delay his progress as a starting pitcher either. No, but we'll take the words and actions of the professionals whose careers revolve around these types of decisions. You, on the other hand, act as if there is no way that they're right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 02:07 PM) No, but we'll take the words and actions of the professionals whose careers revolve around these types of decisions. You, on the other hand, act as if there is no way that they're right. No one knows if they are right or wrong for many years and we can look back at Sale's career. But for the meantime, I think it's an awful plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 02:15 PM) No one knows if they are right or wrong for many years and we can look back at Sale's career. But for the meantime, I think it's an awful plan. It's not that you think it's bad, that's your opinion. It's that you keep talking about it like it's sure to derail his career and that everyone else is a moron for not believing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I think that Mark Buehrle, Adam Wainwright, and David Price turned out okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 02:50 PM) It's not that you think it's bad, that's your opinion. It's that you keep talking about it like it's sure to derail his career and that everyone else is a moron for not believing that. Ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 01:15 PM) No one knows if they are right or wrong for many years and we can look back at Sale's career. But for the meantime, I think it's an awful plan. Because putting the 2011 team in the best position to win games is just terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 03:10 PM) Because putting the 2011 team in the best position to win games is just terrible. .....and around in circles we go..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (knightni @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 01:54 PM) I think that Mark Buehrle, Adam Wainwright, and David Price turned out okay. Price does not belong. His situation is what some are wanting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (sircaffey @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 03:23 PM) Price does not belong. His situation is what some are wanting. I'm saying that those three guys pitched in the bullpen for one year, yet they were still fine with becoming a starter the following year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Sale is still gonna throw a ton of baseballs for us this year. I see no problem with taking some load off his young, still-developing body for a season. Like someone else said, it's not like he's some 25 yr old minors dog finally getting his shot; he's just some kid with a rocket arm- let him throw some baseballs. We have all the time in the world with this kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (knightni @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 02:31 PM) I'm saying that those three guys pitched in the bullpen for one year, yet they were still fine with becoming a starter the following year. I know what you are saying, but Price was brought up during the stretch run in 2008, made a total of 9 appearances from the pen, and was sent back to the minors the following year to continue to start. Exactly what some want Sale to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 12:58 PM) And you have no idea that this won't delay his progress as a starting pitcher either. No, neither of us know if this will help or hinder his development as a starter but I do know that this is the best situation for our team this year so it makes the most sense by far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 04:11 PM) No, neither of us know if this will help or hinder his development as a starter but I do know that this is the best situation for our team this year so it makes the most sense by far. I don't think anyone is arguing that this is the best choice for 2011 (actually, him starting for Peavy, and then going to the bullpen is probably the best situation for 2011), it's the debate about if this sacrifices our future or not. You (probably) don't think it does, while I on the other hand think it will. That's the only issue at hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Personally, I would rather have Sale learning from Coop as a reliever in Chicago than starting in AAA. Even if he is a reliever this year, he is learning the ropes of the majors and the players, so that next year when he transitions to starter he can do that smooth. Any ML experience is better than AAA experience IMO. Wainwright is probably the best comparison for him albeit he did it at an older age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 03:03 PM) Ok. Alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (knightni @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 03:31 PM) I'm saying that those three guys pitched in the bullpen for one year, yet they were still fine with becoming a starter the following year. Buehrle started 30 minor league games over 1 1/2 seasons before being called up and relieving for half a season. By the start of 2012, Sale will have started exactly 0 minor league games and logged 1 1/2 seasons in the bullpen. I think Buehrle's 30 games started and 1 1/2 years or starting in the minors helped him make that change. Sale will have 0 games started and 0 years of starting before he makes the change. And Adam Wainright was a starter in the minors for 6 years before getting called up and pitching 1 year of relief. Edited February 18, 2011 by JoeCoolMan24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I would rather have Sale filling in for Peavy and then starting in the minors or moving to the pen depending on what our needs are, but I won't really complain about this move. Partially it's because I don't want to risk my head bitten off, and partially it's because I want to actually win something this year as bad as everybody else does. However, I think people around here need to stop pretending like 2012 doesn't exist as if we were in some bad movie about Mayan prophecies. We might have quite a few question marks in next year's rotation when you consider Buehrle and Jackson being in their last years and Peavy's injury concerns (and John Danks's contract down the line for that matter). I would not be surprised at all to see Sale fall of a cliff towards the end of next year because he's just not used to pitching many innings, and of course there are also the studies that show a large increase in innings pitched has a correlation to arm injuries. Obviously, nobody really knows what will happen next year, but this logic of "the next year doesn't matter because we're still in this year" is the exact reason we have a bereft farm system and had to spend an extra $30 million on this year's payroll to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 04:41 PM) However, I think people around here need to stop pretending like 2012 doesn't exist as if we were in some bad movie about Mayan prophecies. We might have quite a few question marks in next year's rotation when you consider Buehrle and Jackson being in their last years and Peavy's injury concerns (and John Danks's contract down the line for that matter). I would not be surprised at all to see Sale fall of a cliff towards the end of next year because he's just not used to pitching many innings, and of course there are also the studies that show a large increase in innings pitched has a correlation to arm injuries. Obviously, nobody really knows what will happen next year, but this logic of "the next year doesn't matter because we're still in this year" is the exact reason we have a bereft farm system and had to spend an extra $30 million on this year's payroll to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPickle Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 03:32 PM) And Adam Wainright was a starter in the minors for 8 years before getting called up and pitching 1 year of relief. Uhh...no he wasn't. Edited February 18, 2011 by TomPickle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 The other way to look at that problem is... If the White Sox fail to win the AL Central this year, they are likely to lose money. They might still remain profitable if they can stay in it to the end, but they literally are banking on a combination of extra butts in the seats from being in the race and playoff revenue in order to break even/turn a profit this year. It's a reasonable gamble with this roster. If you're looking at 2012...Sale will probably be a better starter if he starts at least some this year. BUT...if the White Sox do not win the AL Central this year, there is likely to be a non-trivial payroll cut going into 2012 as well. Possibly at the level of 3 of the 5 names in our starting rotation being gone. If putting Chris Sale on the roster this year winds up being a major factor in the Sox winning the central, the added ticket sales/revenue will make the White Sox a better team in 2012, even if Sale struggles some transitioning back to starting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (TomPickle @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 05:16 PM) Uhh...no he wasn't. Sorry, 6 years. Point is still the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 03:23 PM) I don't think anyone is arguing that this is the best choice for 2011 (actually, him starting for Peavy, and then going to the bullpen is probably the best situation for 2011), it's the debate about if this sacrifices our future or not. You (probably) don't think it does, while I on the other hand think it will. That's the only issue at hand. Not sure how anyone could really think that it wouldn't hinder Sale's 2012 performance as a SP. Transitioning from an amateur SP to a pro SP isn't just about having the talent to do so. The Sox will be relying on a SP that has never gone through a starter's pro preparation (most notably, starting on 4 days rest). It's a dangerous proposition. There will be a lot of inconsistent and short starts early on from Sale, a reason why I would be in favor of him starting 2012 in the minors. As far as long-term, this doesn't hinder him at all, but short-term it absolutely does, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 04:19 PM) The other way to look at that problem is... If the White Sox fail to win the AL Central this year, they are likely to lose money. They might still remain profitable if they can stay in it to the end, but they literally are banking on a combination of extra butts in the seats from being in the race and playoff revenue in order to break even/turn a profit this year. It's a reasonable gamble with this roster. If you're looking at 2012...Sale will probably be a better starter if he starts at least some this year. BUT...if the White Sox do not win the AL Central this year, there is likely to be a non-trivial payroll cut going into 2012 as well. Possibly at the level of 3 of the 5 names in our starting rotation being gone. If putting Chris Sale on the roster this year winds up being a major factor in the Sox winning the central, the added ticket sales/revenue will make the White Sox a better team in 2012, even if Sale struggles some transitioning back to starting. True, but the next question becomes whether or not you actually need sale for a full season in the bullpen to accomplish that. Personally, I'm fine with the decision, and you list some very good reasons to be for it as well. I just think that maybe people should remember that this "all in" philosophy is kind of what made this season make or break to begin with instead of immediately snapping at somebody who suggests maybe we should think about the future at least a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Feb 18, 2011 -> 06:57 PM) True, but the next question becomes whether or not you actually need sale for a full season in the bullpen to accomplish that. Personally, I'm fine with the decision, and you list some very good reasons to be for it as well. I just think that maybe people should remember that this "all in" philosophy is kind of what made this season make or break to begin with instead of immediately snapping at somebody who suggests maybe we should think about the future at least a little. Honestly...when I look at the Sox's bullpen, and I look at the kind of money guys like Soriano got, Benoit got...Sale in the bullpen is a better option than signing someone. It isn't necessarily the best option...but spending a ton of money to fill that hole would have hamstrung us even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swingandalongonetoleft Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 My gut says Sale will never be a starter, at least not an effective one. We'll see I guess. Hope I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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